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Thanks for the responses. I gotta say I've found speed mob a joy to play. Based on chats here I binned speed king (and as a result decided to go single detachment) and found the removal of auras freeing. I don't hate the limitation of units and strats especially in a competitive tournament style game with a clock where time is of the essence. I never have any CPs left by T4 anyway which im ok with.

I get why people want more options but I've found the choice I have to make is on which unit I use the specific strats. I don't know about others but my speed mob strat list is.

3cp place planes in reserve
1cp drive by dakka (3/4 times a game)
2cp ramming speed
1cp crashing through (2/3 times a game)
2cp chaaarge
1cp blitza dakka (1/2 times in a game)
2cp auto pass morale
2cp attack out of the sun

I also have the following in my back pocket
1cp more gitz over here (fall back and shoot)
2cp Breaking heads
2cp orks is never beaten
1cp tide of muscle
2cp cloud of smoke
2cp more dakka

In a competitive game I just don't know if I'd want any more because I know I won't remember them.

Completely agree with you.
Speedmob is fun to play and fast enough for a tournament.

I used to play Speedking but yes, it's a pain to keep your Units in.
I rather try to screen / engage which does not work well together with the aura.
I'm also fond of 1 detachment for the extra CP and thus prefer to take I've got a plan lads for free Wazbom reserve.

About the strats I feel mostly the same. Sometimes autopass, often ramming speed / crushing through, reroll shot number on the Wazbom, blitza dakka, more Gits over here, tellyporta, tactical awareness and blitza dakka are my most used ones.

I've decided to skip the Alphork list for the next tournament as it's really time consuming and exhausting.

Had another game today against Tau crisis spam with 3 Broadsides with Speedmob.

Trike, 3 Scrapjets, 3 Squigbuggies, 3 Dragsta, 2 KBB, 1 Snazzwagon, 9 Bikes, 2 Wazboms.
Again I did not really miss the Koptas, the Bikes helped a lot with scoring.
I was still able to screen out until turn 3 against his deepstriking Crisis and had again stuff in reserve: 3 Dragstas and 2 Wazboms in strategic reserve and the Scrapjets in tellyporta.

I was able to win 60:59 but got tabled turn 5.
Killed the Broadsides, 8 Crisis, lots of Drones and most of his Kroot.
Tau isn't that bad of a matchup if you properly screen out your backfield.
Got 0 VP on Assassinate, 12 on Stranglehold and 10 on no prisoners. If its 5 markers Stranglehold is far better than engage, this one depends highly on the mission.

Not sure if I should skip the Snazzwagon for 2 x 5 Bikes instead to have a better angle at actions.
It was quite tanky today with its natural -1 to hit and got me at least 8 VP with surviving some shooting!

Squigbuggies have been doin some chipping but I think I could reduce them to a squad of 5...
Scrapjets and Dragstas again super solid damage dealers and Scrapjets & KBB have been doing a good amount of MW's.

Have a little bit of time for the rematch today, so I'm gonna see what I'll come up with.

Absolutely agree. Speed mob is fast and fun!

And skipping the auras is great! Real freedome!

I skipped the Cloud of Smoke for the simmilar reason (and for the price tag) too. If you have half of the units in DS and the half of the rest has in-built Cloud of smoke for free, why pay 2CP to protect 3 buggies….

Fun is, how many variations of Speed Mob is available. First time I saw the rules, it was like “there is one awailable built”. Hohoho, I was so wrong…

You really play Blitza Dakka? On what occasion?

Mostly on the Wazbom if I get to come in under 12".
Sometimes my 2 Boosta Blastas if I have the CP to blow or REALLY need to do all the damage I can.

Yeah Speedmob has more depth than I initially thought.

Yeah, man can really focus on movement / positioning / locking in CC / scoring. And you can actualy move, not sitting like a castle.

I really just wish nobs on bikes would get updated to get the special rules… what speed mob lacks is just a decent melee unit beyond scrapjets..
5x nobs on bikes with big choppas l with the ability to turn 1 charge in speed mob and the charge strat would be an extremely helpful unit in this meta.
20x str8 ap-2 dam2 hits @ ws3 is needed in speed mob.
It would be a also fairly durable unit at 4+/5++ (-1 to hit at range only) and t5/20w.

Ya blitza dakka is great with a deep stike unit. Saving a CP for wazbomms is interesting although it's only for one d6 shots.

The stikkbom chukka would get to reroll 2d6 though and honestly it's not terrible with the -1ap (against tau and eldar anyway)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I really just wish nobs on bikes would get updated to get the special rules… what speed mob lacks is just a decent melee unit beyond scrapjets..
5x nobs on bikes with big choppas l with the ability to turn 1 charge in speed mob and the charge strat would be an extremely helpful unit in this meta.
20x str8 ap-2 dam2 hits @ ws3 is needed in speed mob.
It would be a also fairly durable unit at 4+/5++ (-1 to hit at range only) and t5/20w.

Deffkoptas are no slouch in combat especially in a large enough unit of 5/6. While swingy the mortal wound strat can rock and you can use the fly to jump over any bubble wrap to target characters (with the mortal wounds)

Does a Deff Dread equipped with 4 Dread Klaws get 12 attacks total?

eeeh.. If my memory serves me correct it gets 7.

You have 3 attacks standard i believe, +1 for each arm which is 4. 3+4 is 7.

Why would it get 12?

Garukadon wrote:
Does a Deff Dread equipped with 4 Dread Klaws get 12 attacks total?

3 attacks base with +1 attack for each klaw the dread has.

Garukadon wrote:
Does a Deff Dread equipped with 4 Dread Klaws get 12 attacks total?

Only 7 +1 if you have mellee waagh. We're not nids to get so many attacks.

im guessing he thought "makes 1 extra attack" meant the entire combat sequence, so 3x4=12

"Attack" is specifically 1 die rolling to hit, wound, save, damage. 40k is worded to technically be rolled 1 die at a time, its just generally bulk-rolled because it usually doesnt matter (keyword, usually)

Hmmm so satisfying!

So i had 3 games total against Tau yesterday and was able to win all 3 of them. All games were against Crisis heavy list with 3 Broadsides.
I slightly changed my BA Speedmob each game and ended up with 5 + 5 + 4 Warbikes but otherwise similar to my last posted BA Speedmob lists.


A few more things i noticed that might help against Tau, mainly if you play Speedmob:


My favourite new tool is tellyporting the 3 Scrapjets! It has done so much damage, is a great allrounder unit and tends to get most of the opponents dakka if they can get their hands an them. I`ve put them in strategic reserve as well before via ive got a plan together with the two Wazboms, put found it too much restricting where they can come in.

Instead i put my Dragstas in strategic reserve and went down from 3 -> 2 in my last two games. It`s really hard to get a spot for 3 of them and unlike the Scrapjets they don`t mind coming in 24" away and just shoot. My Scrapjets want to charge after tellyporting a lot.

KBB are my personal underestimated unit. Their main gun really isn`t that great but at least offers more range, which is a problem sometimes for all our 24" guns. Overall it offers a fantastic package with the spiked ram, the 4 flamers and medium movement. Yesterday they killed a commander that thought he could be sneaky being protected by bodyguard crisis in a ruin behind him, but with ramming speed & chrashing through he got rammed to death faster than he could say Montka.
KBB is also a good unit to hang around midfield, threaten stuff and screen out your other stuff. And they are quite cheap!

I was a big fan of the mono detachment for the extra CP, but right now i`m leaning back towards double detachment.
For one i`m gonna skip Koptas and they were my most CP expensive unit and BA offer a few tools for extra CP.
But having more units felt actually really comfortable for screening, engaging and scoring.


Warbikers are a must have for me. I played Speedmob a LOT the last months and while the buggy heavy lists have some really solid output, you score less and loose good units faster. Especially against Tau those 3 units were pure gold for me.


Little sidenote about scoring: You don`t need to score good - you need to score more than you opponent. While that is kinda obvious it helped me a lot to fokus more on denying the opponents VP. My games yesterday went 60:59, 66:62 and 79:52. (Without battleready bonus)
I was trying very hard to deny RND, used Bikes to prevent banners, sacrificed 2 KBB for a 8 VP swing and so on. 2 of my games i actually went for 4 safe RND points and used my Bikes afterwards just for denying the opponents VP instead for 4 more RND points which in the end was worth it, as they managed to reduce his scoring by more than 4.
Also i rather go for secondaries that might not max out but will give my a few safe VP. No prisoners against Tau is the perfekt example. With proper screening and using his Airburst units good i might score pretty low, but it also has a good chance on spiking and chances of 0 points are pretty low, which can happen for stuff like Good bitz.
My only bad secondary was assassinate on which i scored 0 in my first game and still won.
Oh and not having Koptas is keeping the bring it down score pretty low, especially when 9 of those ~15-16 VP come in from reserve. In my games yesterday the opponent maxed it out just once and i was using some of my vehicles very aggressively.


Overall i think 2 detachments will help a bit more with scoring, while mono detachment will have a little more damage output.
Gonna have 1 or 2 more games tomorrow to finalise my tournament list (needs to be submitted by end of the week).

My general idea / favourite right now:

2 BA detachments with Trike, Warboss, 3 Scrapjets, 2-3 KBB, 2 Dragstas, 2 Squigbuggies, 1 Snazzwagon, 2 Wazboms, 3 x Bikes.
Would like to have 2 squads of 5 Bikers for some RND reliability, put it`s really tough to free the last points here...

General idea is to tellyport in the Scrapjets, put 2 Wazboms and Dragstas in reserve for free and use the Bikes, Snazzwagon, Squigbuggies, KBB and 2 HQ`s for preparing screening, securing home objectives and get in some early chip damage. Thought about putting the KBB in reserve as well or instead of the dragstas, but then you don`t get anything out of the burnas until turn 3-4 and they feel like they wanna be midboard early on.
Turn 2 & 3 depend on opponent and mission, but i should be able to get most of the dakka where it hurts and cripple the opponent.

Turn 4-5 cleanup duty, final scoring and play the mission.

That kind of Beta strike army has been really fun and worked a lot better than my Speedmob that went aggressive turn 1 with Koptas and the other stuff on board.

Holy christ, have you guys seen the new Harlequins army? Their Sniper literally 1 shots all of our characters except Ghaz and beastboss's.

Their heavy support Voidweavers are...ridiculous. They make Chickenwalkers look balanced by comparison.

Shadowseer is 100pts and makes weirdboyz look like trash...well they kind of are trash but still

This is going to shake up the meta boyz. I suggest you get ready to hide characters and such out of LOS of these guys.

SemperMortis wrote:
Holy christ, have you guys seen the new Harlequins army? Their Sniper literally 1 shots all of our characters except Ghaz and beastboss's.

Their heavy support Voidweavers are...ridiculous. They make Chickenwalkers look balanced by comparison.

Shadowseer is 100pts and makes weirdboyz look like trash...well they kind of are trash but still

This is going to shake up the meta boyz. I suggest you get ready to hide characters and such out of LOS of these guys.

Yep, have you seen the rest of Eldari?

Here's a game of Harlequinns vs Orks, finals btw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GXHY2QoX6Y&t=5141s

I saw superficially because i did not enjoy the format, but orks barely scratched the paint

Question
would you consider FIGHT DETECTA an aura ability?

I faced some new Eldar - Biel Tan or what - week ago and nothing serious. I won +20p againts experienced opponent (playing his second game with them however).

This is some new eldar stuff you speak about?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What I found interesting today however are the new knights datasheets. Arminger 24attacks 7-1 1?

If something could be bad for the orl SpeedMob, than it ´ s the rise of knights that creates the rise of heavy antitank…

 Grotrebel wrote:
So i had 3 games total against Tau yesterday and was able to win all 3 of them. All games were against Crisis heavy list with 3 Broadsides.
I slightly changed my BA Speedmob each game and ended up with 5 + 5 + 4 Warbikes but otherwise similar to my last posted BA Speedmob lists.


A few more things i noticed that might help against Tau, mainly if you play Speedmob:


My favourite new tool is tellyporting the 3 Scrapjets! It has done so much damage, is a great allrounder unit and tends to get most of the opponents dakka if they can get their hands an them. I`ve put them in strategic reserve as well before via ive got a plan together with the two Wazboms, put found it too much restricting where they can come in.

Instead i put my Dragstas in strategic reserve and went down from 3 -> 2 in my last two games. It`s really hard to get a spot for 3 of them and unlike the Scrapjets they don`t mind coming in 24" away and just shoot. My Scrapjets want to charge after tellyporting a lot.

KBB are my personal underestimated unit. Their main gun really isn`t that great but at least offers more range, which is a problem sometimes for all our 24" guns. Overall it offers a fantastic package with the spiked ram, the 4 flamers and medium movement. Yesterday they killed a commander that thought he could be sneaky being protected by bodyguard crisis in a ruin behind him, but with ramming speed & chrashing through he got rammed to death faster than he could say Montka.
KBB is also a good unit to hang around midfield, threaten stuff and screen out your other stuff. And they are quite cheap!

I was a big fan of the mono detachment for the extra CP, but right now i`m leaning back towards double detachment.
For one i`m gonna skip Koptas and they were my most CP expensive unit and BA offer a few tools for extra CP.
But having more units felt actually really comfortable for screening, engaging and scoring.


Warbikers are a must have for me. I played Speedmob a LOT the last months and while the buggy heavy lists have some really solid output, you score less and loose good units faster. Especially against Tau those 3 units were pure gold for me.


Little sidenote about scoring: You don`t need to score good - you need to score more than you opponent. While that is kinda obvious it helped me a lot to fokus more on denying the opponents VP. My games yesterday went 60:59, 66:62 and 79:52. (Without battleready bonus)
I was trying very hard to deny RND, used Bikes to prevent banners, sacrificed 2 KBB for a 8 VP swing and so on. 2 of my games i actually went for 4 safe RND points and used my Bikes afterwards just for denying the opponents VP instead for 4 more RND points which in the end was worth it, as they managed to reduce his scoring by more than 4.
Also i rather go for secondaries that might not max out but will give my a few safe VP. No prisoners against Tau is the perfekt example. With proper screening and using his Airburst units good i might score pretty low, but it also has a good chance on spiking and chances of 0 points are pretty low, which can happen for stuff like Good bitz.
My only bad secondary was assassinate on which i scored 0 in my first game and still won.
Oh and not having Koptas is keeping the bring it down score pretty low, especially when 9 of those ~15-16 VP come in from reserve. In my games yesterday the opponent maxed it out just once and i was using some of my vehicles very aggressively.


Overall i think 2 detachments will help a bit more with scoring, while mono detachment will have a little more damage output.
Gonna have 1 or 2 more games tomorrow to finalise my tournament list (needs to be submitted by end of the week).

My general idea / favourite right now:

2 BA detachments with Trike, Warboss, 3 Scrapjets, 2-3 KBB, 2 Dragstas, 2 Squigbuggies, 1 Snazzwagon, 2 Wazboms, 3 x Bikes.
Would like to have 2 squads of 5 Bikers for some RND reliability, put it`s really tough to free the last points here...

General idea is to tellyport in the Scrapjets, put 2 Wazboms and Dragstas in reserve for free and use the Bikes, Snazzwagon, Squigbuggies, KBB and 2 HQ`s for preparing screening, securing home objectives and get in some early chip damage. Thought about putting the KBB in reserve as well or instead of the dragstas, but then you don`t get anything out of the burnas until turn 3-4 and they feel like they wanna be midboard early on.
Turn 2 & 3 depend on opponent and mission, but i should be able to get most of the dakka where it hurts and cripple the opponent.

Turn 4-5 cleanup duty, final scoring and play the mission.

That kind of Beta strike army has been really fun and worked a lot better than my Speedmob that went aggressive turn 1 with Koptas and the other stuff on board.

Good write up dude. My beta stike and enemy objective denial strategy is very similar to yours although I've gone the almost max bike and almost max deffkopta in a mono ES route.

In regards to the new Quin super sniper, it's another reason to only take one character (does the sniper rule work on vehicles btw?)

I'll hold judgement on the knights codex until it's official especially after the "remove Trajan" fake dataslate that raised and dashed my hopes in the space of a few hours. My conspiracy theory is that GW released it to screw with people after the huge nid leak.

The sniper rule works for everything. It just gets to ignore Look out sir. So no character protection against that sniper. And, because Eldar don't follow any normal rules, its incredibly hard to get out of LOS of the damn thing because it can just flip around the battlefield.

Speedmob does not really care about Snipers.
My Warboss is mainly on scoring duty with his build in ObSec and 2 /3 of the last games I simply used him for Stranglehold/ scoring and he almost never lives to see turn 2-3. No relics or traits as well, its just not worth it for me.

The Wartrike is simply there for I've got a plan lads and otherwise its just a bad buggy.
He often uses his 23" boost for scoring and sometimes gives me a few CP with da finkin cap before.
I rather have any other Buggy survive 1 more round.


Had another game yesterday and man it went bad. This time my Tau buddy went for 5 + 5 + 3 + 3 Crisis, 2 x Stealthsuits, 2 x Ghostkeels and the usual HQ's and Kroot support.
He felt really bad for me because this must have been the worst I ever rolled with my shooting and after I killed a whole 2 Drones, 8 Kroot and barely 1 Ghostkeel turn 1 and 2 it was game over for me.
Lost 100:54 but still my Orks have a solid winrate against Tau with 8:4.

Those Ghostkeels and Stealth Suits are really tough to shift for orks, especially if there is dense cover as well and everything besides the Wazboms hits on a 6.


@CaptainO: Yeah I think the beta Strike is the way to go unless you face something where you can deploy everything safely even if you go second.

And yes, Warbikers are pure gold. I tried 5 + 5 + 3 yesterday to have the points for 2 Wazboms, 3 Scrapjets, 3 KBB, 2 Dragstas, 2 Squigbuggies and 1 Snazzwagon. But afterwards I definitely had preferred more bikes.
So I guess my tournament list will go back to 2 KBB and 3 x 5 Bikes instead again.^^

ES are definitely the way to go if you want to play Kopta heavy and I like that list a lot as well.
But right now using them feels to restricting for me and a am pretty confident about playing the BA Speedmob who had a lot more practice games.

ES are for sure the better take if you want to plan for TTL but I had a few really bad games with TTL and Speedmob. Depends heavily on the opponent of course but I think the top tier armies right now are all capable of denying TTL points.
Have you guys had more success with TTL in Speedmob?
Secondaries is still my biggest problem, especially in Missions with 6 objectives and against armies that don't five up a lot of killing secondaries.
Tau is ok with no prisoners but Custodes is really breaking my head.
It's definitely possible to score 6 VP on No prisoners if you can kill enough bikes and a bit of infantry, but it's near impossible to score 10+ here...


About the Knight stuff I wouldn't worry to much, I think that's fake like the "balance sheet" recently.
I doubt Knights will become that big of a problem as it gives away good Primaries and does not score that well.
I think Speedmob will loose models in the trading game but will still score better.
I'm more afraid of nids right now, as they are good in scoring and it looks like even the small stuff will become good in taking out Speedmob units fast.

 kingbbobb wrote:
Question
would you consider FIGHT DETECTA an aura ability?

If it doesn't say (Aura) it's not an aura. While that is super inconsistent across codices and abilities, any other interpretation would break the game.

I have very good experience with TTL and ES Speedmob. Mostly 15. Two koptas and 3 squigbuggies.

The other secondaries I use are following:

1. Engage (sometimes Stranglehold, in very wide deploy and slow opponent army Behind occasionaly too). Mostly something about 8-12VP
2. Bitz / Homers. Depend on the opponent or mission. But the ultimate plan is go for 3x8warbikers and simply do the Data. I just need the time to do another bikers.

Custodes - well, in my experience, you need the secondaries that scores outside the objective and without killing opponent. TTL. Engage, Data are the best. “Just” kill the bikers and run away and score.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After pretty boring CI from the last week, there is pretty interesting new issue. Full article here:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-the-three-ursine-hypothesis/

So who do the Waaaagh?

PCG Hosts Lightly Salted Spring GT - Richard Killtone 4th - pretty interesting heavy Meganobz Deathskull list


The Calm Before The Storm, Haven 40k Grand Tournament - Don Maddock 3rd - Goff preasure list


Copenhammer GT III - Andreas Drachmann - 6th - Freeboota SpeedMob with some Koptas, small biker squads and a lot of various buggies


Last of the Summer Winehammer - Paul Martin 8th - well, that is Blood Axe everything. Buggies, Meganobz, Squighog boyz. Full pot of stew


Confrontation Redemption - Alex Powell 6th - Goff preasure list

Some of those "GTs" were as small as 39 people.

I'd take some of that data with a grain of "Light Salt".

tulun wrote:
Some of those "GTs" were as small as 39 people.

I'd take some of that data with a grain of "Light Salt".

Well, they're basically the same archetypes that we're playing since months, I don't really see anything new in these lists. Also, their placements don't look unreasonable to achieve.

 Jidmah wrote:

 kingbbobb wrote:
Question
would you consider FIGHT DETECTA an aura ability?

If it doesn't say (Aura) it's not an aura. While that is super inconsistent across codices and abilities, any other interpretation would break the game.

So you would view speed king as NOT being an Aura ability either?
It doesn't say (Aura)

Yes, because there is no real guidance to what is an aura and what is not - no matter how you interpret the BRB definition for aura you find rules contradicting that interpretation.

Because GW has been so sloppy with applying (Aura) especially to relics and warlord traits, it's not longer possible to guess any intention behind it either.

If you start making all abilities aura that have a range and affect multiple models in an area, not only do you not have any rules to support that, but you also run into weird edge cases, so the only real option is to play this by the book.

Of course, as always, clarifying this with a TO or opponent before the game is the superior option.

 Blackie wrote:

tulun wrote:
Some of those "GTs" were as small as 39 people.

I'd take some of that data with a grain of "Light Salt".

Well, they're basically the same archetypes that we're playing since months, I don't really see anything new in these lists. Also, their placements don't look unreasonable to achieve.

Well, I don' t want to be ugly to anybody, but for the most of the people such placements are hard to achieve. Inclunding me for example

And I don' t agree either with “nothing new”. There is definitely no new “direction to go” but if you make a stat month by month, you see a developement in the list builds. Examples:

In last period of ork rules (since nerf bat + nachmud speed mob November 21) there are two builds that are common. Speed Mob and something called goff presure list, ehich is actually prety wild and wide groupe of lists.

Speed Mob is developing. On begining, everybody played ES koptas. A lot of koptas. And freebootas were called death. And a lot of people was afraid to play Attakc out of da Sun RAW. Now, there is obvious tendence to play AOODS RAW without hesitation and play just one (or none) squads of Koptas. And more small squads of buggies. This mean also a decline of TTL designed lists. And Freebootas are rising. That is a fresh new situation from last month or something.

Goff preasure list used to be based on Killrigs and Boyz. Or BSBoyz. Now, no killrigs at all but a lot of MANz.

Deathskull MANz list or Blood Axe goulash list from CI are definitely not something we saw in last few months. That is a new variation.


And last but not least - I want to see (and show) how orks stands in todays meta. One CI is not a stat but if you filtre down my posts, you see a stat. And what you see is, that pro-players quited the orks, but despite this fact, we are still able to score high. Just the core ork players plays the orks, so the stat is little bit wild, but we can score.

For me it is importat. If I see some Rich Kiltone is able to be 4th on aprox. 40 people tournament in Utah with Orks, where the comunity is much stronger than here in Prague, I see I should play harder. I cannot excuse my results by a “bad GW that is ugly to orks”. Or I shall stick to my plan win the painting competition

.. and I can be ugly to guys moaning about how orks are beaten, beacuse thanks to that I see, that we can place pretty well just from the core-ork players base.

CI is the best we have. Their Ork-lists analysis are crazy but they know the other armies well. And you see the stats. You see, what the meta is. And if there is CI full of Tau /Eldar / Custodes = crazy new codexes + orks after all nerfs without Mani Cheemas and such dudes. Well, this is cool.

Goff list and orks would have been fine in this meta without the point hikes to Killrig, kommandos, squigboss… they really weren’t that over priced and it made a more varied ork list.. the buggy points hike would have been fine even without the 1 unit limit to buggies or at worst a 3 model limit…

gungo wrote:
Goff list and orks would have been fine in this meta without the point hikes to Killrig, kommandos, squigboss… they really weren’t that over priced and it made a more varied ork list.. the buggy points hike would have been fine even without the 1 unit limit to buggies or at worst a 3 model limit…

Buggies - the option to split the buggies will be very cool. And potentialy strong. Big weakness of the Speed Mob is low unit count - screening, hiding, scoring engage etc. - and generaly - moving large squads of buggies is pain. In fact you criple them a lot. Even with some advance, if you want to move squad of 3 scrapjets, the last one on the end of the squad goes around the ruins totaly crazy way, so he' s pretty much behind the corner. Squads of 2 are fine. But squad of 3 is pain. Plus of course, big squads = very good damage distribution for your opponents fire. Before the masive overkilling of single buggy was a great way how to protect your buggies. Not anymore.

This is btw. one of the big pros the WARBIKERS have. All the D3+3 shots are more or less wasted on 3W models. The same with D2 weapons. And -1 to hit is definitely better protection than T5->T6 and the rest is the same. I skip Ramshackle because I don't even remember, when I used it the last time…. Everybody use S8+ weapons or D1 weapons. All this for 70% price per wound. That is the reason why they are a real survival monkeys.