Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics

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**Afrodactyl**

Scactha wrote:
Tomsug wrote:
2. Fail is try to shoot them at all. Just blok their movement. That is all you need. You need to score. Not to kill some baroque angels. So yes, they gonna kill the bikers. And what? They scored, mission sucessful. If you play bikers as FB, they will be able to steal the custards the objective (and drop their banner they usually play) too via Badskull Banner. Mess for a turn that can make a difference about 9VP at least.

QFT. It´s so tiresome to read all this "but it doesn´t kill stuff!!!" in every unit assessment when scoring has so little do do with it and VP wins games. You should approach army building with a scoring plan first and then how to fight/survive long enough. Going in with the attitude "I´ll kill everything and then score whatever" is asking for a loss.

I win half the games at my club because of this mindset. So many players show up and go "Eeeh, I´ll pick whatever." and then get surprised when they lose. "But, but, I killed SO much...".

It's an interesting thought. I've definitely won more games since moving over to focus on scoring from just killing everything dead.

Even moreso I've found to be preventing scoring to be the main game winner for me. I've had games won where I've barely killed anything at all and the VPs are trickling in, but my movement has been great and I've prevented them from scoring that way. Sometimes you prevent scoring by annihilating what's on the other side of the table and you clean up for four turns. You don't need to dominate each game, you just have to nab a few more VPs than the opponent.

We definitely have one thing going for us at the moment; our main scoring units at the moment (kommandos, bikes, koptas, etc) are all pretty fast, pretty durable (compared to other Ork options), and all quite reasonably priced. We can load up on stuff that does well at the objective game and still have plenty of points for stuff that does damage.

We just have to make tweaks here and there to get by and after a few more books we will go back to being the anti-meta choice, which is where Orks have always been best. Let them dull our teeth a little whilst the Custodes and Tau prance about, but we'll be back and no one will be ready for us.

**Tomsug**

Yeah, it' s all about the scoring and deny scoring plan. And speaking about Speed Mob the warbikers are pure gold.

Grotrebel thinks about the number of bikers - in my experience, you need as much squads as possible. I even play all HQ as bikers and it' s great. That gives you 5 obsec misiles - very good base for scoring. I hate the people who see it and kill the bikers first.

Regarding the number of bikers in the squad - sorry, but I 'm afraid, you should really fix it as you suggest

Because I have following experience:

3 bikers in the squad - bad. Die too fast.
4 bikers - very good. Great ROI. Usually the average “voley” kills 3 bikers and the boss survive and score later. The squad is still reasonable small to hide if necessary and already big enough to make about 16” line 1,1” in front of marching terminators or other non-flying units.
5 - bad. Already suffer with morale and just bigger. Plays the same role like squad of 4 but for the bigger price. not big enough to score data.
6-7- better. It already scores data, but just one killed and you can fail in scoring. And already suffer for blast
8-9 - very good but pretty expensive. And huge on the table. Suffer for morale and blast but who cares. It takes a huge ammount of the time to kill such stuff. Especialy the huge bastards with D3+3 damage scream while wasting almost half of their damage on every bloody biker. Burning 2CP for morale autopass for the last surviving Nob Biker the be still on the objective is the reward on the end. Say hallo to the Silent King - he is the average result of the duel of 9bikers vs. him. Don' t even speak about the screening line such mob can create. However, the price is already pretty steep.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm that was pretty fast. GW found, that 96% win rate of Harleis (Adepticon except mirror matches) is not great and they maybe do something with it…

"You can therefore expect imminent tweaks and changes to the Harlequins in particular – they’ll remain an awesome faction, but other factions will find them more fun to play against, and Aeldari players will see them support a wider variety of army lists in competitive settings."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/04/metawatch-40000-the-harlequins-performance-stole-the-show-at-adepticon/

**CaptainO**

Played my ES speedmob list

Spoiler:

against custodes for the second time (emperor's chosen. With the 4+ against mortals) in mission 22 "Conversion"

While I wouldn't say it was impossible for me to win, it would have required me to play the perfect game to win which I didn't. Finished 52-87

The custodes "stance" that gives them +1s against vehicles wrecks ramshackle (it brings the bikes from s7 to s8.

I found that while engage and RND are easy to score RnD requires your unit to be 6" from other table quarters which means you can score the primary objectives.

I'm going to slightly tweak the list by replacing the wartrike for a warbike. While this doesn't seem like much it changes my go to secondaries from RnD and engage to Deploy teleport Homer and Behind enemy lines.

I don't know whether to give my warboss on warbike faster than yous or Ard as nails as a trait. I intend to use him to score Deploy teleport Homer and Behind enemy lines so the added toughness is good but the ability to threated a 20" +2d6 charge is nice especially against tau. I'll also give him the redder armour as my relic. Thoughts welcome.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also lost my only hq in the custodes game T2 which left me 4 CP down due to the mission special rule

**Jidmah**

Blackie wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

True, but I am talking about Competitive meta, specifically the tournament scene. And Harlies came out shortly before the GT I went to, and every single Harlequins player was rocking 9.

If you are talking friendly games....its irrelevant, I would just refuse to play against a harlequins player who showed up to a friendly game with 9 voidweavers

I was talking about competitive metas. How many ork players did actually field 9 squigbuggies and 5 flyers back when they outraged other players? Not every ork players fielded that build, probably not even the majority of ork players attending tournaments. And ork players are much more than harlequins ones.

I really don't see harlequins players jumping to buy 6-9 voidweavers just because they're the flavour of the month NOW. We all know they're not gonna last for long. Only some hardcore meta chasers will get them, and even in tournaments those kind of guys aren't the majority. So they'll certainly show up regularly but it's not like they'll become a common build to face everytime someone goes to a tournament.

Maybe big events are even more hardcore oriented than common local tournaments and in such places it might be common to face those 9 voidweavers, though.

Uhm, star weavers and void weavers are the same model, and if you have a harlequin player who regularly plays 3k games or larger, they can easily pull that many models from their regular collection..

**Beardedragon**

Alright so the GT is over and i did not do as well as i was hoping. Ive decided to put my report in spoilers to not take up too much room.

My list was:

Spoiler:

Battle 1:Loss
First battle was my biggest loss, and it was against Tau. I scored like a total of 17 points with painted army. Yikes. I tried to deploy defensively but it was a slanted deployment and the terrain wasnt placed to make up for that. So even though i tried to deploy defensively it didnt matter, because apparently some tau units can move very super far, and others can deepstrike turn 1. In the end he got turn 1 which made it even worse, so i was trashed completely by turn 3. At least half my army died turn 1 to his shooting, and when i finally got in turn 2 ghaz failed to kill their warlord despite him only having 6 wounds or so total.

It was a colossal fail. Looking back, trying to deploy out of line of sight didnt make any sense given how far he could move and how the terrain was placed as if we deployed straight, rather than having a slanted deployment. I should have just risked everything and deployed on the front to get a turn 1 charge. But needless to say he got turn 1 anyway so. I was smashed to smithereens with their 3AP str 5 weapons on basically everything + a bunch of higher strength weapons as well.

Battle 2: Narrow win
I played against another ork player who went full ork boyz horde with 20 beastsnaggas, squig riders, beastboss on squig with BBK and another Ghaz so yea. it ended up with a ghaz vs ghaz fight. Anyway it was that stage where you only have a quarter deployment zone and 18 in between both zones, so i deployed far behind so i wouldnt get charged first turn. It paid off because he got turn 1 and didnt declare waaagh there. I, on the other hand, had deployed my Kommandos too far ahead in the no mans land so both my 10 man kommando squads got destroyed turn 1. I essentially played the entire game without kommandos because i also couldnt interrupt (well i could but he positioned himself in a way that it wouldnt be worth it for me). All in all i won the battle but with like a 15 point difference or so. This would have been a much larger win if i hadnt been an absolute tea kettle and deployed my kommandos too far ahead.

Battle 3: Loss
I played against an imperial guard army composition i had not tried before. He started with 2x5 bullgryns on the table as well as like 4 or 5 Taurox transports who all hit pretty damn hard as well as his tank commander, a manticore and some infantry inside of the tauroxes. On the other hand, half a million scions and a few guardsmen came tellyporting in by turn 2. I got turn 1 but i was unsure about how i should deploy and move up. I deployed for a turn 2 charge, and by making a better turn 2 charge than a somewhat turn 1 charge, i was hoping i could destroy enough of his tauroxes and such that i could divert my attention to his incoming tellyporting army. But that failed. So those scions went to town on my deffkoptas. on the other hand, ghaz never died.

I did think about trying to just spreading out and holding out to turn 3 so his deepstrikes would die, but those tauroxes hit really really hard with AP1 compared to their cost, and coupled with their tank kommander i was really unsure that i would be able to hold out so that i still had enough infantry to deal with his remaining things.

All in all i could probably win that fight, but experience made me lose i think.

Battle 4: Win
Against Imperial Guard again and Yarrik! Finally, a worthy opponent. Our battle will be legendary! It was a true battle of armageddon with ghaz on one side and yarrik on the other. Unfortunately that means that every hit roll near yarrik can be rerolled. and there were 2 tank commanders and 2 manticores raining death upon me because of that. Anyway, i got turn 1, got in to position as well as i could behind cover, but i had left out 2x3 deffkoptas who got mulched sadly. It was actually looking kind of bleak up to turn 2 but i turned the game around turn 3 when he started making big mistakes like sending guardsmen in to fight ghaz in an attempt to hold me back from destroying those 2 manticores and 2 tank commanders, rather than just blocking my movement. He was a slow player so he stressed out which worked for my advantage. In the end, ghaz killed a chimera, like 20-30 guardsmen, a tank commander and two manticores. He lost only 1 wound (well turn 5 his manticore blew up so i lost 2 more wounds there) and yarrik ran away from Ghaz.

Battle 5: Extremely narrow loss due to ghaz being an idiot.
He had those katapron breachers or what ever they are called en mass (almost like 20 or something), as well as 2x 5 Kastelan robots. Now ive never fought AdMech before, but the fact he can throw -1 to hit both shooting and melee on my entire army seems rather insane. then declare fight last on kastelans who already have 7 wounds, can potentially ignore AP 1 and 2, get transhuman and yadda yadda. But fair enough. I Lost very narrowly, with the score being 71-73 to him. And i would have won, if ghaz had not FAILED a 4 inch charge against his two remaining characters, WITH my ere we go!. I failed 2x 4 inch charges. I still cant get over it today. So theres not much to say there.

Experience really is key and i just havent really played much in 9th. Also theres so much shooting in this game and ways to prevent close combat armies from functioning well that theres no doubt that Speed waaagh heavy armies are in general just faring much better than close combat. I think i will make a shift to a speed freeks heavy list rather than infantry for competitive play. I ended up with a 31st out of 50 which isnt great i think, and i was hoping to land in the 20s. Much of that is due to me only getting 17 points in my first battle against tau, but i was just so absolutely fisted in that battle. So that was really really sad. And of course ghaz failing a god damn 4 inch charge by battle 5 which lost me the game. But such is the nature of this game. I will hopefully play better next time.

The person who got first place was actually an ork player running a speed freeks army. Andreas Drachman. So good for us orks i guess. The speed freeks are still doing well.

**Grotrebel**

Yeah we had multiple Harlies players and all but 1 were rocking maximum boats.
And this was a local tournament and not all of them were tournament regulars or hardcore Meta chasers.

Harlies have limited model choices also which means most have at least 3 Starweavers and 3 Voidweavers anyway. Most players were from mine or the other hobby club who organised that tournament. I don't know about the average of smaller gaming groups but the games in my area tend to be at least semi competitive most of the time. That basically means stuff like 9 boats is a pretty common thing especially if one already had the fotm army and needed just a few units to go for the up to date meta lists.

Not to mention Tau, CWE and Custodes players where even casual players have large enough collections to go for the good lists as soon as the good builds have been found. Which is pretty fast with Goonhammer, Art of War and other channels dashing out reviews at the preorder weekend and often leaks beforehand.

I really hope the emergency balance next week will help to even the odds a bit.
Top 10 in the tournament was:

Harlies
Custodes
Drukhari & Harlies
Custodes
Custodes
Harlies
Tau
Harlies
Tau
Tau

Only things not one more of those from place 11-16 before my orks #17 were one GK, 1 Sisters and 1 DA and a few more Tau, Crusher, Aeldari who placed worse than me.

In my opinion Tau and Custodes will be fine if they get a few point hikes on the worst offenders and maybe increase the strat costs for Bikes.
Harlies on the other side should get a general revamp of their rules in Edition to a few point increases, mainly light and that aura that works on vehicles as well.

**Beardedragon**

The top 10 from my GT were quite different. It had both Eldar with their new codex and older Crusher stampede Tyranids.

1) Orks
2) custodies
3) Tyranids
4) Eldar (Ulthwe)
5) Tyranids
6) Eldar
7) Necrons
8) Eldar
9) Tau
10) Thousand Sons

EDIT: the new harlequin codex was NOT in this tournament because the cut off period was from before the release.

**Tomsug**

Beardragon - do you have the winning ork list? What was the name of the event?

Anyway thanks for the report!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh, I read your report and see what I see too - IG is now so obscure rare army, people sometimes lost just because they are confused what the hell is it and what to do.

If man do not know the army playing againts, it' s always hard.

**Beardedragon**

Tomsug wrote:
Beardragon - do you have the winning ork list? What was the name of the event?

Anyway thanks for the report!

The GT was called "Midtcon GT 40k" and was hosted in Denmark. And sure thing. i dont know how to copy it directly from battlescribe or from my phone to this place but i can write the setup normally. List below

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tomsug wrote:
Beardragon - do you have the winning ork list? What was the name of the event?

Anyway thanks for the report!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh, I read your report and see what I see too - IG is now so obscure rare army, people sometimes lost just because they are confused what the hell is it and what to do.

If man do not know the army playing againts, it' s always hard.

Yea. I mean i knew he would tellyport them all i just didnt know what the best way to deal with it was. Should i blitz his tauroxes and bullgryns and the tank commander + manticore hoping to kill them before they reach turn 2? Or should i spread out and just get shredded for 3 turns? I went for option 1 and it didnt go well. But i also dont know if option 2 would be good because those tauroxes really did a number on my infantry and his tank commander removed at least 1 unit each turn. The manticore didnt make that decision easier either. And the problem was that the deployment on the first day, on the first 3 battles was completely gak for my Mek Gunz. There were literally no lanes i could shoot down from that made any sense. so holding my own backline objective with mek gunz while still shooting werent a thing. Im actually really glad i went for grots as well because THEY held the objectives, while i had to move out of the objective areas just to get my mek gunz in to firing position. It was only by day 2 when we had 2 battles left, and the terrain was placed differently, that my mek Gunz actually had the opportunity to hold my own objective while still being able to shoot. So they did decent work by battle 4, but against Admech where i had turn 1, all 3 mek gunz whiffed and killed nothing. Didnt even do any damage. Then they all died by his turn. So yea. And this is also why i keep grots to hold objectives. because if i hadnt had grots, then i would need to keep actual kommandos or stormboyz to hold my backline objective, because the mek gunz were dead. that or i would just use mek gunz to hide while holding the objective, without ever shooting with them.

Although one Mek Gun in my battle 2 against Orks did kill the enemy Ghaz

so that was kind of fun.

**Blackie**

Jidmah wrote:

Uhm, star weavers and void weavers are the same model, and if you have a harlequin player who regularly plays 3k games or larger, they can easily pull that many models from their regular collection..

Same kit, not same model. Loadout are different and tournaments enforce WYSIWYG.

Also, harlequins do need their transports, they can't proxy them as voidweavers. The list posted in Warhammer Community had 13 models between star and voidweavers IIRC. Which is insane, even for those who regularly play 3k games.

Oh, and balance update will hit them really soon. So no, I'm not convinced that voidweaver spam is or will be a thing.

Unfortunately tau, tyranids and custodes I don't think they'll get what they deserve soon enough, balance update doesn't provide lots of points hikes.

**Tomsug**

Todays Competitive Innovation - the Waagh Edition Part I.

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-joker-mode-pt-1/

Generaly - orks are on 54% win rate in top 10! Well, actually… they are 10th but n.1 is a single dude with 100% rate, so we are de facto 9th

And one mighty victory!

Fantasia Fanatic XLI - 8th – Björn Eriksson - ES Speed Mob. Just one unit of Koptas and the target is obviously to score via TTL (koptas, big blobs of MSJ and RSB) + score the Data via Warbikers in squads of 6.

Spoiler:

Midtcon GT 40K
Andreas Drachmann – Orks – 1st Place - already metioned by Bearddragon. The point of this list is feth with opponent obsec via Badskull banner Warboss on Bike with Obsec kombo. I dunno if he plays TTL because he has 2 good squads - RSBs and Koptas but one non-forcefield Wazboom. Maybe 10 VP is enough…

Spoiler:

Grimdark Open - 7th – Juan Manuel Sánchez Molina – Orks: Goff MECHA Pressure with Ghaz. Just a single unit of Beastsnaga boyz. The rest are mostly VEHICLES - Bonebreaker!, double killrig, 3 squads of Koptas, 3 squads of Squigriders and large mob of MSJ! More a Speedwaaagh than waaagh! I like it!

Spoiler:

Sorry Semper, it seems there is just a single squad of infantry in all this lists! It' s a pitty! Despite the fact I don' t play infantry at all right now, I like our boyz of all kinds!

**popisdead**

Grotrebel wrote:

Brought my Blood Axe Speedmob again:

I'm a little confused about this, i must have misread this.

Can you take a Speedmob from Warzone Octarius and also have it as a Klan?

thanks kindly.

**gungo**

Speedmob replaces kultur not klan and only on speedfreak units.. your wagons and aircraft still benefit from klan kultur since they can’t get adrenaline junkies special rule (still not a kultur).

This basically only means freebooters which let speedfreak units trigger the +1 to hit for aircraft/wagons or any other klan for relics Strats and warlord traits.

Furthermore speedmob allows you to stack the speed mob special rule adrenaline junkies (still not a klan or kultur) with specialist mob (which does replace klan and thus kultur).. so you can have madboy bikers, flyboy aircraft, boomboy deffkoptas, or pyromaniac kustom boosta blastas and it all stacks w adrenaline junkies….. except specialist mobs don’t trigger freebooter kultur or allow you to use klan specific Strats like evilsun fire and fade strat.

**Tomsug**

.. and via Klan you get the acces to the Strategems and Relics and Warlord traits.

So the Speed Mob is played generaly as

Evil Sunz - to get move after shooting strategem and interesting relic and trait
Blood Axe - to be able to redeploy or hide in the reserves more than half of your army
Freeboota - to do the obsec trick with the banner and maybe get the +1 to hit on your planes.

**popisdead**

oh boy, k thanks. I got it now. appreciate it.

**Tomsug**

Competitive Innovation part 2

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-joker-mode-pt-2/

Just one another list, but it' s Mark Perry and it' s interesting!

Grand Onslaught 3 - 6th – Mark Perry – FB vehicle heavy list, but not the Speed Mob. Battlewagons with various Kannons!! And Lobas!!! and triple Lootas! And big blob of Tankbustas. Badskull Banner included of course! What comes next? Flashgitz?

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.

**Afrodactyl**

Tomsug wrote:
Competitive Innovation part 2

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-joker-mode-pt-2/

Just one another list, but it' s Mark Perry and it' s interesting!

Grand Onslaught 3 - 6th – Mark Perry – FB vehicle heavy list, but not the Speed Mob. Battlewagons with various Kannons!! And Lobas!!! and triple Lootas! And big blob of Tankbustas. Badskull Banner included of course! What comes next? Flashgitz?

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment -3CP (Orks) [112 PL, 1,999pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Clan Kultur: Freebooterz

+ HQ +

Deffkilla Wartrike [6 PL, 120pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Da Badskull Banner (Freebooterz), Warlord

+ Elites +

Tankbustas [12 PL, 204pts]
. Boss Nob
. 11x Tankbusta: 11x Rokkit Launcha

+ Fast Attack +

Megatrakk Scrapjets [15 PL, 300pts]
. Megatrakk Scrapjet
. Megatrakk Scrapjet
. Megatrakk Scrapjet

Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies [18 PL, 330pts]
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy
. Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy

+ Heavy Support +

Battlewagon [8 PL, 135pts]: 4x Big Shoota, Kannon, Lobba

Battlewagon [9 PL, 175pts]: 4x Big Shoota, Da Booma, Deff Rolla, Killkannon, Lobba

Lootas [8 PL, 125pts]
. 7x Loota: 7x Deffgun, 7x Stikkbombs
. Spanner: Kustom Mega-Blasta

Lootas [8 PL, 95pts]
. 5x Loota: 5x Deffgun, 5x Stikkbombs
. Spanner: Kustom Mega-Blasta

Lootas [8 PL, 95pts]
. 5x Loota: 5x Deffgun, 5x Stikkbombs
. Spanner: Kustom Mega-Blasta

+ Flyer +

Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 210pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Stikkbomb Flinga, 2x Supa Shoota

Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 210pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Stikkbomb Flinga, 2x Supa Shoota

++ Total: [112 PL, 1,999pts] ++

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.

Pretty cool seeing Sisters, Necrons, Chaos Daemons and Blood Angels getting some placements.

I'd be really interested to see BatReps for Perry's games, as it's a really oddball list outside of the FA/Flyer slot centric core compared to what's cemented itself as the current competitive Ork builds.

I can vaguely see the usefulness of the kannon/lobba on a wagon in order to add a tiny bit more shooting power, but only if you just have the points leftover with nowhere else to spend them. Kind of like a big shoota on a boys mob.

:EDIT:
I've just noticed all of the big shootas on the wagons. What on earth is this list

**Scactha**

Tomsug wrote:
Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.

Speedwaagh! with the number of Big Shootas and other cheap Dakka guns isn´t bad. Have enjoyed that too in test play, but not to this degree. I'd say this is a callback to the Alpha strike Freeboota buggy list. Move up, shoot everything up T1 and T2 and hope it´s enough.

**Blackie**

Scactha wrote:
Tomsug wrote:
Mark Perry list makes me to find the profiles of those cannons and lobbas and well, they are really bad. On the other side, they are bloody cheap. Except Da Booma everything is 5p a piece.
Speedwaagh! with the number of Big Shootas and other cheap Dakka guns isn´t bad. Have enjoyed that too in test play, but not to this degree. I'd say this is a callback to the Alpha strike Freeboota buggy list. Move up, shoot everything up T1 and T2 and hope it´s enough.

The odd part of that list, more than the cheap-ish upgrades on the wagons, is the massive investment of points in shooty units that don't benefit from speedwaaagh, only from the freebooter trait. And no BS4+ units, that can't get the +1 to hit anyway such mek gunz, to trigger to trait.

**CaptainO**

I gotta say the fact an Ork won a tournament should give us some positivity. The nerf bat is coming for the s tiers. The outlook is rosy for the greenskins.

I've got a RTT coming up in two weeks with the only "concern" being custodes and they'll probably take a hit.

Now all I need is a GT level event in South America. If anyone hears of one let me know

**dorath**

If the Tankbustas and Lootas are in the Battlewagons, would they not benefit from Speedwaaagh! per the core book FAQ page 8 Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport, #9?

That would make the Lootas Dakka 4/3 with -2 AP, and give the Tankbustas -3AP?

I'm pretty new and don't understand how everything interacts, but this seems like it would be the case.

**Jidmah**

dorath wrote:
If the Tankbustas and Lootas are in the Battlewagons, would they not benefit from Speedwaaagh! per the core book FAQ page 8 Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport, #9?

That would make the Lootas Dakka 4/3 with -2 AP, and give the Tankbustas -3AP?

I'm pretty new and don't understand how everything interacts, but this seems like it would be the case.

I think the general take is that the extra AP is not a modifier to a dice roll and therefore is not conferred to passengers. It's not super clear though.

**Beardedragon**

Jidmah wrote:
dorath wrote:
If the Tankbustas and Lootas are in the Battlewagons, would they not benefit from Speedwaaagh! per the core book FAQ page 8 Shooting Whilst Embarked on a Transport, #9?

That would make the Lootas Dakka 4/3 with -2 AP, and give the Tankbustas -3AP?

I'm pretty new and don't understand how everything interacts, but this seems like it would be the case.

I think the general take is that the extra AP is not a modifier to a dice roll and therefore is not conferred to passengers. It's not super clear though.

If im not mistaken, it says its a modifier if it modifies the die roll to your ranged attack.

A ranged attack is a hit roll, wound roll, save roll and the damage roll. By all means, the save roll your opponent makes belongs to your "ranged attack" and as far as im aware, should thus count towards the passengers receiving the AP modifier. I dont think the question is whether its a modifier or not, because it is, it clearly modifies a save roll of 3 which becomes a save roll of 4 with a -1AP, in the same way you could get +1 to hit or -1 to hit, i think the question is whether it counts towards a modifier in YOUR ranged attack, when its your opponent that has to make the roll and not you. I thought the issue was that your opponent made the roll and not you.

I would still say it does, because as per what an attack is, a save roll is part of it.

No extra dakka though.

**Jidmah**

I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.

It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.

**dorath**

Here is the text:

If a Transport model is under the effects of a modifier to its
ranged attacks (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.

So it doesn't necessarily only modify rolls. The two examples are rolls, but the 'etc' implies there must be things other than hit and wound rolls else there is no reason to include the 'etc'.

My main take here is that while I have not participated in a tournament yet, this is the sort of thing I should ask the TO before betting my list on it.

**Jidmah**

The rule has been updated in the BRB FAQ

If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which
would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a
ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack.

**Beardedragon**

Jidmah wrote:
I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.

It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.

i see where you are going.

I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!

except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.

**Forceride**

Beardedragon wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.

It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.

i see where you are going.

I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!

except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.

I am not sure what you don't understand or is unclear. Jidmah already posted the rule and it mention ALL DICE MODIFIERS.

Here's a link for what modifiers means: https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-dice-dice-modifiers-re-rolls-and-modifying-characteristics/#Dice_Modifiers

**Beardedragon**

Forceride wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
I agree with that assessment, but the extra AP is modifying a characteristic of a weapon, not the roll itself.

It's similar to how degrading BS of a raider doesn't affect the passengers shooting from the damaged transport.

i see where you are going.

I wish that GW wouldnt be such tea pots about FAQs its like: Hey guys! we finally made it clear with an FAQ!

except its not clear at all. i mean it cleared up the trukk boyz +1 to hit for vehicles, sure and other things. but it keeps the AP part pretty murky. Why not just add a note stating: yes it works, or no it doesnt.

I am not sure what you don't understand or is unclear. Jidmah already posted the rule and it mention ALL MODIFIERS.

Here's a link for what modifiers means: https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-dice-dice-modifiers-re-rolls-and-modifying-characteristics/#Dice_Modifiers

What?

I say AP is a modifier to your ranged attack because it actively changes the die you need from a 3+ to a 4+ if i get 1 extra AP while shooting at a standard space marine.

Jidmah says that it may not work that way because it modifies the characteristics of the weapon itself. And by all means he might be correct.

I say its murky waters still because it says:
"If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which
would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a
ranged attack (such as a modifier to its hit rolls, wound rolls,
etc.) the same modifier applies each time an embarked model
makes a ranged attack."
As i see it, its within the realms of ranged attacks (a ranged attack being a hit roll, wound roll, save roll, damage roll and technically damage allocation i suppose). Save rolls (which are directly affected by AP) are part of that ranged attack that im making, even though my opponent has to make the roll. Does AP being a weapon characteristic stop it from working as a modifier even though it modifies my opponents save roll? I dont know. I would like to believe that it does, but im open for the idea that it doesnt. Because at the end of the day, i dont know. Nor do half the ork community.

As far as im aware theres no clear cut list of all modifiers because it ends with etc. (et cetera or in common folk tongue, "so on and so on"). Like 33% of the ork players i meet, even online, dont even know that modifiers given to a vehicle is given to the passengers, so that narrows it sort of down to a very small group of people you can even discuss these things with. Because at the end of the day, not many other factions except for orks make use of open topped transports where this could be relevant to begin with.

So no, i DONT think its clear cut whether you are meant to get -1AP on shoota boyz in a vehicle during a speedwaaagh or not. Because of anything, GWs writing skills is like that of a toddler. They always over complicate things. As things are right now, im not giving my infantry an extra AP, nor did i do that by the previous FAQ. I was hoping this FAQ made me smarter but it didnt.

Being part of the Ork group on facebook where the admin pinned a post stating that you DO indeed get the extra AP just makes it even more confusing. So you have some orks that says: sure it works, and others that says: nah it dont work. And i cant make a list based on: it could work, or it might not work". So i hate that GW has to be so ambiguous about what they want.

I just want it to be clear so that we can all agree on how it works. And the reason people dont agree is because GW write things in a less than precise way.

**CaptainO**

No doubt it's not as clear as it could be. Glad I just play speed mob.

Hoping orks don't get in the cross fire with next week's nerfs. I'm particularly worried about deffkoptas getting stung if they nerf flyers to get custodes and quins.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone had much luck with the behind enemy lines and deploy teleport Homer combo for speed mob? I'm running a double wazbomm, bike and deffkopta heavy mono detachment.

I'm currently focusing on RnD and engage but if I change my wartrike for a warboss on bike (with Ard as nails) it would pivot my army to homers and behind enemy lines.

This would mean dropping my current ES warlord trait which would make me think about running the army as freebootas.(super useful for the relic and to help my wazbomms hit something