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 Tomsug wrote:
Tripple Killrig!! Tripple everything! Nice!

Yea its like: What if i take the number 3, and just go insane with it?

Originally i also had only 3x3 squig riders and no squig hide tires, but in return i had a nob on smasha squig. But i dont feel like i get that much value out of him. so he was replaced with 2 more squigs and squig hide tires.

Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.

Hey guys.

The tournament is over and i did okay. I did things im not proud of here and there, but over all it went okay. It was a team tournament so i did have some say in what i played against, but ultimately, i had 3 victories, and 2 losses. In WTC style, one of my victories (which i won with only 5 points) became a draw. I ran Good bits and biggest and da best in all games, and mainly greentide as well, though i did run no prisoners in battle 5 against admech.

Over all feeling about Zagstrukk is, i either dont know how to use him properly or im unlucky. im not entirely sure which it is. I guess a bit of both really.

List below:



Battle 1: DG. Won 91-36 (Or 20-0)
Not much to say. it was a brutal shakedown. As it often feels like with DG versus orks, it just comes down to the better player. Also Kill rigs are pretty good at absorbing attacks from DG melee infantry. Zagstrukk was trying to fly in to kill his tallyman, but failed his 6 inch charge. He got dusted off afterwards. sad.

Battle 2: Tyranids. Lost 74-84 (Or 9-11).
A very narrow loss. My warlord got krumped by a juiced up Tervigon by the end so that one only netted me 8 points. If i had just remained a bit more passive i could at least have gotten 10 points. I tried to throw off 3 warriors off one of his objectives so that he would have held only 1 objective, but he threw -1 damage on tyranids, so Zaggstrukk, despite doing a good deal of damage, left a single warrior with 1 wound. Then that single warrior killed Zaggstruk. Oof. I guess if i was more experienced (i never play against tyranids) I would have known he had -1 damage. if i knew that, i would not have attempted to do it but oh well.

Battle 3: Chaos space marines, Creations of bile. won 81-76 (or a WTC style draw, 10-10).
This battle is the one im most ashamed of, because apparently during my movement phase turn 1, i had a brain meltdown, and threw my warlord so far ahead, that he got destroyed by some auto wounding daemon prince who bypassed my -1 to wound and my 5+++. I knew he had him but i completely forgot about it. So even though i did win a tiny bit, i only got 4 points for biggest and da best. I dont think i have ever done anything as stupid as that before. There was no reason for my warlord to even get near that dude, i just forgot about him completely. So normally, it should have been a much larger victory, and not a WTC draw. *massive facepalm* At least Zaggstrukk did something useful this time around. He killed off a few possessed. Whether he got his points worth i dont know. I cant remember.

Battle 4: Sisters of battle. Lost 62-97 (Or 16-4).
My biggest loss. I accidently pitted myself against sisters, partly because i knew the guy and he was fun to play with, and partly because the other faction i could pick to play against (Drukhari) was a faction i had previously lost 20-0 to. not the player just the faction. That was before nephilim where we had trash secondaries but all of that just really scared me. i hadnt played against drukhari a lot before. But sure, i knew Sisters would be super rough, i just hoped for a close to draw, but that didnt happen. too much shinanigans for me to remember. Zaggstrukk dealt 1 wound for 2 damage against celestine and was dusted afterwards (ofc), and i forgot about his fight last rule after i cheekily da jumped 10 beast snagga boys in to his line of repentias.

Yea... I should definitely have picked drukhari, which i know we CAN definitely play against. I was just spooked from my previous massive loss i guess. and playing someone you know is always fun.

Battle 5: Admech. Won, 94-44 (Or 19-1).
This is where i ran prisoners. I have fought Admech once before only, so what they do i dont know, except shoot a lot. He had a unit of i believe, 6 shooty robot chickens that had eradication of flesh. And abhore the witch, and assassinate. So everytime he dusted off a Kill Rig, he got a whooping 9 points. Anyway, he had turn 1, dusted off my first rig, i went for a turn 1 waaagh out of somewhat desperation to get to his lines and starting krumping. Zagstrukk flew to one of his objectives and threw off the dudes standing there, netting the enemy only 1 objective for 4 points. Afterwards he wanted to shoot zaggy, but failed to kill him and didnt wanna dedicate too much fire to him, so he charged him with rust stalkers. Zaggy died, fought on death, and (after morale by the end) only 1 rust stalker remained. I guess this was the battle zaggy did his best deeds.

Another Kill rig died after my turn 2, and after that i just hid my last rig in a corner like a coward, and threw my wall of snagga boys, kommandos and squig riders at his wall of shooting infantry. in the end i had completely denied him primary points, he got 4 points turn 2 and 3 points for scanning an objective. He had 10 shooty boys left and his 6 chickens that i decided to not care about (as he had barricaded them in the corner behind his sea of soldiers). In turn 5 i had barely nothing left, but the highlight of my battle, my single 1 wound kommando no with a powerklaw, ran up and dusted off his warlord (who apparently only had 4 wounds total). That was amazing.

Anyway. that was my odd little monologue if anyone wants a read. its not very detailed but i felt like sharing it. Im still trying to become better (especially with battle 3 where i got 4 points for biggest and da best because im an absolute grot brain... F me). But even so, i had place number 44 out of 160 so im in the better half at least!. I take that as a somewhat win!

But my god i have room to grow. Both in playing capabilities but also in sheer experience. I still absolutely have no idea how my army composition should EVER win against a meta bloody rose sisters of battle composition. there is just too much in it.

flaming tadpole wrote:Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.

I think the general consensus with Nobz is that they're in a weird limbo between Snagga Boys and MANz. They hit decently hard but they still die easy while there's lots of d2 floating around, and they cost a bit too much for what they give you. Trukk Boys MANz have a niche because they're decently durable while still hitting hard, but regular Nobs don't quite hit the mark.

There were a few tournament lists not too long ago that were running Nobs though. Try them out and report back!

Beardedragon wrote:Hey guys.

The tournament is over and i did okay.

Over all feeling about Zagstrukk is, i either dont know how to use him properly or im unlucky. im not entirely sure which it is. I guess a bit of both really.

Firstly, well done on your placing.

Secondly, I use Zagstruk like a mini-missile. Similar to how a Warboss on bike often gets used. I stick him in a trukk with my trukk boys, disembark turn one, and with that tiny bit of extra movement and a first turn Waaagh he can often kill or tag something I don't want harassing the rest of my guys. He's often charging into the same target as the trukk boys, so they normally give the extra chip damage I need or extra wounds to bog down the target.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.

Trukk Boyz only work competitively because they are cheap. That is it. They are so cheap in regards to what they can do and how fast they can do it that you don't really care if they die turn 2 or if your enemy has a heart attack and focus fires them down turn 1. When you start adding points to them by making them Nobz and giving them weapon loadouts...well, now you've put a lot of eggs in a rather fragile basket and now your opponent isn't really wasting effort by killing that trukk turn 1. On top of that, if you do get them into close combat, they aren't appreciably better than Boyz on a point for point basis.

10 Trukkboyz (9 and a double Choppa Nob) get you 27 attacks at S4 and 5 attacks at S5. All of that for 80pts. Your Nobz are going to run you around 200pts and you will get 9 Attacks at S10, 6 attacks at S7 and then 30 attacks at S5.

Against a Marine Profile (T4 3+ 2wound) the trukk boyz average 3.7dmg
The Trukk Nobz average 10.3(ish) dmg.

So point for point the Trukk boyz average 0.04dmg per point, the Trukk nobz average 0.05dmg per point.

And again, your opponent isn't necessarily going to target a 150pt Trukkboyz unit (70pts for trukk) but they wouldn't have a problem removing a 270pt Trukk Nobz unit, hell, even if they just pop the trukk turn 1 they have basically turned that 270pt unit into swiss cheese that can be handled by leftover bolter fire.




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 Afrodactyl wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:Hey guys.

The tournament is over and i did okay.

Over all feeling about Zagstrukk is, i either dont know how to use him properly or im unlucky. im not entirely sure which it is. I guess a bit of both really.

Firstly, well done on your placing.

Secondly, I use Zagstruk like a mini-missile. Similar to how a Warboss on bike often gets used. I stick him in a trukk with my trukk boys, disembark turn one, and with that tiny bit of extra movement and a first turn Waaagh he can often kill or tag something I don't want harassing the rest of my guys. He's often charging into the same target as the trukk boys, so they normally give the extra chip damage I need or extra wounds to bog down the target.

What afro said. That is exactly how I use him. I plop him in a transport turn 1, get him that extra 3 inches of movement and then bum rush him up the table into whatever unit I need to die or get tied up. Just remember when fielding him that he isn't the best at durability or dmg dealing. He does get 6 attacks at S9 -3 2dmg but 2dmg isn't a lot and with -1 floating around all the time its just not enough. Remember though, with him during a WAAAGH turn he gets 7 attacks, exploding 6s and S10. He also gets a 5++ and a 5+++ so he is relatively durable during a WAAAGH turn. Never expect huge things from him, but at the same time, when he does go off he can take out a tank by himself

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.

I saw a tactic in YT video called the Ork Burrito. But you have to commit a lot to it (mostly BCs but a couple PKs sprinkled inside).

Warboss, 5 Nobz, 5 Nobz, Trukk on an objective. I think with the Freebooterz banner relic could make it work better, or just being in Death Skullz. They have to pop the trukk, then the first 5 nobz circled, then the second 5 then the warboss to clear an objective.

I just finished painting my 10th nob so I haven't tried it yet but will soon. I'm sure it's mostly a casual competitive spot and not something you will see in a UK Masters game. TBH I would recommend trying it out in about half a dozen games to see how it goes.

Well done Beardragon!

When charging on the waagh turn do the 4 butcha Boyz on a killrigs go up to s6 or does the +1 s for the waagh bring it up to S7. The waagh strength is +1 to the s characteristic of the model rather than the s of the attack.


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Assuming they're Goff for the initial+1s

popisdead wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.

I saw a tactic in YT video called the Ork Burrito. But you have to commit a lot to it (mostly BCs but a couple PKs sprinkled inside).

Warboss, 5 Nobz, 5 Nobz, Trukk on an objective. I think with the Freebooterz banner relic could make it work better, or just being in Death Skullz. They have to pop the trukk, then the first 5 nobz circled, then the second 5 then the warboss to clear an objective.

I just finished painting my 10th nob so I haven't tried it yet but will soon. I'm sure it's mostly a casual competitive spot and not something you will see in a UK Masters game. TBH I would recommend trying it out in about half a dozen games to see how it goes.

Cheers, ya I was just fiddling around with making a nob themed list to go against one of my buddies and was struggling to figure out a way to make nobs somewhat useful.

The ork burrito seems like an interesting idea. Think I'll try and run the trukk nobs and the nob-urrito (heh) in the same game and see which throws less lol.


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CaptainO wrote:
When charging on the waagh turn do the 4 butcha Boyz on a killrigs go up to s6 or does the +1 s for the waagh bring it up to S7. The waagh strength is +1 to the s characteristic of the model rather than the s of the attack.


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Assuming they're Goff for the initial+1s

to my knowledge no because they're considered a weapon profile, but I'm not the most savy rules goer so could be wrong.

So to weigh in on the fixed str attacks and our buffs.

If a weapon has a fixed str like squigosaur jaws then the waagh won't affect it because it's 1+ to the str characteristic of the model.

The goff trait though specifically affects the str of the attack as you roll. So in theory should affect the Jaws or butcha boyz attacks.

The strength value of butcher boys does not go up on a goff charge nor on the waaagh.

As far as i recall it says strength characteristics, which is only strength number thats displayed on the stat line with movement, wounds, weapon skill etc. and in this case, strength.

The strength value of squighog jaws or trampler squig jaws is fixed, and does not go up on a goff charge.

The strength value of butcher boys does not go up on a goff charge

Goff charge DOES increase the strength of butcher boys, WAAGH does not.

Goff:
Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, if this model's unit makes a charge move, or perfformed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that attack.

compared to waagh:
Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristic of ORKS models from your army

which would not affect the strength of any fixed S profiles like butcher boys

Yes.

The strength characteristic. What ive been told is on fixed sheets such as butcher boyz, is a strength value, not strength characteristics. The strength characteristic is where you also find weapon skill wounds and ballistic skill. Neither waaagh nor goffs as far as ive been told, increases the strength of butcher boys or trampler squigs or squig jaws.

Only the actual rig, beastboss ON the squiggosaur and squighog "rider" itself gets this increase of strength as they use the actual strength characteristic which is the value on their stat bar.

Ive been told numberous times that "strength characteristic" only refers to the actual strength stat, not the fixed strength of things such as jaw strikes. They would not benefit.

Like you, i used to say that jaws would get the bonus from a goff charge, but ive been told off both at tournaments and on this specific ork forum, that that doesnt work. I still find it silly that they dont however.

Soooo the butcha boy attacks always stay at S5?!?!?

The fact there is different wording really implies the Goff trait gives +1s but if you've been picked up at tournaments there must must something to it.

They both use the word "Strength characteristics".

and as far as im aware, that only refers to the strength on the stat line with BS, WS and LD.

I was at least told both here and at a tournament that it doesnt work. But i really hope i am wrong. The dude at the tournament was another ork player, Not a TO btw so take it with a grain of salt.

terennNash wrote:

The strength value of butcher boys does not go up on a goff charge

Goff charge DOES increase the strength of butcher boys, WAAGH does not.

Goff:
Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, if this model's unit makes a charge move, or perfformed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that attack.

compared to waagh:
Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristic of ORKS models from your army

which would not affect the strength of any fixed S profiles like butcher boys

My interpretation is that Goff effects the attack itself, so if it has S6 listed on the weapon profile it gets the bonus, but Waaagh effects the model and the attack is a "fixed" strength independent of the overall profile.

That's how I've been playing it, but I might be wrong.

For those who hadn’t seen it yet, this was hilarious. https://youtu.be/bi6wG3imbAc

Beardedragon wrote:
They both use the word "Strength characteristics".

and as far as im aware, that only refers to the strength on the stat line with BS, WS and LD.

I was at least told both here and at a tournament that it doesnt work. But i really hope i am wrong. The dude at the tournament was another ork player, Not a TO btw so take it with a grain of salt.

I asked the art of war stream on Orks yesterday and they said the butcha boys can never go above S5 which kind of puts it to bed for me.

Beardedragon wrote:
Yes.

The strength characteristic. What ive been told is on fixed sheets such as butcher boyz, is a strength value, not strength characteristics. The strength characteristic is where you also find weapon skill wounds and ballistic skill. Neither waaagh nor goffs as far as ive been told, increases the strength of butcher boys or trampler squigs or squig jaws.

Only the actual rig, beastboss ON the squiggosaur and squighog "rider" itself gets this increase of strength as they use the actual strength characteristic which is the value on their stat bar.

Ive been told numberous times that "strength characteristic" only refers to the actual strength stat, not the fixed strength of things such as jaw strikes. They would not benefit.

Like you, i used to say that jaws would get the bonus from a goff charge, but ive been told off both at tournaments and on this specific ork forum, that that doesnt work. I still find it silly that they dont however.

If you read the actual rules, though, it says that weapons have Strength characteristics. So they should be increased by the Goff ability too.

I think technically you're always wounding something with a weapons characteristic, it's just that many Melee weapons used the wielders characteristic.

Still, the goff trait specifics the characteristic of the attack, not the wielder is increased. Rather than the waaagh which says the model's strength is increased.

7. WEAPONS
In the condensed datasheets, weapons are given a number that corresponds to annotated pictures of the miniature, rather than being named. Weapons are described with the following characteristics:

Strength (S): How likely the weapon is to wound a foe. If a weapon’s Strength lists ‘User’, it is equal to the bearer’s Strength characteristic. If a weapon lists a modifier (e.g. ‘+1’ or ‘x2’), modify the bearer’s Strength characteristic as shown (e.g. if a weapon’s Strength was ‘x2’, and the bearer had a Strength of 6, that weapon has a Strength of 12).

I can't find anything that mentions set weapon strengths though, and how modifiers do and don't affect them.

If we go by the idea that a fixed weapon strength is also a strength characteristics, then both the goff ability AND the regular waagh should work here.

Because they both use the term weapon characteristics. Id say they either both work, or both not work. I have found the old discussion from a while a back, and it was Gungo and JNAProductions who back in the day advocated for it not working.I would like to hear their opinion about the matter again if they remain solute on their opinion or if it might have changed. though as they said back then, i also meet most people that say it doesnt work.

Nothing much has really changed since then, but one thing id like to point out is, that we're talking about how fixed weapon strength doesnt have any real word to describe it self.

Then we quote the:
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model
has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that
characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the
model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for
the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted
characteristic still cannot be modified).

All characteristic modifiers are cumulative.
Apply modifiers in the following order: division,
multiplication, addition, then subtraction.
Round fractions up after applying all modifiers.
S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.
Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit
each time it moves.
Other random characteristics determined individually
when characteristic required.
Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.

And due to that we say that fixed weapon strength is possibly also called strength characteristics. But its not outright spoken that its correct that the strength value of a jaws or butcher boyz is also called strength characteristics. Leaving us to wonder in this case. In most cases with warhammer, it tends to be that if its not outright called something, its not the same.

So as per the rules id still say that the jaws dont benefit from +1 strength when charging with goffs because it talks about the strength characteristics which we know belong to the stat bar wwith LD,WS and BS. That it might also refer to things such as jaws and butcher boyz, we simply dont know id say.

All in all i dont know if it gets this benefit or not from goffs, but i do know most i meet say they dont, because its not outright called "strength characteristics" but are refered to as a "strength value" instead.
I also know that if i were to play it as butcher boyz would receive an increase of strength on a goff charge, i would give the same strength value to a regular waaagh, since both types talks about how they increase the strength characteristics. And if both the strength characteristics and the fixed weapon strength is also a strength characteristics, both should equally be increased in both cases.

Does a successful warp ritual attempt count for the purposes of getting D3 wurr tower shots

CaptainO wrote:
Does a successful warp ritual attempt count for the purposes of getting D3 wurr tower shots

yes because its a psychic power, as far as i know.

hmm I would say no.
Warp ritual is a psychic action, right?.
It is resolved like a psychic power, but it is not a psychic power.

Then the question must be asked, why even have the different wording? One referencing the strength of the model, the other referencing the strength of the attack? Do we have to assume it's GW making mistakes or an intentional difference.

As for psychic actions..
"While psychic actions are not psychic powers, they function in much the same way. For all purposes, when a unit attempts a psychic action, this is treated the same as if they were attempting to manifest a psychic power, and it triggers any rules that interact with manifesting a psychic power (e.g. rules that enable you to deny a psychic power can also be used to deny a psychic action). Note that a PSYKER can still only attempt to perform one psychic action in their Psychic phase instead of attempting to manifest any other psychic powers. Note, however, that the range of psychic actions is never modified by any such rules."

The Kill Rig states "Each time this weapon is selected to shoot with, if the bearer successfully manifested any psychic powers this turn, change this weapon’s Type to Assault D3. Each time an attack is made with this weapon, that attack automatically hits the target."

You get the d3 shots.

Beardedragon wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Does a successful warp ritual attempt count for the purposes of getting D3 wurr tower shots

yes because its a psychic power, as far as i know.

Ya and there was a recent faq (that I can't find) that mentioned psychic action acting as psychic powers but that was in response to a query about whether deny abilities work.


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I managed to get a ticket to LVO, dunno if anyone else here is going.

My list

Im hoping to bait someone into taking abhor and assassinate and then just hold back the rigs and weird boy.

I know the kff is a big spend but I've found the 100% improvement on my killrig save and the fact it works on my wazbomms makes it worthwhile.

The weird boy is there to tempt abhor, give the option of psychic secondaries and threatens da my opponents backfield with da jump (eithergrots if I'm looking to get an extra green tide or beast snaggas or kommandos to cause some trouble.

How have other people found playing Orks on player optimized terrain?

Looks like a solid list to me. I have one that's pretty much the same. A lot of matchups will unfortunately come down to whether your wazbomms can take out the opponents main AT before they go poof. You definitely got the tools to compete though.

Tripple Killrig and double Wazbooms! I like it!

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Looks like a solid list to me. I have one that's pretty much the same. A lot of matchups will unfortunately come down to whether your wazbomms can take out the opponents main AT before they go poof. You definitely got the tools to compete though.

Cheers dude. Do you also spring for a kff? I actually thought about makhari and getting a 6+++ on everything I can fit within 3" of him (surprisingly alot). Were you running you list on player optimised terrain. I've found the ability to place a forrest in a good position means 2 of my killrigs get -1.



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 Tomsug wrote:
Tripple Killrig and double Wazbooms! I like it!

I'm all about the KISS (Keep it simple stupid) and 6 big models (including ghaz) reduces the number of moving parts.

Opponent dependant and If I don't go for "the biggest and the best" I'd be tempted to frontline ghaz and the 3 rigs and really emphasize the threat overload.

Have people had much/any success with orks and psychic secondaries?