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cody.d. wrote:
Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.

Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.

Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.

I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.

With the release of Arks, and the new formation, are 'nauts more interesting? I always felt that the cp tax to bring them made them not worth it. Sure for fun games, why not. But my meta is pretty competitive and I can't play that often. I just don't have the time to bring something that just wasn't that good.(same with freebooters)

Domandi wrote:
With the release of Arks, and the new formation, are 'nauts more interesting? I always felt that the cp tax to bring them made them not worth it. Sure for fun games, why not. But my meta is pretty competitive and I can't play that often. I just don't have the time to bring something that just wasn't that good.(same with freebooters)

No. They're fundamentally just not good even if you disregard the baseline detachment rules not favouring super heavies. They're still way too expensive for what they bring since their damage output is meh, they're slow, and are very weak to enemy shooting due to not being able to be obscured, especially since they dont have ramshackle for some asinine reason. Their large footprint also makes it hard for them in certain maps depending on how the terrain is set up, so they can be screened or bottlenecked. Throw in the lack of synergy and support with the rest of the army and the majority of our walkers just dont make the cut. They really should have implemented Meks and Big Meks to do more with vehicles besides healing them, since as it is, DreadWAAAAGH as an archetype is nonexistent.

Grimskul wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.

Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.

Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.

I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.

This was my line of thinking, I should have elaborated. If the Nails/Mantle boss is your warlord, then a BBK/Killchoppa boss is pretty good for just being a melee monster. It also brings back the BBK/Killa Klaw boss as a missile character without sacrificing loads of CP or warlord durability, without spending a buttload of points.

I agree on the Deathskulls point, they've definitely had a boost as well.

Domandi wrote:With the release of Arks, and the new formation, are 'nauts more interesting? I always felt that the cp tax to bring them made them not worth it. Sure for fun games, why not. But my meta is pretty competitive and I can't play that often. I just don't have the time to bring something that just wasn't that good.(same with freebooters)

They're certainly more viable, but still not actually viable in the grand scheme of things. Still too big, too expensive, too easy to kill for what you spend on them, and don't do quite enough damage for nearly Knight points costs.

Massed dreads might become something doable. Spend a thousand points on dreads, kans and characters, then the rest is cheap ObSec infantry.

 Grimskul wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.

Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.

Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.

I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.

2 relics, 2 warlord traits and a strat to take 2 warbosses is at least 5cp Seems alot for a second warboss.

Madjob wrote:
Could see Kill Tank lists make a resurgence? They'd be in-detachment so they'd get kulturs, no CP to field them. Or has the statline creep had more of an impact on their viability than the issues with fitting them into CP budgets?

i recently used one at a local tournament.

Kill tanks arent really that great. I mean, they are probably some of our best lords of war choices, but they arent amazing in any way. In fact, none of our lords of war choices are. They dont get obscurring, they are rather large, so in the case that you do explode, odds are, you will hit some of your own units for D6 mortal wounds, and careen takes 2CP for titanic, not 1.

In most cases, one fares better with a battlewagon if you wanted them for transports. And if you wanted them as a shooting platform id say they dont have enough dakka for a shooting platform.

However its worth looking in to with these changes.

However, it was a really sweet dream yesterday about new DreadMob with walkers noving over units, moving twice, have twice as much dakka and cost the half… I love the models and want to paint them years already! Just waiting for the right opportunity…

Assuming that the changes are going to work in the way we think they will, I'm going to be running something like the list below.

Leaning heavily into alpha strike, making use of Great Waaagh, and relying on grots and the small kommando unit to score points. Mega Dread either runs up the board if the terrain suits or gets put in reserves/tellyporta.

All LoW got slightly better with the Ark detachment since now theres no cp cost and they get kultures (to this day still the overall biggest gripe i had with LoWs....they felt like they expected to have kulture rules but were not allowed w/o 3 of them which most armies cannot do)
Nauts still suck. 350/385pts (realistically 380/385 because of kff) for a mork/gork which is a 24w T8 3+ at best a 6+++ invul, no fancy rules and only moderately killy.
Mork hits on 5s despite Meks all getting BS4+ and its a Mek vehicle, no mass reroll available, and its gun is decent but not 380pts decent.
Gork at least fires 30 shots to offset its BS5 and its melee tends to delete whatever it does catch, but it also degrades so once it gets hurt a little suddenly its not likely to delete whatever it catches (and less likely to catch as its slower)

I think the Nauts could get a 75pt cut and we'd still be debating on using them or not. Very few ork things are deadly on their own and rely on sheer numbers, but the nauts cannot be spammed cause theyre so damn expensive.

Killtanks on the other hand....i think a casual killtank is in the menu for now (unless that upcoming datasheet jumps all LoW cost like crazy to "compensate" for the kulture rules and cp removal)

ork troops actually do work. the one thing that IS interesting out of all of this to me is a kill tank with giga shoota. 275 points for alot of dakka thats effectively always hitting on 4s

Giga shootas are pretty bad though unless your clearing out guard platoons, which albeit could be nice if guard become the dominant meta. A triple killtank filled with Manz rush list could be fun to play.

Personally I’m going to be trying out some deff dread and killa kan spam lists

gungo wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.

Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.

Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.

I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.

2 relics, 2 warlord traits and a strat to take 2 warbosses is at least 5cp Seems alot for a second warboss.

True, though to be fair, it's not like we use the CP for much on strats to begin with barring Ramming Speed and a few of the core Rulebook strats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Giga shootas are pretty bad though unless your clearing out guard platoons, which albeit could be nice if guard become the dominant meta. A triple killtank filled with Manz rush list could be fun to play.

Personally I’m going to be trying out some deff dread and killa kan spam lists

Yeah, unfortunately with AoC still being a thing, the Giga Shoota just doesn't cut the mustard, especially when you factor how it can effectively become AP0 against units in cover.

There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.

If thats true it changes everything for us.

 Jidmah wrote:
There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.

highly doubt the leaks are true. there were leaks before the last dataslate and they were all bunk too because none of this goes to print/early release for marketing etc.

edit: welp this aged poorly based on the DoG stream

i'd be willing to eat my shoe if they actually remove that rule.
The concept is fine, i wouldnt be upset if like Terminators had that mechanic or a Landraider, but the entire army...just...cmon...
Its honestly one of the main reasons i havnt even been playing orks much lately because i actually dont like playing goff and everything else just gets shafted by AoC and i mostly face marines.

Id like to see free weapons upgrades for ork infantry.

terennNash wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.

highly doubt the leaks are true. there were leaks before the last dataslate and they were all bunk too because none of this goes to print/early release for marketing etc.

I mean it got pulled from guard and some chaos recent books.

It would be good if they, at the very least, had a more nuanced approach where it wasn't the entire army and rather a few units and that it didn't stack with cover, since that's what really makes the AP requirement of TAC list become ridiculous because you need it to even make sure you can force them to take saves less than 2+ or 3+.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'd be willing to eat my shoe if they actually remove that rule.
The concept is fine, i wouldnt be upset if like Terminators had that mechanic or a Landraider, but the entire army...just...cmon...
Its honestly one of the main reasons i havnt even been playing orks much lately because i actually dont like playing goff and everything else just gets shafted by AoC and i mostly face marines.

Same here, these days I only bring out orks when I know I'm not playing against an AoC army. The rule might not be that powerful mathmatically, but when you have terminators taking 2+ saves against rokkits, it just sucks all the fun out of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

terennNash wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.

highly doubt the leaks are true. there were leaks before the last dataslate and they were all bunk too because none of this goes to print/early release for marketing etc.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/zwbqdz/rumours_from_the_death_or_glory_live_stream/

it looks that it is true, Vine and Jidmah, looks like it's shoe for dinner, here are some of the leaks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFwxM4EVyKo&ab_channel=AuspexTactics

Not much for us beside AoC and looks like nobs getting free upgrades. Still this is not the entire picture.
If true, double killsaw?

Rumour has it that Nobz will be getting either cheaper wargear or free wargear.

With free wargear I think they might become a viable, if niche, unit. In particular, filling the same role as trukk boys but actually aiming to do damage rather than bogging a unit down. Nobz main downsides are durability per point and damage per point, being not quite as good as either MANz as a brawler unit, or boys as a throwaway.

However, if their wargear becomes free, then they can get a turn one charge as trukk boys which effectively eliminates their fragility, and still hit decently hard with massed Klaw attacks.

From a mob of ten, 30 PK attacks and 10 choppa attacks before any Kultur or Waaagh bonuses is pretty darn good when you consider its only 90 points more than a barebones boys mob, and similar points of MANz would get half the PK attacks, but would have access to Hit Em Harder for better quality of attacks.

This is all speculation based on rumours, but definitely food for thought.

Free wargear would also mean free rokkits/skorchas.

 Jidmah wrote:
Free wargear would also mean free rokkits/skorchas.

PK/Kombi Skorcha nobz new meta confirmed.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Free wargear would also mean free rokkits/skorchas.

PK/Kombi Skorcha nobz new meta confirmed.

pretty sure kombi weapons take up both arm slots.

But if free weapon upgrades... then the newly made double kill saw nobz i just made will come in handy as trukkboyz.

Yep you change slugga and choppa for 2 1 handed weapons or kombi weapon. 8e book it was legal but 9e tightened up. Kombi model is just kombi weapon

Beardedragon wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Free wargear would also mean free rokkits/skorchas.

PK/Kombi Skorcha nobz new meta confirmed.

pretty sure kombi weapons take up both arm slots.

But if free weapon upgrades... then the newly made double kill saw nobz i just made will come in handy as trukkboyz.

You're correct. That's what I get for playing more Kill Team than 40k these days!

But if free weapon upgrades... then the newly made double kill saw nobz i just made will come in handy as trukkboyz.

evil suns 10 trukk nobz with double kill saws for 240 points including the trukk...thats as brutal as death company with hammers...flanked by a squad of bikers and bikerboss with rezmekkas redder paint for orks only source of fight last. 580 points in total and 1 cp for that, 2 if you want to make the boss more likely to live w/ ard as nails. pretty gnarly. just pray you go first or they lack S8 shooting

terennNash wrote:

But if free weapon upgrades... then the newly made double kill saw nobz i just made will come in handy as trukkboyz.

evil suns 10 trukk nobz with double kill saws for 240 points including the trukk...thats as brutal as death company with hammers...flanked by a squad of bikers and bikerboss with rezmekkas redder paint for orks only source of fight last. 580 points in total and 1 cp for that, 2 if you want to make the boss more likely to live w/ ard as nails. pretty gnarly. just pray you go first or they lack S8 shooting

As Goffs you can put them alongside Zagstruk (who can go in the trukk) or a Killa Klaw Bikerboss and really flatten something turn one

I was actually having thoughts about the whole free weapon upgrades thing before all this became a potential truth.

Though admittedly, i thought free weapons upgrades should be given to Nobz AND boyz minimum.

That way regular boyz would be a more interesting choice and more versatile choice over the beast snagga boys, which are surperior to regular boyz atm. And ofc make Nobz actually viable. But of course if nobz get free or cheaper upgrades, maybe boy nobz will too.