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 PaddyMick wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Also the consensus seems to be we wont be getting the patrol option? Only the arks of Omen? That fething sucks. I thought we could get an arks of Omen AND a patrol.

Yeah that's the way it's gone. Orks don't even get any allies. Evil Sunz can't ally with Goffs but any Imperium can ally with Votann.
So no double patrol and taking 2 specialist mobs any more. But you can get 2 warbossess and 3 character elite slots on top of normal elite slots.

i mean you could use the stratagem that allows for 2 warbosses on your specialist mobs if you wanted afaik. But you wouldnt get 2 warbosses then.

So, what do you think about trukknobz now? Seems that we're kinda forced to go for a t2 betta-strike now that planes have to start in reserves, enemies have significantly more firepower to deal with rigs and ghaz early on.

Personally, I never liked rigs and never got them. But I have 3 scrapjets and 2 mek planes. Also, 6 killa kanz. So, there's a thought in my mind: what about outflanking a squad of kanz together with planes and a trukkboy unit of either nobz or meganobz.mrganobz got no changes but nobz, on the other hand, got free bigchoppas and with a loss of aoc can hope to be mediocre once again.
The problem is that ghaz needs to live till t2 - meaning he has to hide for a turn. But if the betta strike hits well enough he can hope to dominate midfield from t3 and later on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, 5pt kskorchas for nobz. 290 for a unit of 10 with kskorchas and a trukk. They are very fragile, they need a place to hide but they hit kinda hard vs most stuff that's not toting 1+ armor.

But heres the thing, and, hear me out:

Enemies have more firepower but less durbility.

Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.

As Evil Sunz:
2x Trukk boy Nobz with big choppas (Because you spend 1 CP to be allowed to take 2), Some stormboyz flying 20 inches, 1 rig with Da reddest paint, 1 rig with squighide tires, Something else fast? Kommandos maybe for forward deploy?

Mega Dread “roll one more for charge and discrad lowest” combinet with the ramming speed “add 1 dice to roll” allowing you to have 3 x 4,5 = 13,5” charge in average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The crucial question is - what type of targets will be common in upcoming meta => what type of weapons shall we expect.

Last spring the big advetage of Speedmob was pretty common lack of heavy anti vehicle dakka on the other side of the table.

What is the situation now?
What shall we expect in upcoming months?

If meta = (big) vehicles => a lot of anti vehicle weapons => go full on Kommandos and all kind of footsloging infantry.

If meta = infantry => lack of anti vehicle weapons => let' s give Rigs and Wagons a ride!



Besides there is another issue - I' m very interested in your perspectives:

KOMMANDOS vs. US vs EU vs GW terrain with large ruins vs. WTC terrains with a lot of Lshapes

Some list runs a big blobs of 10 Kommandos. Some runs just the small ones.

I see some corelaction between

GW terrain / US tournaments = 10blobs of Kommandos

WTC / EU = smal squads

Nonsence or true?

Just played a game with one of national team player's for my country, placed 100 in last world tournament. I actually play with him from time to time but only found yesterday lol. Now i understand why he so easily demolishes us

He is a tyrannid player and we are in agreement that pre-move/infiltration/re-deploy will still be very powerful. I am not joking, he was playing with handicap and his tyrannid list completely shut us down(it was a 1000/1000pts ork/Tau vs 1500pts tyrannid)... was a local for fun game.
His words not mine is that we will probably see a resurgence of big bug's like hive tyrants and other beefy t8 units, he is assembling something resembling that. Or like i spotted in tacticaltortoise, a swarmy list with hormagaunts with big bugs to regenerate blocks of 15, moving across the ground supported with gene stealers for infiltration and 2 hive tyrants + brain bugs with the 3+ inv for spells and synapses + deny... Hive tyrants with 4+inv plus 5+fnp tanking a Beastboss on squigassaur on multiple activations is brutal and they heal next turn lol... this while ghaz is holding another 3 big bugs was epic...

It's tough to pin where the meta will land, it will depend a lot of who will dominate... shooting or melee.. with world eater's coming out... Cutodes and Admech going up, Ip also overperforming, votann remaining where it is, i can see shooting meta going forward (i have no idea where SM will land, neither will i attempt to predict)... with tyannids and harlies going down and these are highly mobile armies with high offensive power.. remains to be seen how it will shape thing's for us..

I do agree with Tomsug, that it will depend a lot on what will make the tables in the field.. Not sure Kill rigs are out though with free reserves it might be a good way to safeguard them, Kans and other similar units. We might even go t2 like he mentions instead of a alpha pressure.

Goff pressure is still good.. nothing really changed for orks… new ark of omen detachment doesn’t matter… blood axes supplement is gone.. we still need to complete the missions to win and goodbits is still the best bet… I guess ghaz is slightly worse now that biggest and baddest is gone and more units ignore wound caps..killrigs are still lethal for thier price and beastsnaggas are still good… the meta might shake up a little with space marines finally being decent but harlequins and even Tyranids took a beating and I’m not sure there was a lot more that held up goff pressure.

Kans are cheap now… not sure where those fit into goff horde BUT I can see them finally making some table time. I’m not thrilled with them as they have worse morale issues and not super reliable shooting or melee and they are slow but they are cheap…

ghaz is slightly worse now that biggest and baddest is gone and more units ignore wound caps

Ghaz is about to be come very local meta dependent. Marine armies will have no problem 1 turning ghaz, and dropping him over 2 turns isnt a huge endeavor with shooty marines being viable again. ghaz just moves too slow for not being able to go through walls or not having look out sir and no always fights first. i'd rather have 10 meganobs than Ghaz in just about every scenario.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah i miss the days of static cover saves. Basically an invul save for shooting only that some weapons ignored.

Unfortunately, lots of MEQ players were salty that it benefited armies like ours more, even though it still helped them against the increasing number of high AP weapons in previous editions, so that got nixed when the game got revamped. Marine players unfortunately have a very strong voice inside and outside the GW studio due to how much of a money maker they are.

And then they added static covers saves back into the game that is almost exclusivly MEQs!

There's been an interesting suggestion of using bc nobz instead of boyz.
It seems cool if you have that many. Not sure it's gonna be good enough to outweigh the body benefit for the green tide secondary. We'll see.

I am considering trying kommandos with nobz support with the jump. t2 you add kans/death dread, wazboom or kill rig

3 kommandos + 2 nobz + 2 weirdboys, added benefit for smites and other buffs, I would say double beastboss on squigassaur followed with squigboyz, but i don't have the models.. we will see.

I'm going with 3x10 Kommandos and 5 Trukkboyz Double Saw MANz with Zagstruk as my primary alpha strike.

Beta strike is 3x4 Squighogs, 5 Klaw MANz in a Wagon, Mega Dread and 2x Squigbosses.

3x10 grots look after objectives and a lone Mek Gun provides a minimum of shooting and sitting on home plate.

I think Nobs would be much more viable with free klaws, but we didn't get that. I don't value Big Choppas enough to consider them over MANz at this point, they just don't have the AP to compete.

Killa Kans with the Rokkit use to be 35+15=50p. Now, they are just 30+10=40p which is 20% down. That is massive and makes me to do some calculation about Killa Kanz vs. Scrapjets:

For 600p, you can have 6 MSJ or 15 Kans.

Kans are slower.
Kans have T5 vs. T6 but the base Sv is 3+ vs 4+
Both have Ramshackle.

Kans are 75W distributed by 5 (waste D3 and D3+3 weapons very vell).
MSJ are 54W distributed by 9 (do not waste so much).

Kans have 15D3 rokkit shots = 30 average hit on 4+ = 15 hits.
MSJ have 18D3+6 rokkit shots = 42 average hits on 5 = 14 hits.

Kans have 60 attacks 8/-3/3 hits 4+ = 30 hits
MSJ have 24 attacks 8/-2/D3 hits 4+ = 12 hits + can deal some MW in charge.

MSJ have a massive anti infantry shooting from their shootas.

Kans can be boosted by Waagh Banner to deal 30->40 hits 8/-3/3.

MSJ can benefit from Freeboota +1 to hit.

No conclusion, just calculation...

I think there might be some viability to massed Kanz and MANz, especially if you went for 3 wagons with your 6 HS slots. Just trying to drown the opponent in relatively tough wounds that they can't grind through in time.

Mega Armour Boss
KFF Mega Mek
3x10 Grots
3x5 MANz
3x Battlewagons
3x5 Rokkit Kans

That's about 1750ish points, with 51 T5 2+ wounds, 7 T6 2+ 5++ wounds, 48 T7 3+ Ramshackle wounds, and 75 T5 3+ Ramshackle wounds (not including Grots). It also has the KFF to blow up for the bigger 5++ for the MANz and Kanz.

Assuming it makes it to combat unscathed, it has a huge amount of high strength, high AP, high damage attacks in melee, and 15d3 Rokkit shots hitting on 4s.

It's probably just one big meme list but it would be super straightforward to pilot.

 Tomsug wrote:
Killa Kans with the Rokkit use to be 35+15=50p. Now, they are just 30+10=40p which is 20% down. That is massive and makes me to do some calculation about Killa Kanz vs. Scrapjets:

For 600p, you can have 6 MSJ or 15 Kans.

Kans are slower.
Kans have T5 vs. T6 but the base Sv is 3+ vs 4+
Both have Ramshackle.

Kans are 75W distributed by 5 (waste D3 and D3+3 weapons very vell).
MSJ are 54W distributed by 9 (do not waste so much).

Kans have 15D3 rokkit shots = 30 average hit on 4+ = 15 hits.
MSJ have 18D3+6 rokkit shots = 42 average hits on 5 = 14 hits.

Kans have 60 attacks 8/-3/3 hits 4+ = 30 hits
MSJ have 24 attacks 8/-2/D3 hits 4+ = 12 hits + can deal some MW in charge.

MSJ have a massive anti infantry shooting from their shootas.

Kans can be boosted by Waagh Banner to deal 30->40 hits 8/-3/3.

MSJ can benefit from Freeboota +1 to hit.

No conclusion, just calculation...

Small addendum: Buzzgob (the Goff Mek) buffs Kans too. +1 to hit

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think there might be some viability to massed Kanz and MANz, especially if you went for 3 wagons with your 6 HS slots. Just trying to drown the opponent in relatively tough wounds that they can't grind through in time.

Mega Armour Boss
KFF Mega Mek
3x10 Grots
3x5 MANz
3x Battlewagons
3x5 Rokkit Kans

That's about 1750ish points, with 51 T5 2+ wounds, 7 T6 2+ 5++ wounds, 48 T7 3+ Ramshackle wounds, and 75 T5 3+ Ramshackle wounds (not including Grots). It also has the KFF to blow up for the bigger 5++ for the MANz and Kanz.

Assuming it makes it to combat unscathed, it has a huge amount of high strength, high AP, high damage attacks in melee, and 15d3 Rokkit shots hitting on 4s.

It's probably just one big meme list but it would be super straightforward to pilot.

I like the list, but lacks mortal wounds source and i would downgrade to trucks to save on points... still good to give it a spin.. i still think nobs have a spot if you count them as boys that can actually wound t8, sure it's only -1 ap but it's something you can throw that does not require boss support and can hold before bigger threats arrive + can throw them away just like kommandos. 3 komandos + 2 nobz + 2 weirdboyz is just like 685pts

 Tomsug wrote:
Killa Kans with the Rokkit use to be 35+15=50p. Now, they are just 30+10=40p which is 20% down. That is massive and makes me to do some calculation about Killa Kanz vs. Scrapjets:

For 600p, you can have 6 MSJ or 15 Kans.

Did the new data slate get rid of the ridiculous limit of no more than 3 models per type of buggy?

Forceride wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I think there might be some viability to massed Kanz and MANz, especially if you went for 3 wagons with your 6 HS slots. Just trying to drown the opponent in relatively tough wounds that they can't grind through in time.

Mega Armour Boss
KFF Mega Mek
3x10 Grots
3x5 MANz
3x Battlewagons
3x5 Rokkit Kans

That's about 1750ish points, with 51 T5 2+ wounds, 7 T6 2+ 5++ wounds, 48 T7 3+ Ramshackle wounds, and 75 T5 3+ Ramshackle wounds (not including Grots). It also has the KFF to blow up for the bigger 5++ for the MANz and Kanz.

Assuming it makes it to combat unscathed, it has a huge amount of high strength, high AP, high damage attacks in melee, and 15d3 Rokkit shots hitting on 4s.

It's probably just one big meme list but it would be super straightforward to pilot.

I like the list, but lacks mortal wounds source and i would downgrade to trucks to save on points... still good to give it a spin.. i still think nobs have a spot if you count them as boys that can actually wound t8, sure it's only -1 ap but it's something you can throw that does not require boss support and can hold before bigger threats arrive + can throw them away just like kommandos. 3 komandos + 2 nobz + 2 weirdboyz is just like 685pts

I opted for wagons just for the sake of having more higher T wounds. Trukks just straight up die and don't do anything. At least a BW can bully smaller things with its rolla.

I want to be wrong about regular Nobs, I really do someone use them and prove that they're worth taking

That is a calculation. Not a list. 600p is lowest count where 40p and 100p meets

 Tomsug wrote:
That is a calculation. Not a list. 600p is lowest count where 40p and 100p meets

So the text equivalent of white noise. Because no one cares how many attacks you can get/what it's pts are/etc from a unit size that won't be involved in an actual game.

I am in same boat Afrodactyl. I shall try my best to find a use for them. But yeah i see your point with wagon's.

Beardedragon wrote:
Enemies have more firepower but less durbility.

Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.

I think they’ll be viable, but more importantly I agree with your overall point on going for turn 1 overwhelm the opponent.

People are gonna find out here pretty soon just how quickly new marines plus guard are going to be able to whittle us down. Killrigs and all our armor are going to get absolutely demolished with the mass of plasma and lascannons on every sm unit. A 100pt kaskrin guard unit can easily one shot a rig statistically with a couple cp investment.

I think our only choice from a competitive standpoint is gonna be msu greentide, especially with the buff to the secondary. It’ll be a struggle to open up guard tanks, but as long as your not giving your opponent any good targets for all their high damage/ap then you can probably live long enough to outscore them. Just my 2 cents anyway.

Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now

I am not seeing kans being played in more then 3 units.. like deffkoptas, the risk on moral roll is too big. unless you wish to spend cp to pass moral.

Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.

cody.d. wrote:
Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.

i mean. You will probably keep them in a transport in which, badruk wont give them his +1 to hit or what ever he does. or is it reroll 1s? Cant remember. They also wouldnt benefit from a painboy.

If you have flashgitz out in the open, its either because you want them dead, or because their transport died.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now

There are two major points about the Kans:

1. What you say - moral! Squad of 3 is max without serious risk. So max is about 3x3 which is pretty insignificant to build list around?

2. Score and prevent scoring! That is what' s all list building about. Kans are slow. No matter how potentialy good they are, the best they can do is to be the last defence lince or T3 openers. That is not a game plan to score & prevent scoring. Most of the armies will be almost ful of VPs in T3 if you let them. And there is no reasonable way how to make them faster - use 9” deepstrike is not “reasonable” unless used on Megadreads..

So the best Kanz can be is some kind of supporting unit waiting for the last turns to hold objective on the end. And let other units do the main job in first few turns.

Which is actually not bad, I remember one or two of such lists in last season.

So the point - is there - after masive price reduction - new use for the old Kanz? Doesn' t seem like that


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flaming tadpole wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Enemies have more firepower but less durbility.

Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.

I think they’ll be viable, but more importantly I agree with your overall point on going for turn 1 overwhelm the opponent.

People are gonna find out here pretty soon just how quickly new marines plus guard are going to be able to whittle us down. Killrigs and all our armor are going to get absolutely demolished with the mass of plasma and lascannons on every sm unit. A 100pt kaskrin guard unit can easily one shot a rig statistically with a couple cp investment.

I think our only choice from a competitive standpoint is gonna be msu greentide, especially with the buff to the secondary. It’ll be a struggle to open up guard tanks, but as long as your not giving your opponent any good targets for all their high damage/ap then you can probably live long enough to outscore them. Just my 2 cents anyway.

I have a same feeling. Which drives me crazy, I like to paint the large ork machines! I don' t wanna graze the tons of boyz…

Beardedragon - I made some experiments with ES a year ago already and the problems are that
1. There is not enough buffs to boost everything in your army. So just few boosted units will be the lone attackers and die. Alphacharge not strong enough.
2. The movement buffs are minor and makes your alpha charge not reliable enough…

Beardedragon wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.

i mean. You will probably keep them in a transport in which, badruk wont give them his +1 to hit or what ever he does. or is it reroll 1s? Cant remember. They also wouldnt benefit from a painboy.

If you have flashgitz out in the open, its either because you want them dead, or because their transport died.

It does limit the top output of the Flashgitz though. No gun crazy showoffs is a bit of a bummer. But a battlewagon with 10 flashgitz does come to just 320 with the obligatory deffrolla. That isn't an overly expensive investment all things considered.

Thoughts on kanz and nobz:

My biggest gripe with kanz is not their leadership but the fact that they give up VP too easilly for being vehicles. Squads of 3 if you just footslog them across the board. But i'm actually thinking we're not gona have any chances vs IG and SM if we simply slog and hope for the best. Their firepower is gona be too rediculous. Thus, i advocate for a more kunnin' approach.

Betta-strike! Where you try to hide 1-st turn with mostly anything and than jump out like crazy t2. Means smaller stuff, more infiltrate, no rigs, no wagons, no stuff like that... Get lotsa kommandoez - like 6*5 and get those sweet greentide points hiding behind los. Get your other stuff as small and fast as possible for the t2 rush - bikerboss, trukknobz, bikers, koptas, stormboyz - you name it... We get free outflank now, so, why not use it?!

Just imagine. The enemy rolls around the board hunting down your msu kommandoes and trying to get some view on those cowardly greenskins hugging the walls of ruins... and than WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! 2 blastajets arrive and wreck havok! A trukk full of nobz with kombiskorchas rushes in, they jump off, burn stuff to ashes and bonk people on the heads with their s9 bigchoppas! A bikerboss with a huge klaw slams into one flank and rips faces off elite warriors. And than... 6 freaking kanz with burnas show up on the other flank, drowning down some valualbe heavy support with napalm death from their crude but killy skorchas and than rush in at ramming speed to chop down the backline! What a glorious fight it's gona be!..

Ahem, got carried away a bit. Anywayz, i think 6 kanz are ok if you can outflank them and than charge in with ramming speed. And trukknobz with kskorchas and bigchoppas might be a good asset for this very t2 rush. If you happen to have Ghaz alongside, he should rush out of his cover too for the 3-d turn cleanup. And you're probably better off with ghaz as you do need bots extra ap for planes and kanz and extra durability with an attack in mellee.

This approach does need some decent blos terrain tho. Otherwise you'll simply loose all the stuff peacemeal. So, depends on your local tables for sure.

 koooaei wrote:
A trukk full of nobz with kombiskorchas rushes in, they jump off, burn stuff to ashes and bonk people on the heads with their s9 bigchoppas! A bikerboss with a huge klaw slams into one flank and rips faces off elite warriors. And than... 6 freaking kanz with burnas show up on the other flank, drowning down some valualbe heavy support with napalm death from their crude but killy skorchas and than rush in at ramming speed to chop down the backline! What a glorious fight it's gona be!..

[...]And trukknobz with kskorchas and bigchoppas might be a good asset for this very t2 rush.

Unfortunately I think it's pretty clear that you have to give up both the choppa and the slugga to get a kombi weapon, so each model is either-or. You don't even get the extra attack from the choppa after you equip a kombi weapon, and you can't get a big choppa on the same model.

Unless I misread something or something changed that I missed. If kombi-skorcha was in the first list, I think you could.

• Any number of models can each have their slugga and choppa replaced with two of the following: 1 big choppa; 1 choppa; 1 killsaw; 1 power klaw; 1 power stabba; 1 slugga.
• Any number of models can each have their slugga and choppa replaced with one of the following: 1 kombi-rokkit; 1 kombi-skorcha.

This is what I’d probably bring if I was going to LVO or something, which I’m not.
Battlescribe hasn’t updated the points yet, but the boys nob have kombiskorchas not power stabbas and nob squad is all BC’s. Pretty basic infantry spam overall. Strat would be turn 1 waaagh. Da jump burnas to clear screens for kommandos\trukknobz, fist of gork zagstruk, warpath nobz or another squad if not in range. Stormboyz I’d keep at least one unit in reserve depending on terrain. Turn two drop into backfield and fist squigboss. Little kommando squad hides on side obj. 5x10 boys blob up the middle with weird boyz and da jump snagga boyz as needed.

Might downgrade snaggas to regular boyz so my kommando squads can have a distraction grot which are honestly incredibly helpful against tanks which this list sucks against.