Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

terennNash wrote:

AoO detachment allows you to skip on troops if yours suck, and pivot in to fast attack or heavy without spending 2-3cp for an additional detachment to get more than 3 units.

That is an offcial marketing. But this argument is invalid. You had an option to take one Outrider/Vangauard etc detach with 6 of selected slots + some of others. And you could take two or three of such detachements and you had enough cps to do it. No troops tax. Big variability of lists. Absolutely no necessary for takeing the troops.

Twou outriders was 12 FA, 4 HS and 4 Elite slots.

But now with “no troops taxe”?

You can have 6 FA and no more than 3 HS and 3 Elite so you HAVE TO TAKE A TROOPS because you simply do not have enough slots.

It' s garbage and it' s fake argument.

The main benefit we got I think was being able to take triple killtank for free, except we can't take them now anyways because of sm/guard lol.

Touché

Not sure, the prob with going infantry heavy is, that has soon as you touch a shooter heavy army like IG or tau, your castle will crumble really fast, even with kommandos and waggons. If you can't hold them till turn 2 its GG.
I have my doubt's we have the resilience currently for that.

Currently going for full aggression, 3x4squigboys + 3x4warbikes + 3x10kommandos

Warbikers move 20, no-mansland is 24', even on a defensive deploy that's like an 8' charge
You can also give them claw.

That's 1020pts.

Oh if your salty about that wait till you hear about IG cavalry! pregame 6' +12" move +1' trait +2' order = 20' turn oh and they cost 200pts for 10.. check their profile and your pant's turn brown.

Back to ma previous analysis

7. Free startegic reserves - people are happy they can come out of the reserves for free.

This mean:
- a lot of people try to do it, so the screen with cheap fast lomg range shooting units will be importanf
- but not so much. Come from the reserves / DS is nothing great. Most of the armies deopes to 9” charge, which is garbage. Orks has big adventage with this, because we can utilise ramming speed, free rerol and Meka dread +1 dice. But nothing to write home about…
- generali coming in T2 is a garbage. A big garbage. If you go second, what happens?

- T1 your IG buddy shots a big part of your units downs. Than your turn and you shoot with small amount of your unita and have no chance to charge.
- T2 and second round of IG shooting. 50% of your list is down. AFTER that you come out of reserves with some of your units..

… as I said = garbage..

… but a lot of people try to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Forceride wrote:
Not sure, the prob with going infantry heavy is, that has soon as you touch a shooter heavy army like IG or tau, your castle will crumble really fast, even with kommandos and waggons. If you can't hold them till turn 2 its GG.
I have my doubt's we have the resilience currently for that.

Currently going for full aggression, 3x4squigboys + 3x4warbikes + 3x10kommandos

Warbikers move 20, no-mansland is 24', even on a defensive deploy that's like an 8' charge
You can also give them claw.

That's 1020pts.

Yes

Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL

Forceride wrote:
Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL

Squad of 10 averages 21 attacks, 42 hits (yep not kidding), at S6 -1AP. So thats 28 Dead Ork boyz a turn

SemperMortis wrote:

Forceride wrote:
Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL

Squad of 10 averages 21 attacks, 42 hits (yep not kidding), at S6 -1AP. So thats 28 Dead Ork boyz a turn

The only saving grace is that as cavalry they can't just kool-aid man through the walls and kill you that way, but with orders and other buffs, they hit waaaaay above their points cost. You have to hope that they get chokepointed between terrain and get them to make a bad charge so you can kill them via shooting.

 Tomsug wrote:
- T1 your IG buddy shots a big part of your units downs. Than your turn and you shoot with small amount of your unita and have no chance to charge.

Are you using terrain to hide? I suggest checking rules on what "obscuring" does.

IG for all their firepower still can't shoot through walls.

(yes they have indirect. Thanks to that getting nerfed in new book you are looking maybe squad of mortars at most. If 3 mortars shoot half of your army offboard in 1 turn with -1 to hit and +1 to your saves something's seriously wrong with your army).

At least here getting sight on turn 1 is pretty damn hard. If you have multiple questor knight level models then sure some are visible. But 1 plus other stuff hides well if you want to hide. Even more easily if half the army is in reserves.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now

Is the CC capability a must have?

Because if you can live without it, maybe you should consider a squadron of Grot Tanks.
1 higher ld, same bs/T/W/ramshackle. And each one can pack a KMB.
KMB damage can be a bit swingy, but with just a few good rolls even 1 of these things can cause alot of pain.
And you can play it safe & stick with rockets.

Another unit to consider is a Grot Mega-Tank- chock full of KMBs (or Rokkits if you prefer)

tneva82 wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:
- T1 your IG buddy shots a big part of your units downs. Than your turn and you shoot with small amount of your unita and have no chance to charge.

Are you using terrain to hide? I suggest checking rules on what "obscuring" does.

Ok, I admit that I spent last 2-3 years playing buggy armies covering 60% of my deployment zone so I ´m pretty TAUmatized.

Anyway, two points could be relevant anyway:
1. Units comming from reserves can shoot no earlier than T2 and do anything else no earlier than T3 from 5. Few exceptions. And that is a lot.
2. Good screening would be super killy in such meta. A year ago I played againts guy from spanish national team with fast necron list. I ´ve put my koptas and wazbooms in reserves. He screened the whole field except area stucked by my own units by his movement T1 and de facto killed me 900p.

I did the same trick againts Eldar guy who dinished 2nd later on last year Prague Open after that and almost did the same. Of course, the Gork sits in the details and there are some different details depending who is the guy doing this trick. The good guys do it right. I ´m mediocre guy…

ccs wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now

Is the CC capability a must have?

Because if you can live without it, maybe you should consider a squadron of Grot Tanks.
1 higher ld, same bs/T/W/ramshackle. And each one can pack a KMB.
KMB damage can be a bit swingy, but with just a few good rolls even 1 of these things can cause alot of pain.
And you can play it safe & stick with rockets.

Another unit to consider is a Grot Mega-Tank- chock full of KMBs (or Rokkits if you prefer)

Grot tanks have the same amount of firepower as the Kans per point, but the Kans have more wounds and can actually defend themselves if they get charged. Granted, the tanks are faster, so you might be able to keep them from being charged.

The Mega tank might be a decent choice, 7 rokkits/kmbs for the same cost as 4 kans makes for a a passable suicide gunship.

The main issue with the Grot Tanks, from where I'm standing at least, is that they're FA as opposed to HS. I don't know about everyone else, but I need my 3 FA slots for my Squighogs, and my Arks choice is Elites. If I could trim anything from my list it would be the HS slots.

Our FA choices are arguably the best things we have in the book outside of HQ choices, so it's hard to justify a FA slot over Squighogs, any of the Buggies, Koptas or Stormboys.

I don't see any major benefit of taking Grot Tanks over the alternatives, unless someone can show me something I've missed.

The more I work on AoO list the more I detachement insanely stupid.

There is simply not enough slots. It' s the same like it used to be with the speedmob. It' s hard to even fill 2000p without LOW, teo wazbooms, huge squads that die instantly on morale or TROOPS! Go to hell with your “no troops tax”! This is the biggest troop tax ever…

Yeah, Grot Mega Tank is fun! In average 7 hits 8/-3/D6. No idea why is it a FA…

SemperMortis wrote:

Forceride wrote:
Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL

Squad of 10 averages 21 attacks, 42 hits (yep not kidding), at S6 -1AP. So thats 28 Dead Ork boyz a turn

I hope you haven't forgotten the 2+S on charge, rerolls and MW to vehicles
It's a fortune IG codex is currently illegal by GW own admission.

I still need to try out kans.. i don't think its a turn 1 unit... reason is you want them to shoot not CC, that's a bonus.. so leave them in reserve. I think their nice for 120pts.

I return the comment from Afrodactyl on grot tanks and mega-tanks, being FA there are better choices.
In my list's the only shooting unit i take in FA is ruukkatruck with nitro squigs, it's really reliable doing wounds to just about anything with's weapons profile and the -1W

I haven't played against new IG cavalry too many times yet, but it doesn't really seem like they're any major threat to orks or even most armies tbh. They have zero synergies with the rest of their army. You can't keep them back to use as a counter charge because they're too squishy and will just get shot off the board. You can hide them but then we just charge the rest of their army and they can clean up the scraps after they're shooting phase which won't really be much. So they're only real use is a turn 1 missile unit, but you can screen that pretty easily. Worst case scenario is they kill a 125pt kommando squad turn 1 and then die and/or wait for us to charge their whole army and they clean up a damaged squad or two after the game is essentially decided already.

They would be played as a distraction, even if their shot, their so cheap it's really not a issue, and if their opponent does not clean them it's guaranteed to be in you deployment making problems.
Another thing is your dedicating shooting to remove a throwaway unit, shooting that could go into tanks which will quickly cause issues moving forward. And yes their a 1 turn missile, but we do the same with kommandos at 375pts... and while kommandos are bit more survival their also a lot less killy. Pick your poison.

Synergies with the rest of the armies really don't matter if you sacrifice 200pts and keep 1000+ back. Also does not need synergies to overperform.

Really depends how it's used, it's like our kommandos but a lot better.

Obviously you have combos like the new karkin or what ever their called spreading 6MW but that's granted to be nerfed.. but yeah you can pick those if you want something even better.
Plus i never said their the best unit around, but it complements IG very well as a throw away... something that it would be auto take in our armies.

There is also a third point, which is mental games, since knowing your opponent has them you need to deploy in a different way...
Anyway this is just a point of view i wished to share at the humongous discrepancy between IG which is supposed to be a shooty armie but has a really good cavalry and us a melee armies which has a rather more mediocre one... My squigboys are always focused fired and deleted from game, my fail at hide them, my fault.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I haven't played against new IG cavalry too many times yet, but it doesn't really seem like they're any major threat to orks or even most armies tbh. They have zero synergies with the rest of their army. You can't keep them back to use as a counter charge because they're too squishy and will just get shot off the board. You can hide them but then we just charge the rest of their army and they can clean up the scraps after they're shooting phase which won't really be much. So they're only real use is a turn 1 missile unit, but you can screen that pretty easily. Worst case scenario is they kill a 125pt kommando squad turn 1 and then die and/or wait for us to charge their whole army and they clean up a damaged squad or two after the game is essentially decided already.

Current IG is a multi threat turn 1 alpha strike… you have the rough riders as a long range charge threat that can absolutely trade up on points unless properly screened… they receive orders and buffs and charge turn 1.. run the lord solar up with at least 2 units and it’s a pretty brutal combo.

You have your mandatory Barbarint key kaskrin, again buffed up with orders, and the mortal wound, and deepstrike multiple targets to death…

You keep back another kaskrin unit or place it in transport….

All supported by multiple cheap plasma leman russ (and a gatekeeper relic battle cannon) long range fire support and sentinels who can also be buffed up…
The only issue is multiple units want orders and they all kind of love the lord solar full rerolls… but it’s good to either have a super durable command squad or ursela creed +1 str orders..

I may have missed this in the 170 pages of this topic, but does the Rule of 3 prevent taking (for example) 3 units of 3 Deff dreds, which per codex become 9 separate units once deployed in the AoOmen detachment?

Goreshrek wrote:
I may have missed this in the 170 pages of this topic, but does the Rule of 3 prevent taking (for example) 3 units of 3 Deff dreds, which per codex become 9 separate units once deployed in the AoOmen detachment?

Nope-it's three copies of the same datasheet. Pay attention to deployment, but you can take 9 Deff Dreads as long as they only take three slots.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
I haven't played against new IG cavalry too many times yet, but it doesn't really seem like they're any major threat to orks or even most armies tbh. They have zero synergies with the rest of their army. You can't keep them back to use as a counter charge because they're too squishy and will just get shot off the board. You can hide them but then we just charge the rest of their army and they can clean up the scraps after they're shooting phase which won't really be much. So they're only real use is a turn 1 missile unit, but you can screen that pretty easily. Worst case scenario is they kill a 125pt kommando squad turn 1 and then die and/or wait for us to charge their whole army and they clean up a damaged squad or two after the game is essentially decided already.

they will get shot off the board and cant be used as a counter charge? What shooting do you intend to shoot them with as a goff army? they are very much a dangerous unit against orks. And you can hide them. theres plenty of obscurring terrain on WTC style maps. hell even on GW tables with those 4 large squares. while i know they cant go through it, if they can move 20 inches, thats pretty good.

Sorry shooting I meant more for other armies, grammar is hard. I do understand their killy potential, they'd be a nightmare for knights. My point is that orks don't care if you annihilate an 80-125 pt squad turn 1. They're movement isn't that insane that you should have trouble screening them or preventing them from doing a multi-charge. If they hang back turn 1 then they die to kommandos because you should be waaghing turn 1 10/10 times against guard in this meta unless your doing some half army in reserves type shenanigans.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Sorry shooting I meant more for other armies, grammar is hard. I do understand their killy potential, they'd be a nightmare for knights. My point is that orks don't care if you annihilate an 80-125 pt squad turn 1. They're movement isn't that insane that you should have trouble screening them or preventing them from doing a multi-charge. If they hang back turn 1 then they die to kommandos because you should be waaghing turn 1 10/10 times against guard in this meta unless your doing some half army in reserves type shenanigans.

I dont see my self waaaghing turn 1 in most cases, even against Imperial guard. Unless they went first and moved up the board.

Most proper GT tables have proper terrain that allows you to hide most your army in obscurring anyway. have you seen the standard GW tables with those 4 massive buildings? They'd be amazing against GW.

Unless you use really big units you should be able to hide most things. If i dont use evil sunz and plan to turn 1 waaagh regardless if i went first or not, then i need to get turn 1, otherwise im dead. because playing Goffs and maybe using rigs and squig hogs, i wont reach the enemy turn 1 if i start in obscurring.


But i WILL be obscurred, because playing the game, the way where you stand outside of obscurring simply hoping to get turn 1 to may be reach the enemy and may be win, is a terrible way to play.


But on another note i am trying out ideas with evil sunz turn 1 charge in mind actually. So it might work. But if you go Goffs, i dont see how you should get enough soldiers to the front on turn 1, while still remaining in obscurring.

So ill be starting in obscurring, if my enemy gets turn 1 theres a decent chance ill waaagh round 1 because he will most likely move closer. If i get turn 1, i wont be waaaghing in most cases.

Turn 1 Beardedragon? Bikes, Stormboyz, kommandos, deftkoptas, and the buggies with flamers... truckboys but nobz, you get more punch, or meganobz even more.. not sure, can't see anything in heavy worth while for T1
Also you don't get proper T1 HQ since nothing rides that fast, unless you put a boss on the truck.. Weird boy for the jump but it's 9' charge...

ymmv, but I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges and are gonna be the only viable target. Unless you keeping them all in reserves, but then your probably only making like 1 charge with them next turn. I haven't practiced much with mass reserves yet so idk if it's gonna be our way going forward this meta or not. With DS I could see it being good.

I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges

they are starting 12-9" off the enemy line and move 6", how are you not making 3-6" charges rerolled?

Forceride wrote:
Turn 1 Beardedragon? Bikes, Stormboyz, kommandos, deftkoptas, and the buggies with flamers... truckboys but nobz, you get more punch, or meganobz even more.. not sure, can't see anything in heavy worth while for T1
Also you don't get proper T1 HQ since nothing rides that fast, unless you put a boss on the truck.. Weird boy for the jump but it's 9' charge...

Edit: When i say waaagh turn 1, i mean the normal waaagh. I find no reason why you shouldnt be able to call a speed waaagh or great waaagh turn 1. By all means that can make sense a lot of the times.

Im not saying you CANT charge turn one, im saying, that building your army so that you HAVE to do this is probably not going to be a good idea.

Making a turn 1 charge if it makes sense isnt bad, especially if your opponent went first and thus moved closer, but if you force yourself in to playing that your army build has to go first, and you are going to turn 1 waaagh no matter what, then it doesnt take a super experienced opponent to simply screen out your frontal charge with chaff units. The only thing he has to deal with is a unit of trukk boys, 3 units of kommandos and 3 units of stormboys. because all your warbikers will be bottlenecked in the ruin path ways, and your 7 units of stormboys/kommandos/trukk boys will probably be forced to attack easy chaff infantry to a degree, where you will end up attacking 1 of his units with 2 of yours, because of how he deployed his units.

Especially in this new meta where space marines have roughly 400 more points to go with.

Also, the only way to make a turn 1 charge properly with deffkoptas, when YOU get turn 1 is by using ramming speed. They cant advance and charge, and "only" move 14 inches. While 14 is great, they still cant advance and charge, so if they stand on the deployment zone itself you have a 10 inch charge which you will probably fail without ramming speed. But most people dont really stand directly on the deployment zone but probably a bit behind it on terrain so in most cases, this 10 inch charge will end up being an 11 or 12" charge.

I once played against an evil sunz player who had exactly stormboys, kommandos and warbikers and what not and i figured he would go for a turn 1 charge, so i just blocked up the frontline with 3 units of kommandos.

Forcing your enemy to make a crappy turn 1 charge really isnt that difficult, thats why ive played most my 9th edition games with the mind set that i dont WANT to charge turn 1, unless it makes sense to do so. But forcing yourself to having to go turn 1, just makes any experienced player put their most crappy units in the front, or screen out path ways so that warbikers cant get through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
ymmv, but I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges and are gonna be the only viable target. Unless you keeping them all in reserves, but then your probably only making like 1 charge with them next turn. I haven't practiced much with mass reserves yet so idk if it's gonna be our way going forward this meta or not. With DS I could see it being good.

I went to a few GTs with 30 kommandos as a goff army. in most battles my kommandos were still very much active by round 2 because you either place them in obscurring if the building has windows, or inside the building if its a solid massive building with no windows.

In most cases, the only way to kill the kommandos is by charging them. If you put them 9" from the enemy deployment zone and you dont get turn 1, they are dead. 100%.


If you put them more defensively, maybe in a windowless building 6 inches in front of your deployment zone, you are close enough that you can attack their units going up to objectives, but far enough away that the enemy cant go around the building to shoot them.

Its kinda difficult to really write its easier to show. But my point is, out of most my games, at GTs and locals, my kommandos dying round 1? didnt really happen.

terennNash wrote:

I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges

they are starting 12-9" off the enemy line and move 6", how are you not making 3-6" charges rerolled?

I probably play on slightly different tables. Usually ends up being a good 10”+ charge for me assuming the opponent doesn’t deploy right on the edge.

Yeah, there are two big problems with the opponents and their deployment.

First, they tend to deploy in cover and out of LOS if I have a shooting army.
Second, they deploy in the back of their deploy, if I have a melee army.



Beardragon, thanks for a good analasys. Especially I agree on how to deploy Komamndos.

But this is a relevant point tearing down the charge T1 concept. I made a lot of experiments about it before the Speedmob come on the tables.

What you need is the AVERAGE charge range about 28-30”. What we get is mostly about 23-25”.

That is simply not enough. Not reliable enough.

 Tomsug wrote:
Yeah, there are two big problems with the opponents and their deployment.

First, they tend to deploy in cover and out of LOS if I have a shooting army.
Second, they deploy in the back of their deploy, if I have a melee army.



Beardragon, thanks for a good analasys. Especially I agree on how to deploy Komamndos.

But this is a relevant point tearing down the charge T1 concept. I made a lot of experiments about it before the Speedmob come on the tables.

What you need is the AVERAGE charge range about 28-30”. What we get is mostly about 23-25”.

That is simply not enough. Not reliable enough.

Yea.. well today ill be trying out some evil sunz shinanigans by coincidence against Admech. My point will be attempting to go turn 1 charge if that makes sense, but if it doesnt (and it probably wont) then ill be going for a turn 2 charge. Im not doing it because of our talk its really just a coincidence.

But thats already the thing isnt it. if you ARENT going for a turn 1 charge, why the hell are you even playing evil sunz with a melee army? The opponent usually is close enough to your forces by round 2 that you could easily charge them even with a goff or death skulls army. We will have to see if going for a round 2 charge might be relevant still with evil sunz. It might, or it might just be a waste of my extra movement.

But what ever, ill be trying out evil sunz. But even if i do that, i still wont put my kommandos in a suicide position if they dont get turn 1. But i still have warbikers and stormboys + warboss on bike. I also have 2 less evil sunz related units in 2 rigs with 10 boys in it. 1 with squig hide tyres, and one with rezmekkas reddest paint.

I dont know if i expect a win, but it'll be fun to try out. I suppose if i get turn 1 i can still move up in obscurring, and then have my stormboys fly 20 inches afterwards. That way at least even his backline is threatened. By having 2 rigs with boys in it i dont feel like i can afford a unit of trukkboys though. Which would probably be a good addition otherwise. or even Deffkoptas. maybe.

But its not a super serious army, but i did feel like i wanted to try it out.

Do it and report the result!

I see the point of ES in move twice strat. A lot of interesting stuff can be done with it.

For example - if go first you can roadblok half of the map 3.1” in front of the opponent CC army with few warbikers with their 34” move for about 100p.

Or you can hide the Koptas speedmob style of fight.

Redder paint is also pretty interesting.

Adv+charge seems to be pretty useless imho.