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2023/03/16 06:38:22
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: It's not even meta dependent - crusade is usually played at 500-1000 points because otherwise you go insane with the book keeping, unit traits and extra complexity that missions tend have. Armies just don't have that many vehicles at those point levels. I think my primary sources of scrap in the last campaign I played orks in was the CCB of a necron player. Whenever I needed scrap for a kustom job, I had to spend requisition for it.
It also doesn't help that almost all crusade stuff is limited to INFANTRY or CAVALRY, essentially screwing over any attempt to run a speed waaagh.
The fact is that GW screw the whole speedwaagh totaly. There is absolutely no way how to play it now. I 'm really pissed of because of it.
While I stopped playing GT a good while ago, at least in Tempest of War, Thrakka Speedwaaagh! works well enough.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/03/16 20:13:00
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I share the sentiment of Jidmah, it's not only speedwaagh, green tide, dread tide etc are also in the bin currently, sure you can play fluff with them, but at least for me, it isn't a good game if i don't provide a challenge to my opponent. I blame all on the internal balance of codex. All in the name to push the new models.
I like some of the new models, but sucks their the best the codex has to offer, limiting other playstyles.
2023/03/18 10:38:08
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Both CI for this week are out and let' s say few common facts:
- well, goffs. One army type only. The good is - there is a lot variations at least…
- killrigs or wagons? With or without Ghazzy? Nobz or Meganobz? In Vehicles or footslogging? The answer is YES. it doesn' t matter, it works obviously all.
- check the players names - Ben Jurek, Lukas Troller,… these are native profi players playing anything that hits the meta. So it seems, orks became the big dogs.
Meganobz [12 PL, 180pts]: Trukk Boyz
. Boss Meganob: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
Mek [2 PL, 25pts]: Choppa, Kustom Mega-Slugga
Nobz [12 PL, 220pts]
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
Boss Zagstruk [6 PL, 110pts]: Blitz Missiles, Choppa, Da Vulcha's Klaws, Slugga
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Weirdboy Staff
Despite changing armies to meet the meta, all those guys are ork veterans though. It's not like the marine-eldar-tau faction is suddenly switching to orks and running them to top finishes.
Which means that orks are in a good place to win tournaments when piloted by an experienced warboss. And for what feels like the the first time ever, it's not by exploiting an unintended rules interaction in our codex, spamming op models or skewing against the meta. Orks are winning by being orks. Despite my earlier opinion on how the codex plays, GW definitely deserves kudos for finally getting it right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/18 14:35:53
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/03/18 22:35:43
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: Despite changing armies to meet the meta, all those guys are ork veterans though. It's not like the marine-eldar-tau faction is suddenly switching to orks and running them to top finishes.
Which means that orks are in a good place to win tournaments when piloted by an experienced warboss. And for what feels like the the first time ever, it's not by exploiting an unintended rules interaction in our codex, spamming op models or skewing against the meta. Orks are winning by being orks. Despite my earlier opinion on how the codex plays, GW definitely deserves kudos for finally getting it right.
I still say this is more by accident than anything else.
Not sure. Judging from everything ork surrounding Arks of Omen (GT, dataslate, boarding patrol rules, snikrot model) they seem to have shifted from "not giving a feth, but make it look as if we did" to "invest as little as possible, but at least get that small commitment right".
Ah, one thing maybe important - there are multiple rumors flying around of FW closing down their 40k line for good, maybe even with 10th edition launch. If you need anything for your display case, you should order it soon.
I would also very much expect warboss on warbike and nob bikers to disappear when the next codex hits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/18 23:33:25
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/03/19 00:08:21
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Jidmah wrote: Despite changing armies to meet the meta, all those guys are ork veterans though. It's not like the marine-eldar-tau faction is suddenly switching to orks and running them to top finishes.
Which means that orks are in a good place to win tournaments when piloted by an experienced warboss. And for what feels like the the first time ever, it's not by exploiting an unintended rules interaction in our codex, spamming op models or skewing against the meta. Orks are winning by being orks. Despite my earlier opinion on how the codex plays, GW definitely deserves kudos for finally getting it right.
I still say this is more by accident than anything else.
Egh orks have been solid ever since they redid our secondaries (get da good bits especially).. overall though ya it’s been good with the large amount of units that do well for orks… it’s mainly melee pressure stuff that need the little extra push from being goff to hit just hard enough. I don’t expect it to last if there is any codex creep.. but orks are solid right now.
Regarding lack of klan diversity or playstyle. I don’t like how separated the waaagh, speedwaagh system is…
I want to see all warbosses have regular Waagh, speedboss have speedwaagh and big Mek able to call dread Waagh.. in the same game if you want!!! (But they don’t stack) And/Or ghaz calling all 3.
Dread Waagh would specifically buff dreads…
2023/03/19 09:44:17
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Basically Speedwaaagh needs a tiny buff to make it comparable to regular Waaagh and give people a reason to run speedwaaagh again, and then every klan that isn't Goffs or Deathskulls needs a little buff to bring them up to speed.
Then the codex will be perfect
2023/03/19 10:09:26
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Afrodactyl wrote: Basically Speedwaaagh needs a tiny buff to make it comparable to regular Waaagh and give people a reason to run speedwaaagh again, and then every klan that isn't Goffs or Deathskulls needs a little buff to bring them up to speed.
Then the codex will be perfect
Speedwaagh needs basicly two changes:
- secondaries for buggy / biker army
- the way around the FA slot limitations. You cannot build a speedwaagh with 6 FA slots. Simply cannot. What you can do is just some kind of mixed buggy / wagon / trukk army with infantry max. The good start in this could be the old “after deploy count as independent unit” rule on buggies. Because hold them in a unit is a pain. The second option could. “Warbikers count as troops in speedwaagh”. That would be marvelous.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/19 10:11:16
Egh orks have been solid ever since they redid our secondaries (get da good bits especially).. overall though ya it’s been good with the large amount of units that do well for orks… it’s mainly melee pressure stuff that need the little extra push from being goff to hit just hard enough. I don’t expect it to last if there is any codex creep.. but orks are solid right now.
Regarding lack of klan diversity or playstyle. I don’t like how separated the waaagh, speedwaagh system is…
I want to see all warbosses have regular Waagh, speedboss have speedwaagh and big Mek able to call dread Waagh.. in the same game if you want!!! (But they don’t stack) And/Or ghaz calling all 3.
Dread Waagh would specifically buff dreads…
Again, I say this is more by accident than anything else. Keep in mind, orkz were in a really poor place before GW game out with our new rules, and what were the new rules? We get an Army wide 5++ for a full turn and a 6++ for a 2nd turn. That isn't a little buff, that is HUGE! But even with that massive buff it still wasn't enough to bring orkz into competitive mode and they had to further increase the WAAAAGH special rule to give +1 strength as well. Overnight your average Ork boy went from getting gunned off the table without an armor save and only wounding on 4s in combat to surviving 33% more often and wounding on 3s giving him 25% more dmg. If the codex had been written well this wouldn't have been necessary. I really want to emphasize this point, these were not little buffs, these were quite literally meta changing buffs for orkz.
The supreme Irony behind both buffs is that it still isn't enough to make Orkz competitive, what pushed us over the edge into the competitive zone wasn't units it was Secondaries like you guys said. Get the good bitz is almost an automatic 15pts, getting 10man units into table quarters is relatively easy now as well. And the buff to get the good bitz just proves GW doesn't understand orkz that much. It was already our easiest/best secondary and it didn't need a buff, but they added in more benefits and the attempt to make it useful for lootas... yeah. I can only think that they thought Lootas were almost good enough to be brought that a little buff like scoring on your turn would push them over the edge as well....nope, I'd still rather take 120pts of Grots who can do 3 objectives rather than 5 lootas who cost 60% as much and are definitely not as durable.
SemperMortis wrote: [Again, I say this is more by accident than anything else. Keep in mind, orkz were in a really poor place before GW game out with our new rules, and what were the new rules? We get an Army wide 5++ for a full turn and a 6++ for a 2nd turn. That isn't a little buff, that is HUGE! But even with that massive buff it still wasn't enough to bring orkz into competitive mode and they had to further increase the WAAAAGH special rule to give +1 strength as well. Overnight your average Ork boy went from getting gunned off the table without an armor save and only wounding on 4s in combat to surviving 33% more often and wounding on 3s giving him 25% more dmg. If the codex had been written well this wouldn't have been necessary. I really want to emphasize this point, these were not little buffs, these were quite literally meta changing buffs for orkz.
It is worth noting that the team writing the codices has been hinted to mostly not be the same people as the one writing GT rules and thus the dataslate. Stu Black at least claims to be an ork player, so the members of the balance team have infinitely more knowledge about how orks works - and IMO it's showing. Krumpy infantry being the one archetype properly working could either be a reflection of his play style, or they might also have deemed speed waaagh too borked to fix.
Also keep in mind that their mission also is not to fix codices, but make a codex have a decent average win rate in competitive, which means a single working archetype is sufficient.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/19 20:31:55
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/03/19 20:45:32
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
What I see especially interesting:
- all armies brand new Index incl. FW models apparently ready to play since day 1 = expect brand new meta over the summer.
- "Army selection is equally straightforward: pick a faction, a warlord, and the units you like (just no more than three of any one type*), and stay within your points limit. That’s it!" = speedwaagh could be back!!
- new edition seems to be Space Marine time. The blue smurfs deserve it IMHO.. So the meta will be termies and marines.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/03/23 11:28:16
What I see especially interesting:
- all armies brand new Index incl. FW models apparently ready to play since day 1 = expect brand new meta over the summer.
- "Army selection is equally straightforward: pick a faction, a warlord, and the units you like (just no more than three of any one type*), and stay within your points limit. That’s it!" = speedwaagh could be back!!
Hopefully you can still pick more than 3 of Toops & transports.....
2023/03/23 14:34:43
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Assuming we can basically take whatever we want in our lists, I think I'll still stick with a fairly balanced mix of units in case they revert to a more restrictive force org chart.
2023/03/23 21:43:45
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
On the stream they also said that if a unit (like a captain) has an ability, that ability can only be used once, no matter how many of that unit you have on the board.
This is meant to reward having many different units on the board as opposed to just spamming 3 of the best few units.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/03/24 07:47:14
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Have had a hiatus from my beloved Orks for CSM a while, but the 10th announcement has me excited for all things green again. The reason being reactive and specialized rules packed into units. As we are one of the quirkiest armies out there I imagine we could get some truly fun (and good stuff).
E.g. Kommandos will probably come with some built in extra shot representing Squigs. Different Warbosses with different Waagh!'s. Etc. The design space is some much more exciting
2023/03/24 13:38:39
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
I'm hesitantly excited, if only because morale seems to be finally moving away from a "lose more" mechanic now that running away/losing models doesn't seem to be the main result from failing it. It also opens up opportunities for us when it comes to shooting, because having separate profiles for different weapons means that it can make certain weapon upgrades more accurate without needing to boost the entire unit's BS or having a specific rule caveat for a weapon giving +1BS or something. (So now the Shokkjump Dragsta's shokk rifle can just be BS3+ without needing the extra text, while things like rokkit launchas or Shootas could hit on BS4+ base). It would also help out a lot for units like Morkanauts where they get better accuracy for their AT/Anti-Elite weaponry.
I'm hoping that this also means better weapon stat variety for Ork melee weapons, like a Warboss' power klaw being more killy baseline than a rando Nobz.
Hopefully the new datasheet abilities for support units like Painboyz, Big Meks and Weirdboyz are given a major overhaul so we can take them without feeling like they're dead weight.
2023/03/24 21:33:39
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
It’s hard to say anything it’s a full reset like they did in 7th?…
I mean a lot of the caps they put in place (wound cap, to hit cap, etc) will go away as it’s not needed with less buffs and more limited buff stacking..
I mean if anyone was here for the last reset balance will be bad at first and then an errata will come out.. and then balance is mostly good until a new codex that adds a bunch of new rules and abilities changes that starts the power creep again.
It sounds like they want to keep a basic design of a set amount of buffs and rules to one page and just adding new ways to do that beginning with a supplement for codex ultramarines first company, etc…
40K does need a reset they pushed the power creep way to hard
2023/03/25 01:38:03
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Vineheart01 wrote: to my knowledge the only other full reset theyve done is 8th, which was initially received well and then it QUICKLY fell out of control.
Things got completely reset going from Rogue Trader into 2e.
Things got completely reset going from 2e into 3e.
Things got completely reset going from 7e into 8e.
And now from 9e into 10e.
2023/03/28 00:53:02
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
Gonna miss the day when to explain a weapon you could just say the imperial equivalents. Made things easier to explain your equipment. "It's a power fist, an assault heavy bolter, a bolt pistol, a krak missle launcher but with assault"
Now 3 models with a power klaw could all be so different even the ork player forgets.
2023/03/29 10:58:10
Subject: Re:Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
cody.d. wrote: Gonna miss the day when to explain a weapon you could just say the imperial equivalents. Made things easier to explain your equipment. "It's a power fist, an assault heavy bolter, a bolt pistol, a krak missle launcher but with assault"
Now 3 models with a power klaw could all be so different even the ork player forgets.
Different stats for the same weapon makes the unit cards required for playing, since it will be more difficult to memorize.
2023/03/29 11:53:45
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
The new "Warboss" novel was awesome. If you read any books at all, you should pick it up. The story is told from the perspective of a Goff Megaboss, a Speedboss riding a deffkilla wartrike, a bloodaxe warboss and a grot leading the local grot revolution.
I really like about the novel that the ork character cast actually did know what they were doing, and succeed precisely because of their ork logic, not despite of it.
It was really refreshing that they aren't just mindless beasts stumbling into victory because they outnumber their enemies 1:100.
While it's very much a typical black library bolter shoota porn book, orks and orky randomness really do a lot to make the story unique. I actually had to laugh out loud multiple times while reading it.
If you are interested in ork lore whatsoever, I very much suggest reading it.
Spoiler:
There also is an eldar avatar not tripping over its own two feet for once, I though that was a nice touch.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/29 11:56:27
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
2023/03/29 13:26:23
Subject: Might makes Right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics
The new "Warboss" novel was awesome. If you read any books at all, you should pick it up. The story is told from the perspective of a Goff Megaboss, a Speedboss riding a deffkilla wartrike, a bloodaxe warboss and a grot leading the local grot revolution.
I really like about the novel that the ork character cast actually did know what they were doing, and succeed precisely because of their ork logic, not despite of it.
It was really refreshing that they aren't just mindless beasts stumbling into victory because they outnumber their enemies 1:100.
While it's very much a typical black library bolter shoota porn book, orks and orky randomness really do a lot to make the story unique. I actually had to laugh out loud multiple times while reading it.
If you are interested in ork lore whatsoever, I very much suggest reading it.
Spoiler:
There also is an eldar avatar not tripping over its own two feet for once, I though that was a nice touch.
Thanks for the recommendation - I like the 40K military fiction books, and I have been longing for a book written from the perspective of Orks.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.