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2021/09/02 23:27:17
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
ccs wrote: Model companies - GW or any other - have always made mono-pose models. Always will. Toy soldiers, cars, planes, tanks, terrain, or whatever else, in whatever scale or material.
And GW has had tons of non-mono-pose models as well, but now they make less of them. Do you understand that yet?
ERJAK wrote: Let's be real. The old marines never looked right. Bowlegged and with thighs out of an Anorexia clinic.
Sure were popular for something that "never looked right". Moreover, the "bowlegged" argument doesn't really hold water when you compare it to morerecentkits.
Daedalus81 wrote: And Toby Macguire was an awesome Spiderman until Tom Holland knocked it out of the park. Will I still enjoy the original movies? Sure, but I like the new ones so much more. This is, of course, just my personal opinion.
That's... not an equivalent example. What people are doing here, to take your Spider-Man example, is basically "Well, now that I see Tom Holland, I see that Toby Macguire's Spider-Man was poorly acted and unconvincing. He really wasn't very good at the time, was he?" (and it would be as terrible an argument as the outdated bowlegged Marine example). That's what people are saying when they say that the new mono-pose minis are great.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/09/02 23:59:03
Insectum7 wrote: Looked right enough to be GWs best selling models for three decades.
And Toby Macguire was an awesome Spiderman until Tom Holland knocked it out of the park. Will I still enjoy the original movies? Sure, but I like the new ones so much more. This is, of course, just my personal opinion.
Daedalus81 wrote: And Toby Macguire was an awesome Spiderman until Tom Holland knocked it out of the park. Will I still enjoy the original movies? Sure, but I like the new ones so much more. This is, of course, just my personal opinion.
That's... not an equivalent example. What people are doing here, to take your Spider-Man example, is basically "Well, now that I see Tom Holland, I see that Toby Macguire's Spider-Man was poorly acted and unconvincing. He really wasn't very good at the time, was he?" (and it would be as terrible an argument as the outdated bowlegged Marine example). That's what people are saying when they say that the new mono-pose minis are great.
Exactly this^
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 01:00:19
H.B.M.C. wrote: drbored - I figured you took the time to write a detailed post, so the least I could do is take the time to reply in kind.
drbored wrote: I've been wondering about this sort of thing. A lot of people tend to make arguments about GW's path, the models that are coming out, etc, within the vacuum of GW's product line. Where there may be improvements to fidelity of detail, they are made via sacrifices to 'poseability', but then you look at the poseability of old, and you had a lot of marines and models that looked like this:
Sure, it was slightly easier to put the plasma gun, melta gun, flamer, and pistols on whichever arm you wanted, but for the most part those things are still possible with a little bit of extra effort and careful clipping, minus a few options where the hands are molded around the grip, for example. The ability to rotate the torso 360 degrees was paired with the issue of the legs always looking like they were in a mid-squat pose, while with the newer models, certain special and heavy weapons can only fit on one or two bodies, and only fit on others with significantly more effort than before.
I wholeheartedly reject this argument as it does not match up to the reality of GW minis. Above I have three links to not-exactly-old kits - Deathwatch Veterans, Rubric Marines and Mk.III Marines. I chose recent Marines examples specifically as previous Tactical Squads and the Chaos Marines you included in your post above are most often cited for why "this is why mono-pose is better!". None of those kits are dumpy bow-legged Marines like those ancient Chaos Marines (much as I love that old kit! ).
GW is at the top of their game when it comes to plastic multi-part miniatures. I cannot speak to what plasic tech in Japan is like - so please don't quote a dozen random Gundum makers at me that maybe make GW look like children* - but from a mass-market Western wargame I don't think anyone matches them as far as variety, detail and expertise. It's no accident why they're the biggest fish in the small pond that is miniature wargaming, and why other companies could never reach their heights (Mantic), why some need pre-painted pre-built licensed products to get near (X-Wing, SW Legion) or why some almost got there but flew too close to the sun (Privateer Press).
*That's directed at the thread, not you specifically.
We know what they can produce. How often have we all gone "Well I already own 20 of those, so I doubt a new kit will make me rebuy th... oh my God I must have that!!!" when they show off just how much more detail a new kit has, new weapons, new heads and really just how farwe'vecome?
GW's recent crop of minis may have the detail, but they're losing their modularity. They're becoming harder to piece together. They're becoming more restrictive. None of these three things are positive and, more importantly, none of these things are necessary because we know they don't have to do it this way.
I don't know how many different ways I can restate that, and I don't understand why anyone could see this regression as a positive. If you think this trend really is a positive, then by all means, help me understand it.
drbored wrote: The other angle that I have been considering this is in the community as a whole. With regards to mental health, if you're surrounded by people that are constantly negative, bashing on the things that you like, or at worst even gaslighting or using other argument methods to shut you down, many mental health experts would call that a toxic environment. A toxic environment isn't conducive to the healthy growth of an individual, and is generally not where you would want to be, and yet the Warhammer community, on some sites, is exactly that. "Relentless positivity" is hammered down until those that like to look on the bright side simply don't speak up, while "relentless negativity" is praised and joined, upvoted and agreed with, whether or not it's warranted, and sometimes in the face of opposing facts.
I operate on a credit where credit's due mentality. It's why you'll always see me talking up GW customer service, as it's excellent. It's why you'll see me absolutely gushing over virtually any terrain product GW puts out. But that also means I'm not going to ignore things I consider to be bad, from rules, to GW's pricing policies, business practices, to increasing amounts of mono-pose minis.
I don't think we have a problem with hammering down 'relentless positivity', because what I find is that we don't often get that here. What we get are relentless excuse making. When something is good, we see people in any thread in N&R talking about it. And I think Dakka's nature as a 'toxic' is overblown. Better this than a site where the staff stamp down on any form of discussion that doesn't fit its incredibly narrow views (I've heard horror stories about Bolter & Chainsword...). As far as the opposite, 'relentless negativity', I've come across very few here who exude that with every aspect of every post they make.
drbored wrote: I wouldn't call anyone pointing these things out to be 'relentlessly negative', though in many of these instances it certainly feels like they're beating the same horse, and new routes of conversation might be more entertaining to have.
You know? I don't disagree with you on that. But at the same time, mono-pose minis is this thread's topic, so whilst the topic itself may have been done to death, it seems odd to criticise the discussion happening within the thread where it was set up to happen.
drbored wrote: However, there are just as many criticisms that are stated as fact, and when someone tries to present an opposing view, the community doesn't want to hear it. Take Kill Team, for example. The volatile upset of the vocal part of the community was astoundingly negative when it was revealed that the Compendium would be a separate book and would cost more than the previous editions' core book did. Is that crappy? Yeah, it's rough to have to shell another 60 USD to get what people perceive to be the same content as what previously came in a 40 dollar book. Sure, I agree, that's mighty crappy. As I said before, I'm not a fan of the printing of so many books. That said, the same exact thing happened with Warhammer 40k and the community praised the practice: 8th edition brought with it the Indexes, and in order to be able to play all the factions, you had to buy 4 separate indexes, knowing full well that they'd be replaced later.
I don't have the Compendium, and Kill Team itself holds little interest for me (certainly once they decided to forgo numbers in favour of shapes for some unknown reason... ), but I think that came down to people expecting their Kill-Teams to be useable in the new rules, and not to have all their options stripped away. Y'know, a bit like when a new kit comes out and it's all mono-pose.
drbored wrote: When you talk about "relentless positivity" like it's a bad thing, I have to wonder if you'd prefer this "relentless negativity" to continue. Is it truly healthy for the community as a whole? Valid criticism, maybe even some activism to keep the company on track, is certainly healthy, but in my mind the negative voices seem to be far louder than the positive ones.
I have a quote in my sig - "Everything is fine, nothing is broken!" that I keep there for a very specific reason. It was something an old boss of mine would say years ago when everything was going wrong. It was his self-deprecating way of letting everyone know that something was broken but he was working on fixing it. When the time came to do the vehicle rules for the Only War 40KRPG I couldn't help but include that as the quote at the start of the vehicle repair section, which is where that screenshot in my sig comes from.
As I said above, I don't feel we have a lot of "relentless positivity" at Dakka - certainly no more than relentless negativity - but rather relentless excuse making. Too many people here are willing to go "Everything is fine! Nothing is broken!" whilst things regress right before their eyes. That's not positivity. That's delusion.
When GW gets something right, we should celebrate it - the new Ork terrain is phenomenal, I really love the new 1KSons Codex, I think Crusade is fantastic (but would be better if my 'Nids had Crusade rules! ). The Indomitus box finally turned me around on Primaris Marines (dumb Cawl fluff notwithstanding). Blackstone Fortress and Cursed City are two of the coolest things GW has released in a long time. 8th (and 9th) made me excited to play 40k again. I quite often express the sheer joy I get out of terrain making, even with my own blog on the subject. I just want to play 40K and Necromunda and Warhammer Quest and BattleTech but I've been stuck in a perpetual lockdown since June and it's driving me fething insane!!!
*ahem*
Meanwhile, Al, a few posts above me: "Those aren't real conversions! Real conversions involve blah blah blah gatekeeping!"
And ---I'm--- the one being negative?
drbored wrote: Also, don't mistake "relentless positivity" for people that just want to enjoy the hobby they spent hundreds of dollars to get into. There are people that, despite the beliefs in some of these forums, actually LIKE the hobby for what it is, despite the drama, and don't need to be told that so many things suck.
Completely fair call, but I can't help but point out again that this is a thread about mono-pose minis, so coming in here not expecting to find opinions in the negative of such minis is a bit like going into a discussion about a new movie you haven't seen and getting annoyed that they "spoiled" it for you.
I'm not as savvy with the quote system so I'll just respond to a few points.
I DEFINITELY took the conversation off the rails, mostly because I had an ulterior motive when it came to creating this topic, which was to gauge certain emotions of the forum under the guise of a thought exercise. In my mind, certain complaints that are purely in the realm of opinion tend to, when people discuss them in comments, veer towards the negative, but as you can see from the poll above, there's generally a larger number of people that would continue to buy into the hobby as it is, and as it could be. I don't at all feel 'spoiled' about a certain range of opinions. In fact, I'm seeing a lot of what I'd expect.
My own brainspace has been a bit tumultuous. Dealing with negativity in my own local community has driven me away from that community, but not from the hobby. As I actively build and paint my models, I find myself enjoying the hobby, while I tend to not enjoy time spent talking about the hobby. Much more breath is spent complaining about a variety of issues, from 'what is monopose' to 'is this tolerable' to 'everything is awful all the time' than it is on conversation focused on the lighter side. There are of course a couple points to be made there alone.
A. People in general tend to find some catharsis complaining, whinging, and griping about issues in their lives and circles.
B. Progress on the Warhammer hobby is generally slow. In the span of a week, a hobbyist may make a little bit of progress on a squad, or play one or two games. In other words, conversations on the positive aspects of the hobby are simply fewer, and the void in between those conversations is filled with whatever topics may be at hand, which tends to be some form of GW drama. I more blame our need to consume social media to fill that void as the issue, but I'm sure it differs from person to person.
As to the "relentless excuse making" I think that's a matter of perspective when it comes to the nature of opinions. In regards to the mono-pose issue, there's certainly a challenge when some bodies within a model kit can't be easily equipped with certain special weapons. The Chaos Marine Missile Launcher is an example that pops to mind, since I built it recently. On some of the bodies, especially the running ones, but also some of the regular standing ones, the missile launcher arm simply... struggles to fit on many of the bodies, or looks quite awkward indeed. On one or two out of the 10 bodies, it works decently well, and out of maybe another one or two, you could shave some plastic away to make it work well enough, but it's still pretty clear that it's meant to fit in a certain way on those first two body options.
Someone who likes the kit regardless might say a variety of things, like "You don't need that many missile launchers anyway!" or "just get the Havoc set, and use some of those as missile launchers instead!" which misses the point of having options in the first kit completely. These excuses, I think, come from the same sort of emotion as someone trying to swat a fly away with their hand and missing. They send out excuses hoping that one of them will strike true and the opponents of the model kit will shut up with all of their "relentless negativity" and go away, or somehow change their mind and see the light (we all know that nobody changes their mind on the Internet).
Meanwhile, someone that doesn't like the kit for the aforementioned reasons will suggest "GW can do better!" or "The range of options is worst than other kits of the past and present!" But what I've found is that instead of pointing people to the source, many will often use highly aggressive and derisive language to describe the issue, with your choice of curse words or colorful language sprinkled in for flavor. This makes the person arguing for a better model kit seem simply grumpy and inconsolable, likely because they've dealt with too many of the excuse-makers and know that anything else would land on deaf ears. There's another issue, however. The issue is simply that, well, the model kit is out. By the time it's revealed by GW, there's little say that we have in what we get. The legitimate complaints that we may have about models that are coming out today may not actually go into effect in the cycle of design-and-release for another 3-5 years, and even then it's very unlikely that GW will remake a modern kit to appease complainers or those that want more options in their kit. Because of these things, complaints tend to pile up even though fans of a particular kit or faction are buying it up anyway.
In either situation, you've got opposing views that will never meet eye-to-eye unless opinions change (which they do, contrary to my previous statement. My own have changed several times over the course of my hobbying, as I've gone from my 20's into my 30's even here on this very forum. It tends to take a decent measure of self reflecting, life events, and various catalysts, like GW suggesting you can slap the old resin sonic blasters on new chaos marines to make Emperor's Children Noise Marines, instead of giving us a fething Noise Marine update, ffs).
The result: a forum where people argue, where those with one kind of opinion view the other side as toxic. A forum can choose the course it takes, as Bolter and Chainsword clearly wanted to foster a more pro-GW attitude, which, honestly, I appreciate. It's nice to have a place I know I can go to where I can read a thread and not have to deal with these arguments, especially when so many other places people are free to complain to their hearts content. Having different communities can be healthy for the Community as a whole, as people can find the cliques they fit in with and won't feel forced to stick with certain attitudes around them at all times.
When I was younger, I lived in a town with only one game store. If you wanted to play anything, from 40k to Magic the Gathering, you went to that game store. If you didn't like someone, you had to play nice, because there were simply no other options. Now, I live in a place with twelve game stores, and the ability to fit in with a certain group that matches your opinions/playstyles is a blessing. You're not stuck losing game after game with your narrative army against a group of competitive players, you can go find the other narrative players and have a better time. In my mind it's better to be able to find a place where you can fit in, so where someone might say that a forum like B&C is 'restricting of free speech', I see it as a save haven for people that just want to have fun with their miniatures that they spent hundreds of dollars on without being in a community that's more likely to give them feelings of buyer's remorse.
My personal hope, honestly, is not to change anyone's opinions about the validity of the current path of GW's model making or business decisions. I actually have much more fun trying to figure out the root cause of people's butting of heads, even when it's my own head being butted against. I have no great dreams of changing the community, but if I can figure out my own viewpoints through conversation, either personally or online, then I can better direct my energy into what's actually important to me. It was this sort of thing, butting of heads included, that got me to leave one community in my local area in favor of another. So, hopefully I'll just have a better time. I'd hope that more people try to do that, to improve their situation if it needs improving, and that includes considering why you get so much catharsis over complaining, or if your excuse-making is falling on deaf ears, or anywhere in between.
Love the fact everyone just ignored this. Too busy enjoying being negative and having a row to actual see what’s happening here.
2021/09/03 01:41:08
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
He was replying to me. It took him a long time to write his post, it took me a long time to write my reply, and it likely took him just as long to write another reply.
ERJAK wrote: Let's be real. The old marines never looked right. Bowlegged and with thighs out of an Anorexia clinic.
Sure were popular for something that "never looked right". Moreover, the "bowlegged" argument doesn't really hold water when you compare it to morerecentkits.
Get some new links, those ones are past spoiled.
For one thing, they're disingenuous selections for your general argument; you've deliberately selected "armoured head-to-toe" miniatures (ie. the style most forgiving of the anatomical butchery multi-pose kits can be guilty of). The picks are fine for a narrow discussion of Space Marines posture, but I'm pretty sure I've watched you drop them in response to the *general complaint* of bowleggedness (which has always included Orks, Eldar, and other humanoids that are not caked in shells of XXL plate).
They're sort of boring, too (not *ahem* dynaaaaamic in the least). But, worse than that, they're also... just... lame? bad? poses. Do you think those wooden, shuffling gaits are something that should be widely emulated? Every model that isn't standing stock still is instead laboriously staggering forward like it's 24 hours after leg day. They look like they're wading through a pond of mercury in Goku's 50x gravity chamber. The fact that you can look at those and think "These are good, these are impressive, these are faithful to the reality of warrior movement, I'm going to pick THEM to make my point" is very f---ing funny. They are completely fine, workmanlike sets that do not do anything special (and their positive characteristics aren't even applicable to non-armoured figs). Oh, and the 30K sergeant is still bowlegged, lmao.
2021/09/03 04:38:44
Subject: Re:If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
What does someone mean by bow-legged? Are they referring to the massive thigh gap between the legs that would make any supermodel jealous? The Deathwatch are the only ones in those pictures I would describe as bow-legged. The rest of them just have a wide stance and thin legs.
It does look bad, especially if you're to believe there's a thick chunk of armour between everything. It has nothing to do with them being monpose/multipose though. Most of GWs questionable anatomy is an artistic choice or poor scaling.
but yeah, the best poses for Space Marines are: aiming gun, readying gun, standing still, or lumbering forward. Maybe some grenade tossing if you want to get crazy. Leave the ballet dancing to the Space Elves.
Old World Prediction: The Empire will have stupid Clockwork Paragon Warsuits and Mecha Horses
2021/09/03 06:13:36
Subject: Re:If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Goose LeChance wrote: What does someone mean by bow-legged? Are they referring to the massive thigh gap between the legs that would make any supermodel jealous? The Deathwatch are the only ones in those pictures I would describe as bow-legged. The rest of them just have a wide stance and thin legs.
It does look bad, especially if you're to believe there's a thick chunk of armour between everything. It has nothing to do with them being monpose/multipose though. Most of GWs questionable anatomy is an artistic choice or poor scaling.
but yeah, the best poses for Space Marines are: aiming gun, readying gun, standing still, or lumbering forward. Maybe some grenade tossing if you want to get crazy. Leave the ballet dancing to the Space Elves.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
etc. This general pose where the legs tend to look mid-squat.
2021/09/03 06:35:42
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
H.B.M.C. wrote: drbored - I figured you took the time to write a detailed post, so the least I could do is take the time to reply in kind.
drbored wrote: I've been wondering about this sort of thing. A lot of people tend to make arguments about GW's path, the models that are coming out, etc, within the vacuum of GW's product line. Where there may be improvements to fidelity of detail, they are made via sacrifices to 'poseability', but then you look at the poseability of old, and you had a lot of marines and models that looked like this:
Sure, it was slightly easier to put the plasma gun, melta gun, flamer, and pistols on whichever arm you wanted, but for the most part those things are still possible with a little bit of extra effort and careful clipping, minus a few options where the hands are molded around the grip, for example. The ability to rotate the torso 360 degrees was paired with the issue of the legs always looking like they were in a mid-squat pose, while with the newer models, certain special and heavy weapons can only fit on one or two bodies, and only fit on others with significantly more effort than before.
I wholeheartedly reject this argument as it does not match up to the reality of GW minis. Above I have three links to not-exactly-old kits - Deathwatch Veterans, Rubric Marines and Mk.III Marines. I chose recent Marines examples specifically as previous Tactical Squads and the Chaos Marines you included in your post above are most often cited for why "this is why mono-pose is better!". None of those kits are dumpy bow-legged Marines like those ancient Chaos Marines (much as I love that old kit! ).
GW is at the top of their game when it comes to plastic multi-part miniatures. I cannot speak to what plasic tech in Japan is like - so please don't quote a dozen random Gundum makers at me that maybe make GW look like children* - but from a mass-market Western wargame I don't think anyone matches them as far as variety, detail and expertise. It's no accident why they're the biggest fish in the small pond that is miniature wargaming, and why other companies could never reach their heights (Mantic), why some need pre-painted pre-built licensed products to get near (X-Wing, SW Legion) or why some almost got there but flew too close to the sun (Privateer Press).
*That's directed at the thread, not you specifically.
We know what they can produce. How often have we all gone "Well I already own 20 of those, so I doubt a new kit will make me rebuy th... oh my God I must have that!!!" when they show off just how much more detail a new kit has, new weapons, new heads and really just how farwe'vecome?
GW's recent crop of minis may have the detail, but they're losing their modularity. They're becoming harder to piece together. They're becoming more restrictive. None of these three things are positive and, more importantly, none of these things are necessary because we know they don't have to do it this way.
I don't know how many different ways I can restate that, and I don't understand why anyone could see this regression as a positive. If you think this trend really is a positive, then by all means, help me understand it.
drbored wrote: The other angle that I have been considering this is in the community as a whole. With regards to mental health, if you're surrounded by people that are constantly negative, bashing on the things that you like, or at worst even gaslighting or using other argument methods to shut you down, many mental health experts would call that a toxic environment. A toxic environment isn't conducive to the healthy growth of an individual, and is generally not where you would want to be, and yet the Warhammer community, on some sites, is exactly that. "Relentless positivity" is hammered down until those that like to look on the bright side simply don't speak up, while "relentless negativity" is praised and joined, upvoted and agreed with, whether or not it's warranted, and sometimes in the face of opposing facts.
I operate on a credit where credit's due mentality. It's why you'll always see me talking up GW customer service, as it's excellent. It's why you'll see me absolutely gushing over virtually any terrain product GW puts out. But that also means I'm not going to ignore things I consider to be bad, from rules, to GW's pricing policies, business practices, to increasing amounts of mono-pose minis.
I don't think we have a problem with hammering down 'relentless positivity', because what I find is that we don't often get that here. What we get are relentless excuse making. When something is good, we see people in any thread in N&R talking about it. And I think Dakka's nature as a 'toxic' is overblown. Better this than a site where the staff stamp down on any form of discussion that doesn't fit its incredibly narrow views (I've heard horror stories about Bolter & Chainsword...). As far as the opposite, 'relentless negativity', I've come across very few here who exude that with every aspect of every post they make.
drbored wrote: I wouldn't call anyone pointing these things out to be 'relentlessly negative', though in many of these instances it certainly feels like they're beating the same horse, and new routes of conversation might be more entertaining to have.
You know? I don't disagree with you on that. But at the same time, mono-pose minis is this thread's topic, so whilst the topic itself may have been done to death, it seems odd to criticise the discussion happening within the thread where it was set up to happen.
drbored wrote: However, there are just as many criticisms that are stated as fact, and when someone tries to present an opposing view, the community doesn't want to hear it. Take Kill Team, for example. The volatile upset of the vocal part of the community was astoundingly negative when it was revealed that the Compendium would be a separate book and would cost more than the previous editions' core book did. Is that crappy? Yeah, it's rough to have to shell another 60 USD to get what people perceive to be the same content as what previously came in a 40 dollar book. Sure, I agree, that's mighty crappy. As I said before, I'm not a fan of the printing of so many books. That said, the same exact thing happened with Warhammer 40k and the community praised the practice: 8th edition brought with it the Indexes, and in order to be able to play all the factions, you had to buy 4 separate indexes, knowing full well that they'd be replaced later.
I don't have the Compendium, and Kill Team itself holds little interest for me (certainly once they decided to forgo numbers in favour of shapes for some unknown reason... ), but I think that came down to people expecting their Kill-Teams to be useable in the new rules, and not to have all their options stripped away. Y'know, a bit like when a new kit comes out and it's all mono-pose.
drbored wrote: When you talk about "relentless positivity" like it's a bad thing, I have to wonder if you'd prefer this "relentless negativity" to continue. Is it truly healthy for the community as a whole? Valid criticism, maybe even some activism to keep the company on track, is certainly healthy, but in my mind the negative voices seem to be far louder than the positive ones.
I have a quote in my sig - "Everything is fine, nothing is broken!" that I keep there for a very specific reason. It was something an old boss of mine would say years ago when everything was going wrong. It was his self-deprecating way of letting everyone know that something was broken but he was working on fixing it. When the time came to do the vehicle rules for the Only War 40KRPG I couldn't help but include that as the quote at the start of the vehicle repair section, which is where that screenshot in my sig comes from.
As I said above, I don't feel we have a lot of "relentless positivity" at Dakka - certainly no more than relentless negativity - but rather relentless excuse making. Too many people here are willing to go "Everything is fine! Nothing is broken!" whilst things regress right before their eyes. That's not positivity. That's delusion.
When GW gets something right, we should celebrate it - the new Ork terrain is phenomenal, I really love the new 1KSons Codex, I think Crusade is fantastic (but would be better if my 'Nids had Crusade rules! ). The Indomitus box finally turned me around on Primaris Marines (dumb Cawl fluff notwithstanding). Blackstone Fortress and Cursed City are two of the coolest things GW has released in a long time. 8th (and 9th) made me excited to play 40k again. I quite often express the sheer joy I get out of terrain making, even with my own blog on the subject. I just want to play 40K and Necromunda and Warhammer Quest and BattleTech but I've been stuck in a perpetual lockdown since June and it's driving me fething insane!!!
*ahem*
Meanwhile, Al, a few posts above me: "Those aren't real conversions! Real conversions involve blah blah blah gatekeeping!"
And ---I'm--- the one being negative?
drbored wrote: Also, don't mistake "relentless positivity" for people that just want to enjoy the hobby they spent hundreds of dollars to get into. There are people that, despite the beliefs in some of these forums, actually LIKE the hobby for what it is, despite the drama, and don't need to be told that so many things suck.
Completely fair call, but I can't help but point out again that this is a thread about mono-pose minis, so coming in here not expecting to find opinions in the negative of such minis is a bit like going into a discussion about a new movie you haven't seen and getting annoyed that they "spoiled" it for you.
I'm not as savvy with the quote system so I'll just respond to a few points.
I DEFINITELY took the conversation off the rails, mostly because I had an ulterior motive when it came to creating this topic, which was to gauge certain emotions of the forum under the guise of a thought exercise. In my mind, certain complaints that are purely in the realm of opinion tend to, when people discuss them in comments, veer towards the negative, but as you can see from the poll above, there's generally a larger number of people that would continue to buy into the hobby as it is, and as it could be. I don't at all feel 'spoiled' about a certain range of opinions. In fact, I'm seeing a lot of what I'd expect.
My own brainspace has been a bit tumultuous. Dealing with negativity in my own local community has driven me away from that community, but not from the hobby. As I actively build and paint my models, I find myself enjoying the hobby, while I tend to not enjoy time spent talking about the hobby. Much more breath is spent complaining about a variety of issues, from 'what is monopose' to 'is this tolerable' to 'everything is awful all the time' than it is on conversation focused on the lighter side. There are of course a couple points to be made there alone.
A. People in general tend to find some catharsis complaining, whinging, and griping about issues in their lives and circles.
B. Progress on the Warhammer hobby is generally slow. In the span of a week, a hobbyist may make a little bit of progress on a squad, or play one or two games. In other words, conversations on the positive aspects of the hobby are simply fewer, and the void in between those conversations is filled with whatever topics may be at hand, which tends to be some form of GW drama. I more blame our need to consume social media to fill that void as the issue, but I'm sure it differs from person to person.
As to the "relentless excuse making" I think that's a matter of perspective when it comes to the nature of opinions. In regards to the mono-pose issue, there's certainly a challenge when some bodies within a model kit can't be easily equipped with certain special weapons. The Chaos Marine Missile Launcher is an example that pops to mind, since I built it recently. On some of the bodies, especially the running ones, but also some of the regular standing ones, the missile launcher arm simply... struggles to fit on many of the bodies, or looks quite awkward indeed. On one or two out of the 10 bodies, it works decently well, and out of maybe another one or two, you could shave some plastic away to make it work well enough, but it's still pretty clear that it's meant to fit in a certain way on those first two body options.
Someone who likes the kit regardless might say a variety of things, like "You don't need that many missile launchers anyway!" or "just get the Havoc set, and use some of those as missile launchers instead!" which misses the point of having options in the first kit completely. These excuses, I think, come from the same sort of emotion as someone trying to swat a fly away with their hand and missing. They send out excuses hoping that one of them will strike true and the opponents of the model kit will shut up with all of their "relentless negativity" and go away, or somehow change their mind and see the light (we all know that nobody changes their mind on the Internet).
Meanwhile, someone that doesn't like the kit for the aforementioned reasons will suggest "GW can do better!" or "The range of options is worst than other kits of the past and present!" But what I've found is that instead of pointing people to the source, many will often use highly aggressive and derisive language to describe the issue, with your choice of curse words or colorful language sprinkled in for flavor. This makes the person arguing for a better model kit seem simply grumpy and inconsolable, likely because they've dealt with too many of the excuse-makers and know that anything else would land on deaf ears. There's another issue, however. The issue is simply that, well, the model kit is out. By the time it's revealed by GW, there's little say that we have in what we get. The legitimate complaints that we may have about models that are coming out today may not actually go into effect in the cycle of design-and-release for another 3-5 years, and even then it's very unlikely that GW will remake a modern kit to appease complainers or those that want more options in their kit. Because of these things, complaints tend to pile up even though fans of a particular kit or faction are buying it up anyway.
In either situation, you've got opposing views that will never meet eye-to-eye unless opinions change (which they do, contrary to my previous statement. My own have changed several times over the course of my hobbying, as I've gone from my 20's into my 30's even here on this very forum. It tends to take a decent measure of self reflecting, life events, and various catalysts, like GW suggesting you can slap the old resin sonic blasters on new chaos marines to make Emperor's Children Noise Marines, instead of giving us a fething Noise Marine update, ffs).
The result: a forum where people argue, where those with one kind of opinion view the other side as toxic. A forum can choose the course it takes, as Bolter and Chainsword clearly wanted to foster a more pro-GW attitude, which, honestly, I appreciate. It's nice to have a place I know I can go to where I can read a thread and not have to deal with these arguments, especially when so many other places people are free to complain to their hearts content. Having different communities can be healthy for the Community as a whole, as people can find the cliques they fit in with and won't feel forced to stick with certain attitudes around them at all times.
When I was younger, I lived in a town with only one game store. If you wanted to play anything, from 40k to Magic the Gathering, you went to that game store. If you didn't like someone, you had to play nice, because there were simply no other options. Now, I live in a place with twelve game stores, and the ability to fit in with a certain group that matches your opinions/playstyles is a blessing. You're not stuck losing game after game with your narrative army against a group of competitive players, you can go find the other narrative players and have a better time. In my mind it's better to be able to find a place where you can fit in, so where someone might say that a forum like B&C is 'restricting of free speech', I see it as a save haven for people that just want to have fun with their miniatures that they spent hundreds of dollars on without being in a community that's more likely to give them feelings of buyer's remorse.
My personal hope, honestly, is not to change anyone's opinions about the validity of the current path of GW's model making or business decisions. I actually have much more fun trying to figure out the root cause of people's butting of heads, even when it's my own head being butted against. I have no great dreams of changing the community, but if I can figure out my own viewpoints through conversation, either personally or online, then I can better direct my energy into what's actually important to me. It was this sort of thing, butting of heads included, that got me to leave one community in my local area in favor of another. So, hopefully I'll just have a better time. I'd hope that more people try to do that, to improve their situation if it needs improving, and that includes considering why you get so much catharsis over complaining, or if your excuse-making is falling on deaf ears, or anywhere in between.
Love the fact everyone just ignored this. Too busy enjoying being negative and having a row to actual see what’s happening here.
Its certainly a quite esoteric post to comment on. Perhaps the poster has been far to subtle and sofisticated. Perhaps people frame their own "negativity" in a different manner. Certainly commenting on mono-pose (another corporate imposition over the "warhammer hobby") is something quite legit since its an issue full of nuance.
2021/09/03 07:04:33
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
From my perspective any advice that goes in to the wait till your 30 perspective, should be reviewed by people in their 30s, as if someone else told them, just wait till you are 60, and then it will be good.
Looking at the past is a important thing. And it is good if things end up good for you. But I think over all, the quality of the progression through anything matters much. It is one thing for the road to be tough, but at the end you get a good job, a scholarship or something similar. It is different thing to spend a few years doing something, and then quiting, because this means you just litterally wasted time and money on something that ended bad.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2021/09/03 08:02:17
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
yukishiro1 wrote: The 2019 Chaos Knights I am currently assembling are probably the worst GW plastic kit I have ever worked with. This thing is just atrocious - every single knight is cut up differently from every other one, in completely bizarre and non-intuitive ways that make the idea of painting in assemblies virtually impossible, so you have to just stick them together and content yourself with the hard to reach bits not getting done well. And don't even think about trying to repose them.
And despite all that...the kit doesn't even go together well, either. I've had to use more green stuff on this than on any other plastic kit I've ever put together according to the basic instructions, bar none. Nothing fits together right - it's almost like chopping figures up into absolutely bizarre bits doesn't work very well when trying to fit them back together.
I've never assembled any of the GW Knights but you may find that they actually go together perfectly...but only if you locate the tiny, tiny tabs that align the pieces properly. If you don't do that nothing fits right. This has been my problem with a lot of the monopose kits, especially characters. The new CADtastic sprues are often designed as some kind of torture device with pieces designed to fit into increasingly bizarre locations. The last 3 kits I've assembled have been the Flayed Ones, some Lychguard and Szeras. The Lychguard are an older kit and they have some issues. There are too many heavy pieces supported by a relatively small ball-and-socket joint and trying to assemble them with warscythes requires at least 3 hands to get everything lined up. The other 2 kits are the new style. They're worse. It took me about an hour to assemble 10 Lychguard, working in stages and sub-assemblies. Flayed Ones took about 75 minutes for half the number of models, not including the break I had to take halfway through for the sake of my sanity. Szeras isn't actually a model you assemble, it's a trial you endure.
It doesn't have to be like this. Most of the Primaris units are fine. You need to use the matching body/leg sections but they go together very easily and fit well. The arms are often interchangeable, though sometimes there's a small amount of extra work needed there. I do wonder if the cutting up of the models onto sprues and creation of assembly instructions is done almost purely by an automated process now, leading to some annoying conventions that make model assembly so much harder than it needs to be. That used to be done by a skilled machinist who could take ease of assembly into account during the process.
2021/09/03 08:14:36
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Quite a few of the older plastic kits, despite being very customisable in theory, aren't really in practice; even with ball and socket style limbs/torsos you still invariably end up locked into assembling them into the same three or four basic pose
VAIROSEAN LIVES!
2021/09/03 08:22:53
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
H.B.M.C. wrote: He was replying to me. It took him a long time to write his post, it took me a long time to write my reply, and it likely took him just as long to write another reply.
I'm at work.
It was more a comment about the posts that all followed it, big thoughtful comment on the discussion and attitudes in general in the hobby…..ignore it and continue bickering.
Basically this whole thread is one side trying to convince the other that there opinion is fact. I know that’s the majority of the forum but this thread is specifically about aesthetics and personal taste. There is no right or wrong. I PREFER the newer style models but liked elements form the others. I think the new ORK boyz are too far away from easy modification, but think the primaris marine line has it pretty much bang on. I can do exactly what I could with the old ones with the new ones (it’s with in my skill set to do that level of converting). With the ORK boyz my green stuff skills aren’t up to doing much with them. The is what suits me! Not everyone.
2021/09/03 08:42:48
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
yukishiro1 wrote: The Lychguard are an older kit and they have some issues. There are too many heavy pieces supported by a relatively small ball-and-socket joint and trying to assemble them with warscythes requires at least 3 hands to get everything lined up.
I have a love/hate relationship with the lychguard kit. It's amazing posable by my god those wrist joints.
2021/09/03 08:48:38
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Even if it cut the cost by 50%, you'd see exactly 0% price cut. Why would they, when that's 50% more profit per box? It's not how capitalism works.
Evidence suggests the prices only go up anyway, regardless of cost cutting measures.
Definitely, they did this with Finecast.
At the time resin was a lot cheaper than metal, still bumped up prices despite the resulting sculpts being a lot worse.
2021/09/03 10:19:17
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
It was more a comment about the posts that all followed it, big thoughtful comment on the discussion and attitudes in general in the hobby…..ignore it and continue bickering.
Basically this whole thread is one side trying to convince the other that there opinion is fact. I know that’s the majority of the forum but this thread is specifically about aesthetics and personal taste. There is no right or wrong. I PREFER the newer style models but liked elements form the others. I think the new ORK boyz are too far away from easy modification, but think the primaris marine line has it pretty much bang on. I can do exactly what I could with the old ones with the new ones (it’s with in my skill set to do that level of converting). With the ORK boyz my green stuff skills aren’t up to doing much with them. The is what suits me! Not everyone.
People are perfectly free to like or dislike whatever they want. However, what I have an issue with is generated grievances and distortion of the truth. And this is what is very much going on with this 'monopose' debacle. Some people hate the primaris marines, and that's their right; but now they're just inventing reasons for hating them and as a process distorting the meaning of actually useful terms. Before the primaris no one though that the Skitarii or GSC cultists were monopose or complained that they lacked customisation potential. But when the primaris models started to use similar construction method, this was suddenly an anathema. And calling models that by no reasonable definition are monopose 'monopose' is just confusing. GW actually currently produces monopose and multipose version of many units, so these labels are useful for communicating what you're talking about.
If every kit from now on was like the Space Marine Intercessors, or the Chaos Space Marines, or the Battle Sisters from the Sisters of Battle, or the Plague Marines, would you still buy the product?
These kits, due to certain arms not fitting certain bodies, certain weapon options not fitting certain torsos, and the torso and leg options generally being one, immovable piece, are considered "monopose" on top of other things like ETB kits, or kits with near zero options like various things from Blackstone Fortress (guard, cultists, etc).
I mean, if we're just going to start making up definitions of words, I could just as well argue that any kit Citadel has ever made in its history is "monopose" on the grounds that the pieces of ALL kits aren't infinitely interchangeable and there are some parts that don't bend at the elbow etc etc. Some people have absolutely completely rotted their brains in their determination to find something to criticise GW over at every possible turn.
It was more a comment about the posts that all followed it, big thoughtful comment on the discussion and attitudes in general in the hobby…..ignore it and continue bickering.
Basically this whole thread is one side trying to convince the other that there opinion is fact. I know that’s the majority of the forum but this thread is specifically about aesthetics and personal taste. There is no right or wrong. I PREFER the newer style models but liked elements form the others. I think the new ORK boyz are too far away from easy modification, but think the primaris marine line has it pretty much bang on. I can do exactly what I could with the old ones with the new ones (it’s with in my skill set to do that level of converting). With the ORK boyz my green stuff skills aren’t up to doing much with them. The is what suits me! Not everyone.
People are perfectly free to like or dislike whatever they want. However, what I have an issue with is generated grievances and distortion of the truth. And this is what is very much going on with this 'monopose' debacle. Some people hate the primaris marines, and that's their right; but now they're just inventing reasons for hating them and as a process distorting the meaning of actually useful terms. Before the primaris no one though that the Skitarii or GSC cultists were monopose or complained that they lacked customisation potential. But when the primaris models started to use similar construction method, this was suddenly an anathema. And calling models that by no reasonable definition are monopose 'monopose' is just confusing. GW actually currently produces monopose and multipose version of many units, so these labels are useful for communicating what you're talking about.
Yepppp. I'm not a big fan of the Primaris Marines from an aesthetic/fluff perspective, but the kits are absolutely FINE and more than capable of creating just as varied units as the, say, the old Tactical Marines kit. Only difference is you can't make them look like total gak by assembling them with their waists rotated at an impossible angle.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 11:11:32
2021/09/03 11:22:25
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Well in the end the lack of common language and the lack of interest in finding common definitions makes most arguments moot.
Although I think we could agree that if in order to give a unit a new weapon you need to do some heavy converting or a specific weapon fits only one type of body per box, then the if not monopose, the models are at least very limited in what can be done with them. While the older kits you can put, to use the example from this thread, the heavy weapon on any of the 10 bodies in the old box.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2021/09/03 11:29:45
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Even if it cut the cost by 50%, you'd see exactly 0% price cut. Why would they, when that's 50% more profit per box? It's not how capitalism works.
No, it works by people refusing to pay inflated prices to get prices dropped. The problem is that there are whales that will never do that currently.
And since people never refuse to pay inflated prices, they have no incentive to pass any savings to the customer, ergo capitalism works as described in practice.
2021/09/03 11:33:28
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Only the same thing happens under other systems, so it can be a this -isms specific problem.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2021/09/03 12:03:20
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Even if it cut the cost by 50%, you'd see exactly 0% price cut. Why would they, when that's 50% more profit per box? It's not how capitalism works.
Evidence suggests the prices only go up anyway, regardless of cost cutting measures.
Definitely, they did this with Finecast.
At the time resin was a lot cheaper than metal, still bumped up prices despite the resulting sculpts being a lot worse.
Like to note another thing about Finecast, though: Nobody bought the hype. It was universally despised. New kits designed for finecast stopped happening, and they stopped happening QUICK. Replacing a finecast model with plastic requires a complete re-cadding and new molds, so that happens slowly, but Finecast is the opposite of an effective argument if what you're going for is "all warhammer consumers are stupid apes who will pay anything and GW can get away with anything with them."
No company, ever, is going to shuffle out and do a press conference to announce "our new product is a failure, sorry folks, wont happen again." they'll stop promoting it, they'll get real quiet about it, and they'll either kill it when nobody's looking or start to phase it out without ever announcing the fact that they're doing that. Companies do not play defense.
Finecast, the brand name, disappeared RIGHT quick. You notice they're just described as 'resin miniatures' now? After the very first handful of new, intended for finecast releases, those were done. All plastic, only plastic, except for those kits where the answer was 'finecast or get rid of them.'
Backlash and refusing to buy objectively works with GW. The only thing is, a handful of boomers on a twice-outdated forum mode of communication most of whom bought a single box of tactical marines in 1937 and think that entitles them to complain endlessly about kids these days and their stratagems and their primaris inferencers aren't actually a platform that represents a real slice of the GW purchasing demographic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 12:04:48
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/09/03 12:19:22
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
I did not collect any GW through the finecast era and when I got my hands on one of those models recently I was absolutely floored by how egregiously terrible the material was. For those that were closer to the logic at the time, what was GW's reasoning? Cutting costs? Did they pass the cost-savings onto customers as well? I did note that the pyrovore I picked up seemed cheaper than other GW products. But the sculpt and detail are shockingly terrible coming from the "world's premier model company".
2021/09/03 12:22:28
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
harlokin wrote: Quite a few of the older plastic kits, despite being very customisable in theory, aren't really in practice; even with ball and socket style limbs/torsos you still invariably end up locked into assembling them into the same three or four basic pose
True, and this is another thing people generally don't acknowledge. In reality though, it is quite possible to take even a single kit and like some elements while disliking others.
To use the most recent example, i bought new kill team and had a variety of reactions to Kommandos:
1) I HATE, like REALLY REALLY HATE the new head and arm join scheme because i really cannot fathom a reason for its existence beyond being a 'sorry, no headphone jack on your new iphone' feature.
For those that aren't in the know, the new kommandos are put together in much the same way as older ork kits with joins at the shoulder and joins at the neck, EXACTLY in the same spot, but while existing ork kit joins are always flat at the shoulder and round at the neck, the new kommandos are flat and sculpted at the neck and squared at the shoulder.
The only function of this decision was to prevent interkit compatibility with existing ork kits or at least make it more difficult.
2) I really like the way having a few 'intended' poses allows for drastically different individual model poses than you got to have before. Before all orks had to either be standing or bow-leggedly waddling forward, but in this kit because there are two 'intended' poses you can have a torso that's bending down, either under a heavy weapon or creeping forward, and various other base poses that allow you to have more variety without looking so out of place you'd immediately recognize a duplicate.
3) the intrakit customization is actually pretty solid for a 10-man kit. It will be tricky to try and make the various special dudes look distinct, particularly you'd probably have to clip off the bit of 'flame' from the burna if you wanted to have two distinct burna boyz and the big shoota boy is also going to look similar either way. The Comms Boy is the most distinctive here, but tbf he's not anything in 40k and unique in kill team so just...only make him once I guess.
But the various choppas, sluggas, heads, backpacks and assorted bits of extra kit they provide you are such that I think it'd actually be pretty trivial to take this kit, combine with a very minor amount of extra bits, and make 30 completely distinct kommandos. Honestly I think it'd be way easier to do than 30 distinct ork boyz out of the current boyz kit. The nob would probably be the biggest challenge.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2021/09/03 12:23:08
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Finecast is a big reason why Eldar have been seen less these days. Aspect Warriors are only (apart from Banshees) availabe in Finecast.
The details was nice on them, if they weren't riddled with holes. So I stopped at my 2nd box.
The new 'intended poses' are very nice, for an army's look. The flat arm joins (where used) just allow for so much variation from there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 12:25:17
Like to note another thing about Finecast, though: Nobody bought the hype. It was universally despised. New kits designed for finecast stopped happening, and they stopped happening QUICK. Replacing a finecast model with plastic requires a complete re-cadding and new molds, so that happens slowly, but Finecast is the opposite of an effective argument if what you're going for is "all warhammer consumers are stupid apes who will pay anything and GW can get away with anything with them."
And yet neither were the prices lowered nor was the product removed/reverted to previous version. People still buy it, if there is no 3rd party alternative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 12:31:26
2021/09/03 12:35:51
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Karol wrote: Well in the end the lack of common language and the lack of interest in finding common definitions makes most arguments moot.
Yeah this. No matter whether a model - lacks extra bits to customize it - can be build in only one way - has legs and torso connected - has arms/heads that cannot be freely posed - has arms/heads that aren't interchangeable with other models from the same set - is cut in a weird way - is push-fit - has dynamic poses someone will screech "mONo-PosE!".
Thus, it's completely pointless to discuss this topic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/03 12:36:28
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
).
), but I think that came down to people expecting their Kill-Teams to be useable in the new rules, and not to have all their options stripped away. Y'know, a bit like when a new kit comes out and it's all mono-pose. 
). The Indomitus box finally turned me around on Primaris Marines (dumb Cawl fluff notwithstanding). Blackstone Fortress and Cursed City are two of the coolest things 
6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 
4000 pts - 
1000 pts 