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2021/09/03 20:12:16
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Galas wrote: I have to say, I always loved space marines and never felt anything was wrong with them.
The moment I saw primaris, everything change and I cannot look back at marines without looking at their legs. Like, everything else is fine. If GW released a "longer leg" upgrade sprue for all the firstborn marines I would be in love. Just a sprue with 10 pair of longer legs to use in normal firstborn squads.
What's funny about this is that proportionally speaking, it's the torso that needs to be elongated to be in more proper proportion.
Galas wrote: The Havoc kit is just a bad kit. His bitz and sprue density looks like something from 12-15 years ago.
One chaincannon. That's all I'm going to say. One. . CHAINCANNON.
That was appalling, absolutely. Somehow the SM Devastator kit manages to have two each of an even greater array of weapons.
Right. Twelve heavy weapons. Twelve. And a combi-weapon with a full complement of appropriate bits, storm bolter, and bolter for the Sargeant, along with, what? 4, 5 melee weapons? The Havoc Aspiring Champion doesn't even get a basic bolter, much less a combi-weapon. Neither does the Aspiring Champion in the CSM kit have a combi-weapon option, despite it being an option in the rules. Plus Devastators come with all of that other stuff, servo skulls and such. And the Chaos Terminators are worse. Typical gw treatment for anything CSM.
yukishiro1 wrote:I mean, we know how this works: GW is upfront that the miniatures come first, rules come second. They just design something cool, with little to no consideration for how it's going to play on the tabletop, then the team has to come up with rules for it. It's not really any surprise we end up with stuff like the Havocs where the miniatures in the kit don't translate into a playable tabletop unit without buying multiple copies of the kit.
It's an absolutely insane way to run a game.
That doesn't explain the limited number of guns in the kit. They made those cool new guns, but only included one? They knew people would want more than that.
2021/09/03 20:27:30
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
I like the old marines more than the primaris version, myself, and I wish they'd not have created a rupture in the design by making the primaris ones different (ok, I wish they'd never made primaris in the first place, but that's a different rant). It's a miniatures game, I like the stylized look of the original marines more than the "more accurate tacticool" vibe of the primaris. I'm playing toy soldiers, not trying to accurately scale down "real" 7 foot tall humans in massive battle armor.
yukishiro1 wrote:I mean, we know how this works: GW is upfront that the miniatures come first, rules come second. They just design something cool, with little to no consideration for how it's going to play on the tabletop, then the team has to come up with rules for it. It's not really any surprise we end up with stuff like the Havocs where the miniatures in the kit don't translate into a playable tabletop unit without buying multiple copies of the kit.
It's an absolutely insane way to run a game.
That doesn't explain the limited number of guns in the kit. They made those cool new guns, but only included one? They knew people would want more than that.
I think it sorta does explain it. They created some cool models with a variety of weapons. They wanted you to have one of each in a squad, because that's cool! It just doesn't work in the actual game.
It's an extreme example of how divorced the model design is from the way the game actually works. Yes, anyone who knew how 40k worked would have said "we should include multiples of each weapon in this kit, because in the game, you never want to take split loadouts." But that's not how the process works. Nobody is there to say that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 20:30:18
2021/09/03 20:38:05
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
yukishiro1 wrote:I mean, we know how this works: GW is upfront that the miniatures come first, rules come second. They just design something cool, with little to no consideration for how it's going to play on the tabletop, then the team has to come up with rules for it. It's not really any surprise we end up with stuff like the Havocs where the miniatures in the kit don't translate into a playable tabletop unit without buying multiple copies of the kit.
It's an absolutely insane way to run a game.
That doesn't explain the limited number of guns in the kit. They made those cool new guns, but only included one? They knew people would want more than that.
I think it sorta does explain it. They created some cool models with a variety of weapons. They wanted you to have one of each in a squad, because that's cool! It just doesn't work in the actual game.
It's an extreme example of how divorced the model design is from the way the game actually works. Yes, anyone who knew how 40k worked would have said "we should include multiples of each weapon in this kit, because in the game, you never want to take split loadouts." But that's not how the process works. Nobody is there to say that.
No it doesn't, because they didn't include one of every gun. They included two of everything except the new gun that no one already had. It was a blatant attempt to sell more kits.
2021/09/03 20:48:37
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
You would have had to buy multiple kits either way to get a usable loadout, though. It's not like taking 2 reaper chaincannons in a unit of 5 is much more viable than 1. They would have needed to include 4 if they were actually making a usable kit in game. And GW never does that.
I mean I don't want to fight over why they included 1 instead of 2. The overall point is that the reason you get these kits that don't make any sense for the way the game is played is because they are designed by people who don't consider how the game is played when making the kits.
2021/09/03 20:49:41
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
yukishiro1 wrote:I mean, we know how this works: GW is upfront that the miniatures come first, rules come second. They just design something cool, with little to no consideration for how it's going to play on the tabletop, then the team has to come up with rules for it. It's not really any surprise we end up with stuff like the Havocs where the miniatures in the kit don't translate into a playable tabletop unit without buying multiple copies of the kit.
It's an absolutely insane way to run a game.
That doesn't explain the limited number of guns in the kit. They made those cool new guns, but only included one? They knew people would want more than that.
[spoiler]
I think it sorta does explain it. They created some cool models with a variety of weapons. They wanted you to have one of each in a squad, because that's cool! It just doesn't work in the actual game.
It's an extreme example of how divorced the model design is from the way the game actually works. Yes, anyone who knew how 40k worked would have said "we should include multiples of each weapon in this kit, because in the game, you never want to take split loadouts." But that's not how the process works. Nobody is there to say that.
No it doesn't, because they didn't include one of every gun. They included two of everything except the new gun that no one already had. It was a blatant attempt to sell more kits.
'Oh no. Looks like there isn't space to fit a multi-melta on the Battle Sisters sprue. Guess you'll just have to buy some Retributors who are twice the price per model...'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 21:21:16
2021/09/03 21:29:05
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Galas wrote: The Havoc kit is just a bad kit. His bitz and sprue density looks like something from 12-15 years ago.
One chaincannon. That's all I'm going to say. One. . CHAINCANNON.
That was appalling, absolutely. Somehow the SM Devastator kit manages to have two each of an even greater array of weapons.
Right. Twelve heavy weapons. Twelve. And a combi-weapon with a full complement of appropriate bits, storm bolter, and bolter for the Sargeant, along with, what? 4, 5 melee weapons? The Havoc Aspiring Champion doesn't even get a basic bolter, much less a combi-weapon. Neither does the Aspiring Champion in the CSM kit have a combi-weapon option, despite it being an option in the rules. Plus Devastators come with all of that other stuff, servo skulls and such. And the Chaos Terminators are worse. Typical gw treatment for anything CSM.
yukishiro1 wrote:I mean, we know how this works: GW is upfront that the miniatures come first, rules come second. They just design something cool, with little to no consideration for how it's going to play on the tabletop, then the team has to come up with rules for it. It's not really any surprise we end up with stuff like the Havocs where the miniatures in the kit don't translate into a playable tabletop unit without buying multiple copies of the kit.
It's an absolutely insane way to run a game.
That doesn't explain the limited number of guns in the kit. They made those cool new guns, but only included one? They knew people would want more than that.
Fun fact, they have no idea.
Gundstock Thunderers in AoS had 5-6 different weapon options, but only the most basic rifle had enough for the whole squad. Every other option was 1 per box, despite being able to take however many of the same gun you wanted per unit. So in order to equip an entire squad with ANY weapon (other than the basic rifle) you need 5 boxes PER SQUAD. The unit was OP as balls so a bunch of people went out and bought 10-15 boxes of them to get the good special.
Thing was, it came out that GW didn't think people would actually run every single gun the same. They assumed people would mix and match the guns or take a special and rifles. This sort of thought process can be seen from the casual AoS community as well via an episode of Signal from the Frontline that came out when the battletome did that had their locally Narrative guy on as a guest. As they were reviewing the battletome, the 'buying 10 boxes' thing came up and narrative guy said 'well, obviously no one's going to
actually run the unit like that.' and Reece and Frankie side-eyed him like 'Bro...that's the ONLY way anyone is going to run that unit!'
GW saw what everybody was doing and rewrote the warscroll so that you could only take 1 of each special. It was completely useless as a unit from that point until the new book.
TLDRGW doesn't know that people want to use their cool guns.
2021/09/03 21:32:39
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
yukishiro1 wrote: You would have had to buy multiple kits either way to get a usable loadout, though. It's not like taking 2 reaper chaincannons in a unit of 5 is much more viable than 1. They would have needed to include 4 if they were actually making a usable kit in game. And GW never does that.
I mean I don't want to fight over why they included 1 instead of 2. The overall point is that the reason you get these kits that don't make any sense for the way the game is played is because they are designed by people who don't consider how the game is played when making the kits.
Two kits is half the $$$ of four. And having twice the number of chaincannons in the kit would have helped kept the price of them down on the bits market. There's no reason, other than a blatant cash grab, that the Havoc kit only includes one of the only gun that was new. Especially considering the example of Devastators, which manages to include two of six types of heavy weapons, while Havocs only have five options. Gw knew which gun people were going to want.
2021/09/03 21:37:08
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
I honestly think you're giving GW too much credit in assuming they knew what they were doing to that extent. When choosing to ascribe what GW does to either nefariousness or incompetence, the latter is almost always the more plausible.
I mean maybe they really did include only 1 as a cash grab. On this one kit. But not others. Because they really, really thought that getting people to buy multiple boxes of Havocs was the way to make the big bucks. But I kinda doubt it.
2021/09/03 21:39:49
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Galas wrote: The Havoc kit is just a bad kit. His bitz and sprue density looks like something from 12-15 years ago.
One chaincannon. That's all I'm going to say. One. . CHAINCANNON.
That was appalling, absolutely. Somehow the SM Devastator kit manages to have two each of an even greater array of weapons.
Right. Twelve heavy weapons. Twelve. And a combi-weapon with a full complement of appropriate bits, storm bolter, and bolter for the Sargeant, along with, what? 4, 5 melee weapons? The Havoc Aspiring Champion doesn't even get a basic bolter, much less a combi-weapon. Neither does the Aspiring Champion in the CSM kit have a combi-weapon option, despite it being an option in the rules. Plus Devastators come with all of that other stuff, servo skulls and such. And the Chaos Terminators are worse. Typical gw treatment for anything CSM.
yukishiro1 wrote:I mean, we know how this works: GW is upfront that the miniatures come first, rules come second. They just design something cool, with little to no consideration for how it's going to play on the tabletop, then the team has to come up with rules for it. It's not really any surprise we end up with stuff like the Havocs where the miniatures in the kit don't translate into a playable tabletop unit without buying multiple copies of the kit.
It's an absolutely insane way to run a game.
That doesn't explain the limited number of guns in the kit. They made those cool new guns, but only included one? They knew people would want more than that.
Fun fact, they have no idea.
Gundstock Thunderers in AoS had 5-6 different weapon options, but only the most basic rifle had enough for the whole squad. Every other option was 1 per box, despite being able to take however many of the same gun you wanted per unit. So in order to equip an entire squad with ANY weapon (other than the basic rifle) you need 5 boxes PER SQUAD. The unit was OP as balls so a bunch of people went out and bought 10-15 boxes of them to get the good special.
Thing was, it came out that GW didn't think people would actually run every single gun the same. They assumed people would mix and match the guns or take a special and rifles. This sort of thought process can be seen from the casual AoS community as well via an episode of Signal from the Frontline that came out when the battletome did that had their locally Narrative guy on as a guest. As they were reviewing the battletome, the 'buying 10 boxes' thing came up and narrative guy said 'well, obviously no one's going to
actually run the unit like that.' and Reece and Frankie side-eyed him like 'Bro...that's the ONLY way anyone is going to run that unit!'
GW saw what everybody was doing and rewrote the warscroll so that you could only take 1 of each special. It was completely useless as a unit from that point until the new book.
TLDRGW doesn't know that people want to use their cool guns.
So, gw makes a new Havoc kit, with four types of guns they've been able to use for years, and therefore most established CSM players already have, and one new one that nobody has. And they don’t know that the new one is going to be the one everyone wants. Right. I can buy that for the Thunderers, because I assume they were a completely new unit. But Havocs have existed for ages, and only one of those guns was something new. And it was the only one limited to one per kit. That isn't a mistake or a coincidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: I honestly think you're giving GW too much credit in assuming they knew what they were doing to that extent. When choosing to ascribe what GW does to either nefariousness or incompetence, the latter is almost always the more plausible.
I mean maybe they really did include only 1 as a cash grab. On this one kit. But not others. Because they really, really thought that getting people to buy multiple boxes of Havocs was the way to make the big bucks. But I kinda doubt it.
Well, I've never assumed that they were corporate geniuses, but if they couldn't figure out that everyone was going to want the cool new mini-gun, then they're even goofier than I previously thought.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 21:47:13
2021/09/03 21:57:54
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
'Oh no. Looks like there isn't space to fit a multi-melta on the Battle Sisters sprue. Guess you'll just have to buy some Retributors who are twice the price per model...'
I had to look to see if that was true. Oh nooooo . . . . Also I get a "No longer available online" for Retributors.
I mean tactical squads also only come with a missile launcher. And is not like when released, multimeltas were OP or anything for the new sisters until 9th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 22:43:29
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2021/09/03 23:19:27
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Galas wrote: I mean tactical squads also only come with a missile launcher. And is not like when released, multimeltas were OP or anything for the new sisters until 9th.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the total array of gear choices in the Tactical kit outstrip those in the Sisters kit.
And as pointed out previously, the Devastator kit has 12(!!!) Heavy Weapons in it, compared the the Retributors 6(?) 2 HBs, 2, H-Flamers and 2 Multimeltas ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 23:21:56
Galas wrote: I mean tactical squads also only come with a missile launcher. And is not like when released, multimeltas were OP or anything for the new sisters until 9th.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the total array of gear choices in the Tactical kit outstrip those in the Sisters kit.
While I'm not disagreeing with the Devastator issue, I should say on the Sisters case, they do actually have more options/wargear than the Tacticals do.
Tacs have a single missile, flamer, plasma, melta, and grav-gun, Sisters have a single heavy bolter and heavy flamer, and then two storm bolters, two flamers, and two meltaguns. As for Sergeants/Superiors, the Tactical Sergeant has one more melee weapon option (a power fist), but the Sister Superior has multiple chainswords and multiple power swords. They both have the same amount of combi-weapon options, but the Tactical Sergeant has access to the plasma pistol and grav-pistol.
They/them
2021/09/03 23:34:52
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
Insectum7 wrote: Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the total array of gear choices in the Tactical kit outstrip those in the Sisters kit.
You're wrong. the basic SoB box has two different heavy weapons, two of each special weapons, some combi weapons, different pistols and melee weapons and an option to build an icon bearer and a cherub.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: but the Tactical Sergeant has access to the plasma pistol and grav-pistol.
Actually the SoB kit has a plasma pistol too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/03 23:36:53
Insectum7 wrote: Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say the total array of gear choices in the Tactical kit outstrip those in the Sisters kit.
You're wrong. the basic SoB box has two different heavy weapons, two of each special weapons, some combi weapons, different pistols and melee weapons and an option to build an icon bearer and a cherub.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: but the Tactical Sergeant has access to the plasma pistol and grav-pistol.
Actually the SoB kit has a plasma pistol too.
Ah, you are correct! That must have slipped my mind!
They/them
2021/09/03 23:50:45
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
That Devastator kit still blows the Retributors out of the water though.
Both kits have two of each type of weapon they can use. Marines just happen to have more options.
On the surface, sure. The key bit is that combining the two kits Marines come out way ahead in terms of capabilities. Sisters struggle for AT weapons on infantry when Marines have Heavy Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Grav Cannons and (sorta) Missile Launchers for the same task, making it much easier to spread AT threats around, while Sisters are starved for Multimeltas, their single AT option.
Edit: Another way to look at it is if Retributors had put 12 Heavy weapons on the sprue, that would be enough to outfit the squad with it's full complement of each weapon choice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/04 01:53:40
Galas wrote: The Havoc kit is just a bad kit. His bitz and sprue density looks like something from 12-15 years ago.
One chaincannon. That's all I'm going to say. One. . CHAINCANNON.
That was appalling, absolutely. Somehow the SM Devastator kit manages to have two each of an even greater array of weapons.
Right. Twelve heavy weapons. Twelve. And a combi-weapon with a full complement of appropriate bits, storm bolter, and bolter for the Sargeant, along with, what? 4, 5 melee weapons? The Havoc Aspiring Champion doesn't even get a basic bolter, much less a combi-weapon. Neither does the Aspiring Champion in the CSM kit have a combi-weapon option, despite it being an option in the rules. Plus Devastators come with all of that other stuff, servo skulls and such. And the Chaos Terminators are worse. Typical gw treatment for anything CSM.
And not only that: The Havoc Heads attach to their backpacks, meaning they are always looking the same way. Not even any variety there.
The Devastator kit is just a phenomenal kit. The best "heavy weapon squad" kit they ever released.
A ton of heavy weapons, 5 combi weapons for the sargeant, and literally all meele weapons for the sargeant?
The fething devastator sargeant has half the meele weapons that come in the whole chaos terminator box. Let that sink. 9 for the chaos terminators, 6 for the devastator sargeant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/04 03:29:09
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2021/09/04 12:10:38
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
H.B.M.C. wrote: So... everything new in the Ork Combat Patrol is push-fit. Every single new model.
Regression.
Gotta love it huh? I've been waiting for the SOB Start Collecting box for awhile now, so imagine my surprise when the Combat Patrol is full of monopose crap from the first launch box.
It's like GW is doing everything they can to save me money
Old World Prediction: The Empire will have stupid Clockwork Paragon Warsuits and Mecha Horses
2021/09/04 12:14:16
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
AOBR was designed smartly (ish , because big shoota have been debatable since their existence)
but the new combat patroll ork boyz? what was the unit combination
1 Nob, 1 FORCED special weapon, 3 shoots and 5 choppas?
Like, i wanted that box since i wanted me some more boyz to restart my little waagh force that was my first 40k army and a MA Warboss and the koptas and am not opposed to the Big kan.
But the feth am i supposed to do with these boyzs?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/09/04 12:37:04
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2021/09/04 12:40:46
Subject: If EVERY GW Release from Now to Forever was Monopose...
I was going to add my thoughts to this yesterday morning but decided to I should rephrase them a bit.
So I am not pro or con monopose models. I think it absolutely depends on the models in question. Tanks are almost mono pose but this is really about Infantry or monster models.
I love conversions and dynamic model as well. However for things like AM/IG I don't personally see the need for that many different poses. Shooting, advancing and what have you is consistent with what they would be doing and drifts right back to the old Metal model ranges. It's possible that many new 40K players have not seen or don't remember the old metal models each faction had before the plastics. So then I think about variety of poses vs the number of like units I would feel like painting and how much redundancy I feel I actually want in that area, would another kit do the sme task but not look the same, this more for things like Space Marines than AM/IG. My IG army is made from 3rd party Napoleonic and Franco Prussian war models and some Wargames Atlantic kits so the flexibility and pose-ability isn't very high. I'm just looking to hit a few particular poses, again shooting, advancing being the most important to look exciting. Shoulder army is much less exciting on the table top. Going back to the GW monopose my frustration isn't the poses so much as mandatory load outs or locked loadouts due to the supplied models having only those builds from the kits, the new Ork boys mob is the prime offender that comes to mind. On the Primaris range it at least works that these squads only build in these combinations because that's what they do because of doctrine or fluff unlike the orks. I don't like GW forcing unit builds on everything and even looking back to the old Metal IG models there were still other options you could stick in the squads but bought separately as they were. To wrap this up I do like the multi part kits as they are now and have said for a long time that I would also wish they would sell filler models, again for things like Imperial guard or where more appropriate.
All of that said I don't much care for every players army looking effectively the same aside from the chosen paint colors. Especially the heroes. which is where it sticks out the most.
I'm at a point in my GW/40K hobby and gaming where GW itself is not that important to my Gw/40K hobby and gaming. Their game isn't where I would like it and they just aren't providing what I want more of. (After something like 25 years of the hobby.)
For more transparency I only have 1 army for 9th and it was started specifically for 9th. I'll buy a few more codex books (at a discount) but just to have them not to take those armies out to the shops.
I am sure I drifted around here but I feel the two topics for me are interconnected.
GW could definitely do better and offer more customization on the characters, the silly things cost enough we should be able to get more out of them for the price.
The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.
Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.
. CHAINCANNON. 
