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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
... and the painting guides are just of models that no one can paint yet because they haven't been released yet.

The models used are:

Marine head
Tzaangor shield
Intercessors
Sigmarine and orc from the starter set
Wraithlord

And, as said, so far the painting tutorials are concerned with teaching general techniques that do not require specific models.

If only there was a place that literally had hundreds if not thousands of free tutorials on how to paint space marines, by professional and well recognized hobbyists, like Duncan, or Miniac. Oh wait, there is, Youtube.

So who is this "service" (I hate that word because it's association with EA's Games as a live service method) for, exactly?

Hardcore hobbyists? Nope, because they have everything they need and they aren't paying 60 dollars for a new model they get in a year, some painting tips, and 30 minutes of cartoons.

New hobbyists? I don't think so either, because of pretty much the same reasons. Most people new to the hobby don't care about WD from years ago, or how to paint eyes. They will join for the mini and the cartoons. The Mini requires you wait AN ENTIRE YEAR, and the cartoons, which are literally the only part of this that can't be found for free elsewhere, are only 30-45 minutes of content, with "promises" of more to come.

Does anyone think that they actually have 6 episodes of Astartes loaded on deck and ready to release, but they are holding them back? Lets see, it took the maker of those videos almost a year by himself, to make that one single 5 minute episode.

The only person/people this service is for, is whales. Cash cows that GW knows will lap up it's promises of more to come, and it doesn't have to do anything but drop 5 minute Bashi-esque cartoons once a month and people will still say it's a good service.

Most people will still stick with Battlescribe for AoS, Youtube for painting, and the High seas of Torgtuga for their "content". Oh, and paying 60 dollars for a Assassin model that won't see a table, you can already find the STLs for it.

Well Duncan charges for his painting tutorials - or at least a portion of them.

And I'd hardly call the monthly cost for Warhammer+ a "Whale" level price. This isn't dropping £100s a month.

You should expect most animations to be around 17 to 18 minutes at this time. The latest Angels of Death episode is longer than that. The total runtime of the animations is currently around 150 minutes.

Just to get the facts straight.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Most people will still stick with Battlescribe for AoS, Youtube for painting, and the High seas of Torgtuga for their "content".

Interesting that you attempt to distinguish between Battlescribe and other sources of piracy...

 Dysartes wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Most people will still stick with Battlescribe for AoS, Youtube for painting, and the High seas of Torgtuga for their "content".

Interesting that you attempt to distinguish between Battlescribe and other sources of piracy...

Oh noes a free to use P2P data fed software that beats the living gak out of the crappy overpriced subscription bound GW abortion!

Who will think of the children!!!

Seriously? Battlescribe is "pirating"? Please get down off of that mighty high horse you are on. I think the lack of oxygen up there is affecting your rationality. Nothing is pirated about data. If that were true, no one would be legally allowed to call out stats here on the Tactics sub, or complain about points cost of units, or debate the exact wording of copy pasted rules. Learn what fair use is.

Also, pirating of materials only happens when the product or service offered is so difficult or painful to obtain, that violation of a legally dubious code of rules is a better alternative. So it's actually GWs fault. It's why itunes and free music streaming services effectively killed off pirating music. Because it was easier and simpler to just pay 99 cents for that one song I wanted, and I could listen to it forever. If GW offered anything even remotely approaching the level of quality of itunes, battlescribe, or youtube, we wouldn't need to use Wahapedia, Pirate sites, or 3rd page of google to get free content. And GW knows it.

Why do you honestly think GW has never put out any halfway decent digital platform? Because it's not financially viable to them. Loss of money due to theft or piracy is literally built into their projection models.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, pirating of materials only happens when the product or service offered is so difficult or painful to obtain, that violation of a legally dubious code of rules is a better alternative.

I never found most major music nor DVD's hard to obtain - same with video games. And yet those markets are utterly rife with pirating problems of their own.

Heck there's even money laundering systems that happen for video games and other popular digital products distributed through tradeable keys - which when chargebacks are issued then end up penalising the webstores and game creators.


I do understand your point, that widespread pirating often goes hand in hand with prices too high for the average customer; however I think your point grossly oversimplifies the situation. You also have to consider issues whereby a pirating "culture" can form within a population or segments of a population.

 Nevelon wrote:
The painting is more general techniques, not step-by-steps for specific models. It could be that the specific minis used were not out yet (no clue on the ork skin guy) but what was boing taught was universal.

I’ve seen a few tactical blunders, but nothing leaped out as “wrong” with the bat reps. There might have been. Nobody is perfect. They are more casual themed anyway. Push some models around, have some fun. Which comes across very well. We all miss minor points from time to time. And yes, they are doing this professionally, so should be held to a higher standard than FLGS tables. I think if they had to rule check every move to make sure things were polished and 100%, we would have a lot less content then we do now.

The first AoS batrep got a core faction rule wrong in a significant way. Like, the guy clearly won because of the error he made level of significant.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:Seriously? Battlescribe is "pirating"?

as neither points nor rules are free and BS makes them available, yes BS pirating
just that GW does not go after them for reasons does not change it

Overread wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Also, pirating of materials only happens when the product or service offered is so difficult or painful to obtain, that violation of a legally dubious code of rules is a better alternative.

I never found most major music nor DVD's hard to obtain - same with video games. And yet those markets are utterly rife with pirating problems of their own.

Heck there's even money laundering systems that happen for video games and other popular digital products distributed through tradeable keys - which when chargebacks are issued then end up penalising the webstores and game creators.

I do understand your point, that widespread pirating often goes hand in hand with prices too high for the average customer; however I think your point grossly oversimplifies the situation. You also have to consider issues whereby a pirating "culture" can form within a population or segments of a population.

main problem with music was that it wasn't available in digital form that started that thing
as digital storage wasn't that large back than and even mp3 CD's with 70-100 songs instead of the regular 15-20 a big improvement the option to download them instead of converting your collection was much easier

for video games, the option to play them without needing to change CD's or play them on devices without a CD drive started it

Movies/TV shows not being available on DvD for copyright reasons (or because they were banned) in some countries was a reason as well (trading VHS versions of Evil Dead was a thing long before the internet made it possible to download it)

and yes, as soon as the options were there, a culture was build around that and the initial reasons not important any more

For GW, not having a digital version, the digital version being bad, not having a functional army builder and not being able to have all the rules for your army in compact form are reasons why those archives and BS exist in the first place

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The only person/people this service is for, is whales. Cash cows that GW knows will lap up it's promises of more to come, and it doesn't have to do anything but drop 5 minute Bashi-esque cartoons once a month and people will still say it's a good service.

Please, the monthly price is likely hovering around half an hour of work per month in the countries people are posting from here. That is not whale level and if you wanted to sub, even the typical pocket money my friends and I had as kids would allow it without big budget cuts.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Also, pirating of materials only happens when the product or service offered is so difficult or painful to obtain, that violation of a legally dubious code of rules is a better alternative. So it's actually GWs fault. It's why itunes and free music streaming services effectively killed off pirating music. Because it was easier and simpler to just pay 99 cents for that one song I wanted, and I could listen to it forever. If GW offered anything even remotely approaching the level of quality of itunes, battlescribe, or youtube, we wouldn't need to use Wahapedia, Pirate sites, or 3rd page of google to get free content. And GW knows it.

That's completely false, pirating of materials happens when the product is considered too expensive for its value or for a customer's pocket. A single song sounds cheap for 99 cents, but what about 1000 or even 10k (which is more or less the amount of songs I have in my collection of music albums, and I consider it pretty basic with just the essentials)? Pirating music is still a (big) thing. So is pirating movies and tv series, it doesn't matter if Netflix is relatively "supercheap": nothing can beats free. To beat piracy Netflix should cost 1$/month or even less, but in that case I doubt they'll get any profits.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The painting is more general techniques, not step-by-steps for specific models. It could be that the specific minis used were not out yet (no clue on the ork skin guy) but what was boing taught was universal.

I’ve seen a few tactical blunders, but nothing leaped out as “wrong” with the bat reps. There might have been. Nobody is perfect. They are more casual themed anyway. Push some models around, have some fun. Which comes across very well. We all miss minor points from time to time. And yes, they are doing this professionally, so should be held to a higher standard than FLGS tables. I think if they had to rule check every move to make sure things were polished and 100%, we would have a lot less content then we do now.

The first AoS batrep got a core faction rule wrong in a significant way. Like, the guy clearly won because of the error he made level of significant.

OK, core faction rules probably should have been checked.

This is probably the results of handing studio armies to the personalities, giving them a briefing, and letting them have fun. I wonder if they have a rules guy just off camera helping? <insert GW rules joke here>

Would be fun if they had a rematch. Same people, same armies. Admit they messed up something big, play it over.

Ot tinfoil hat time, maybe they messed it up on purpose? We know from old WD reports that they replay the game a few times until they get one good enough to print. Could be playing RAW it was always a one sided stomp, so they messed up the rule to make it a little closer?

I’ve only playerd a few demo games of AoS, and none this edition, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I do enjoy watching the reps, as a way to help learn.

a_typical_hero wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The only person/people this service is for, is whales. Cash cows that GW knows will lap up it's promises of more to come, and it doesn't have to do anything but drop 5 minute Bashi-esque cartoons once a month and people will still say it's a good service.

Please, the monthly price is likely hovering around half an hour of work per month in the countries people are posting from here. That is not whale level and if you wanted to sub, even the typical pocket money my friends and I had as kids would allow it without big budget cuts.

right, so lets call us investors, who hopes that throwing money at this will make this a better product in the long run.

the opinion i would have chosen in the options isn't available. i would have chosen, "i wouldn't recommend this to a friend yet, but i am still optimistic that this will get better eventually, after more videos become available"

a_typical_hero wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The only person/people this service is for, is whales. Cash cows that GW knows will lap up it's promises of more to come, and it doesn't have to do anything but drop 5 minute Bashi-esque cartoons once a month and people will still say it's a good service.

Please, the monthly price is likely hovering around half an hour of work per month in the countries people are posting from here. That is not whale level and if you wanted to sub, even the typical pocket money my friends and I had as kids would allow it without big budget cuts.

As is I'm paying about euro per month or less for animations and apps.

If that is too much for you then you are in wrong game. You can't afford to pay miniatures even. You can't even afford to go to FLGS to play even.

 Blackie wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:


Also, pirating of materials only happens when the product or service offered is so difficult or painful to obtain, that violation of a legally dubious code of rules is a better alternative. So it's actually GWs fault. It's why itunes and free music streaming services effectively killed off pirating music. Because it was easier and simpler to just pay 99 cents for that one song I wanted, and I could listen to it forever. If GW offered anything even remotely approaching the level of quality of itunes, battlescribe, or youtube, we wouldn't need to use Wahapedia, Pirate sites, or 3rd page of google to get free content. And GW knows it.

That's completely false, pirating of materials happens when the product is considered too expensive for its value or for a customer's pocket. A single song sounds cheap for 99 cents, but what about 1000 or even 10k (which is more or less the amount of songs I have in my collection of music albums, and I consider it pretty basic with just the essentials)? Pirating music is still a (big) thing. So is pirating movies and tv series, it doesn't matter if Netflix is relatively "supercheap": nothing can beats free. To beat piracy Netflix should cost 1$/month or even less, but in that case I doubt they'll get any profits.

Pirating used to be a lot larger decades prior, late 90s and 00s than it is today. Netflix and Spotify made it so you can access a lot of content for a very cheap price very easily. No fussing with torrents, TORs and hoping someone didn't upload Naughty Things in the file instead of Finding Nemo. Sure, some people still do it, but it used to be a heck of a lot more. Low price and convenience beat free and inconvenient most of the time except for people who wouldn't pay anything anyway. With streaming services fracturing to the same level cable networks they rescued us from did, people are likely to pirate again because the inconvenience of signing up to 5-6 streaming services to get the same spread of contents will likely be too high.

As is I'm paying about euro per month or less for animations and apps.

If that is too much for you then you are in wrong game.

Value is not the same as cost.

tneva82 wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The only person/people this service is for, is whales. Cash cows that GW knows will lap up it's promises of more to come, and it doesn't have to do anything but drop 5 minute Bashi-esque cartoons once a month and people will still say it's a good service.

Please, the monthly price is likely hovering around half an hour of work per month in the countries people are posting from here. That is not whale level and if you wanted to sub, even the typical pocket money my friends and I had as kids would allow it without big budget cuts.

As is I'm paying about euro per month or less for animations and apps.

If that is too much for you then you are in wrong game. You can't afford to pay miniatures even. You can't even afford to go to FLGS to play even.

I grew up poor in the nineties and got into wargaming during that time.

Wise people on limited means save their limited means and carefully use their resources. They don't waste it on nonsense like warhammer plus.

Your comment reeks of elitism and is beyond out of touch, nor do you understand how money works

Ok, so now the argument is "Kick out the poors!" this is an "Elite" hobby. Ok. I get it, all hobbies can get expensive. But again, who is this for? It's not for the new hobbyist, is not for the casual gamer, it's for the dedicated Hardcore GW whale that will pay 60 USD for a unusable model in a year, oh, and some videos that are literally free elsewhere. So yeah, I'm not a hardo, but I do think this is part of EA/GW's games as a "live service" mentality, that does nothing to bring new people into the hobby, and actively pushes people away.

Well on that logic pretty much anything on anything is whale. Euro per month...

So if you go to movie theather you are a whale.

Buy a book? Whale.

Buy CD? Whale.

I would love to see Fezzik not buy anything from any store. If he buys he's whale by his own logic.

tneva82 wrote:
Well on that logic pretty much anything on anything is whale. Euro per month...

So if you go to movie theather you are a whale.

Buy a book? Whale.

Buy CD? Whale.

I would love to see Fezzik not buy anything from any store. If he buys he's whale by his own logic.

You do realise he said the customers were whales not the product........don't you?

Like the whale that's covered in barnacles and whale lice....

Whale is a term that keeps getting thrown around and generally translates too


"This thing is more expensive than I wish to pay for/can justify spending. Therefore I presume that the only person who would buy such a thing is a person who has money in the extreme excess and is able to pay for any and all hobby releases without thought"


It's a duel insult/frustration toward GW (often for rising prices) and toward those who do choose to spend large sums on the hobby. However its rarely rolled out directly against either party, its always thrown out as "oh the whales would buy it" rather like "the man" or "the sheeple" or such.

It doesn't actually aim to classify or target any specific person, its simply a frustration vent that's been used so often people use it without much thought.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
If only there was a place that literally had hundreds if not thousands of free tutorials on how to paint space marines, by professional and well recognized hobbyists, like Duncan, or Miniac. Oh wait, there is, Youtube.

So who is this "service" (I hate that word because it's association with EA's Games as a live service method) for, exactly?

Hardcore hobbyists? Nope, because they have everything they need and they aren't paying 60 dollars for a new model they get in a year, some painting tips, and 30 minutes of cartoons.

New hobbyists? I don't think so either, because of pretty much the same reasons. Most people new to the hobby don't care about WD from years ago, or how to paint eyes. They will join for the mini and the cartoons. The Mini requires you wait AN ENTIRE YEAR, and the cartoons, which are literally the only part of this that can't be found for free elsewhere, are only 30-45 minutes of content, with "promises" of more to come.

Does anyone think that they actually have 6 episodes of Astartes loaded on deck and ready to release, but they are holding them back? Lets see, it took the maker of those videos almost a year by himself, to make that one single 5 minute episode.

The only person/people this service is for, is whales. Cash cows that GW knows will lap up it's promises of more to come, and it doesn't have to do anything but drop 5 minute Bashi-esque cartoons once a month and people will still say it's a good service.

Most people will still stick with Battlescribe for AoS, Youtube for painting, and the High seas of Torgtuga for their "content". Oh, and paying 60 dollars for a Assassin model that won't see a table, you can already find the STLs for it.

I would say that so far, the two things I think of when I watch the animations are the old Heavy Metal cartoon movie (Hammer and Bolter) and Sin City (Angels of Death).

So my answer to "Who is this for?" is anyone who liked those movies enough that they want more.

I also think its for people who like the lore and stories that come from the IP. If you're the type of player who writes short stories about the battles you fight and gives names to all the generic models in your army, you'll probably like it (although you will want more- the library of titles is still sparse).

Furthermore, you can bet your ass my Vindicare will see the table... But not as presented- I have plans to magnetize the Vindicare itself so that I can use that as my assassin while I use its scenic statue as an alternative statue for the SoB Battle Sanctum.

tneva82 wrote:
Well on that logic pretty much anything on anything is whale. Euro per month...

You keep saying this but WH+ is not one Euro a month. If you factor in the price of the "free" model and if you already had subscriptions to the apps then you might get that figure, but in absolute terms it's more than that. continuing to use that figure is disingenuous in the extreme.

Slipspace wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well on that logic pretty much anything on anything is whale. Euro per month...

You keep saying this but WH+ is not one Euro a month. If you factor in the price of the "free" model and if you already had subscriptions to the apps then you might get that figure, but in absolute terms it's more than that. continuing to use that figure is disingenuous in the extreme.

How does

"It's about as much as White Dwarf"

which, last I checked, isn't a "whale" product

The more I watch the happier I am

I didn’t enjoy old bale eye but so far everything else has been pretty good. If Gw keep up with adding good content and the other freebies then I’ll be very happy

 Overread wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well on that logic pretty much anything on anything is whale. Euro per month...

You keep saying this but WH+ is not one Euro a month. If you factor in the price of the "free" model and if you already had subscriptions to the apps then you might get that figure, but in absolute terms it's more than that. continuing to use that figure is disingenuous in the extreme.

How does

"It's about as much as White Dwarf"

which, last I checked, isn't a "whale" product

Dunno for what £7 gets you I wouldn't pay for white dwarf every month, only reason I got the recent one was for the transfer sheet.

It's not a matter of not being able to afford it, I just don't think it's worth it.

Value just isn't there for me, it could be free and I still wouldn't give a flying feth.

mrFickle wrote:
The more I watch the happier I am

Oh god, GW is now using subliminal suggestions in their battle reports

Anyway, whale has a pretty well-defined meaning in gaming industry, if slightly fluid depending on type of gaming. Basically it's the few top spenders that are provide more income than a whole bunch of "dolphins" and "minnows". I don't know if they do provide majority of income to GW like they do to mobile/lootbox-having video games or if they're just a nice "bonus", because obviously GW does not publish that sort of data to my knowledge. But if you see any marketing that aims at making the buyer feel "elite" or "better" than the others, it's aimed at whales or aspiring whales.

WH+ isn't really aimed at whales, but it's part of GW's attempt to make you spend as much as possible within GW "ecosystem", to stay with the brand as long as possible every day.

Gotta say, I'm pleasantly surprised at how much I'm enjoying Hammer and Bolter. Rest of the service aside, this series has been great.

I'm actually shocked that they're taking the time to do these little slice of life vignettes of 40k. The fact that we've only had one episode feature space marines and it centred around the aspirant rites of non-astartes humans is awesome. If you'd have asked me what I'd expected a year ago I would've said lots of stories about primaris ultramarines bloodlessly shooting orks.

The grim dark is definitely there.

My ranking of hammer and bolter from best to worst:
Episode 4 Fang
Episode 5 a question of faith
Episode 1 death's hand
Episode 3 old bale eye

...while Bound for Greatness is an outlier and is like comparing apples and oranges, but is still frighteningly enjoyable.