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It doesn't help that many of the AA units out there with multiple shots are S7 D2, which is just useless vs ramshackle etc.

The only reason Freeboota is even considered right now is because of all the spammed MSU squishy things.
Its not hard to wipe out 1 unit against admech/drukari. When we first got freeboota the meta was super tough units, so it was regarded as trash because it usually took most of your list to GET that kill in the first place unless you left something at 1-2 wounds left.
Freeboota favor will die out when the meta shifts back to elitist lists. Nerfing them wont do anything other than strip an option, as if theyre bad against MSU squishy stuff then theyre bad period.

Totally fine with the squigbuggy jumping 10-15pts. I keep finding myself wanting to field another squigbuggy instead of a scrapjet, even though their weapons are considerably different.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

Jarms48 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

All buggies are not created equal
No one really has a problem with kustom boosta blasta, boomdaka snazzwagon or shockjump dragsta
Also outside of the crazy 18 buggy spam list most competitive players aren’t using multiple models in a unit.
jack up squigbuggies and dakkajets 10-15 pts and scrapjets 5-10pts.
Then watch the meta shift a little with buggies like kustom boosta blasta return.

Jarms48 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

If I remember rightly the list that tabled the DE venom list just ran loads of single buggies, so squadrons aren't necessarily the problem. Realistically it makes them weaker as you run the risk of losing the entire unit to morale when you lose one of the three.

If GW were to change profiles about, I think the buggies losing a couple of wounds each to make them more fragile could be a way to go and just make them more glass-cannon skirmish units rather than effectively light tanks. The Squigbuggy could probably go to 24" on the heavy squig launcher to force it to put itself on offer a bit more as well.

But that's not going to happen really so if anything it will just be a points increase to 100/105 points apiece for the buggies and a similar increase to the Dakkajet. Maybe a change to the jets that they don't benefit from Competitive Streak or something.

It's difficult to balance this sort of thing, because you either do too little and there's basically no change, or you make it unusable.

"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would make the trait much more useful in smaller games/detachments and would prevent a massive buff for entire armies benefitting from it.

A few units should go up in points as well. Dakkajets for example (and also both Bombers) I feel like they worth 150 points, even without Speedwaaagh and Freebooters, they'll be in line with most of the other planes across the codexes. An unbuffed dakkajet gets 12 hit at S6 AP-1 on average, on a superfast flying platform. Still very good but at least not auto spammable.

+30ppm may seem like a lot but a 120 points flyer that gets 12-21 hits at S6 AP-1/-2 on average is a really really cheap one, and even going 3x Dakkajets and 8-9 buggies (assuming +10/15 ppm for Scrapjets and Squigbuggies) we're talking about an overall raise of 200 points at most, which is basically one less flyer and one less buggy on current lists. On lists that don't really spam those three units such raises wouldn't have a significant impact.

 bullyboy wrote:
It doesn't help that many of the AA units out there with multiple shots are S7 D2, which is just useless vs ramshackle etc.

Which of those are actually useful against any other fliers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jarms48 wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

are buggies an issue? or is it a clan rule letting them get ~50% more hits than they were designed for? changing the buggies makes them worse for everybody when it seems (to me anyway) if anything the freeboota trait is the issue.

I think you either need to remove the ability to squad buggies, or remove Ramshackle from Buggies and Aircraft.

What makes you think that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would make the trait much more useful in smaller games/detachments and would prevent a massive buff for entire armies benefitting from it.

A few units should go up in points as well. Dakkajets for example (and also both Bombers) I feel like they worth 150 points, even without Speedwaaagh and Freebooters, they'll be in line with most of the other planes across the codexes. An unbuffed dakkajet gets 12 hit at S6 AP-1 on average, on a superfast flying platform. Still very good but at least not auto spammable.

+30ppm may seem like a lot but a 120 points flyer that gets 12-21 hits at S6 AP-1/-2 on average is a really really cheap one, and even going 3x Dakkajets and 8-9 buggies (assuming +10/15 ppm for Scrapjets and Squigbuggies) we're talking about an overall raise of 200 points at most, which is basically one less flyer and one less buggy on current lists. On lists that don't really spam those three units such raises wouldn't have a significant impact.

`

A couple of things I disagree on
- Making dakka jets as good as planes in other codices means nerfing them out of the game. Almost no other codices are playing their planes because they cost too much.
- I don't think you need to consider balancing dakkajets without speedwaaagh because realistically they are totally going to have it during their first two turns. Their synergy with regular Waaagh lists is minimal anyways. Essentially they need to be balanced around throwing down 42 S6 AP-2 attacks that hit 14 times, because that is what they are realistically doing in the vast majority of games they are played in.
-150 points might be a bit too much, the bommers are already that price and get bombs on top of comparable firepower. It's also fairly specialized unit that just happens to be a perfect counter against the T3 models currently dominating the game. Killing 3 marines, a single terminator or dealing 3 damage to a vehicles at full capacity is nothing to write home about. Against armies like DG a dakkajet is pretty much useless.
- It is quite difficult to find comparable units that actually see play. Most high RoF units cost too much to see play unless they have additional benefits like the redemptor or the talonmaster.
- Orks are only slightly overperforming right now (in 8th 55% winrate was considered "balanced"), but hitting them with a 200 points nerf would be the same magnitude that the last drukhari nerf was. You would essentially just be killing the army for competitive play.

In any case, when looking at other armies for balance you have to take into account that the meta currently is completely warped by drukhari and admech, and the dakkajet-squigbuggy-freeboota combo is a symptom of that. You need to address the root cause first before trying to finetune an army that already is fairly close to being balanced.

The main reason for whacking those buggies in my oppinion is to improve list diversity for orks.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

OK, bring back the 24" restriction.

It'll change literally nothing. I'll fly a single dakkajet into the middle of the table, shoot one thing, and the whole board will have the buff.

the 24" range thing was just fiddly.

Fiddly, yes. I agree the rule is "better" now, but it still creates a problem. There should be some limitation there.

There is a limitation there. Until you destroy a unit, you have no subfaction trait. When the normal damage that a unit could output was roughly 25% of their value before using stratagems, you would have to either choose:

-do I burn my CP to get the initial unit kill, and use it less efficiently?

-do I wait to use my CP until after, in which case more of my units have attacked without a subfaction trait bonus?

Now that normal firepower is more like 50% value, you pick one unit, you pick one enemy unit worth roughly half as much, and you blow them away with a single shooting attack.

The people scratching their heads going "Hmmm what could possibly have changed here" are really quite amusing tbh.

I'lll give you a hint:

<.<

>.>

games workshop made everything in the codex do more damage for its cost. Like theyve done with most units in most 9e codexes.

GW made units useful. Squigbuggies were...not great.

One now kills two marines out of cover - a 44% conversion, which is good on it's own, but not obscene ( by my standard ) given the footprint.

Just freebooter is 63%
Just speedwaaagh is 57%
Both together are 79%

Freebooter is the bigger piece of the problem. The other part is no LOS weapons with no penalty.

This is further reinforced by tougher armies ( mostly big block Thousand Sons and DG ) being able to beat these Orks lists, because they don't have stuff to easily trigger freebooters.

Restricting freebooters and giving a light tap to buggies or giving no LOS some sort of penalty would rectify most of the Ork problem.

Nothing that shoots out of LoS has a penalty in 9th.
One of the many changes that makes no sense. Things shooting out of LoS should have their BS reduced by 1 (so it stacks at -2 to hit effectively)

This isnt just an ork thing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Nothing that shoots out of LoS has a penalty in 9th.
One of the many changes that makes no sense. Things shooting out of LoS should have their BS reduced by 1 (so it stacks at -2 to hit effectively)

This isnt just an ork thing.

It's probably my biggest pet peeve. I hated it with mortars in 8th and I hate it now.

But I feel like hitting Orks with a -1 to hit is overly punitive compared with other armies. I think anything getting hit when you don't have LOS should maybe pick up a +1 save stackable with cover. That will dent artillery in a more equitably...maybe.

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would be a straight up buff. Double hit on sixes is a massive 50% buff if you have a 5+ to hit. That would essentially be the same as before, but without the requirement to kill a unit to activate.

thats also literally the Badmoonz stratagem

Yeah. BS5+ with exploding 6's and BS4+ would be the same averadge. Except it would lead to some really swingy results. And would behave different under re-roll auraes.

(I just realised how ridicules SW are in assault doctrine. Hitting on 2+ with exploding 6's is like auto hitting essentually. More when you have re-roll to hit auras where you can fish for 6's.)

Honestly, I think if you wait, buggies will balance out a bit. If they’re doin work against drukhari/DE that leaves some room for other factions to creep in, more durable, more s8 ones that can do work against buggies.
The big problem with nerfing this stuff is that it’s pretty sensitive. Freebootas would really suck with any nerf, and buggies are only made excellent with them.
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

I assure you friend, the rest of the book is kinda trash. Boyz are trash, walkers are trash, any infantry really outside of stormboyz and kommandos are trash. Weirdboys/Meks are godawful. Snaggas are alright I guess?? But they kind of struggle too. 9th ork dex was definitively designed to sell the buggies.

There's a whole range of good to ok that is way more nuanced than just using the pejorative lens of "trash".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

Well said. Thread is over now

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

Well...you just listed 28 units there.

I highly doubt bikes, stormboyz and kommandos get whacked. If anything boyz will take a 1 point drop and buggies/planes go up a bit.

Though I doubt GW has Ork changes in an official CA if it's coming in a few weeks. It will have to be an FAQ on the CA.

That happens in any army. Theres several units that 'work' but theres 1-2 that are clearly better.

Deffdreads vs Buggies for instance.

Dreads w/ pure melee are the only thing they do better than buggies, but only if they can actually reach something (usually cant). Any other loadout youre better off with a buggy, both because its cheaper // possibly hits more reliably // faster
Dreads are T7 but it ultimately doesnt mean much. They tend to eat the S8 guns, which 1-2 shot them.

You can run dreads and probably do just fine but when you get to those upper levels of tournament play the slightly less efficient unit is gonna show more and more.

This problem will happen in any game that doesnt impose strict list-building limitations forcing you to take different things because you cant spam the obvious better one (either literally or some odd mechanic gets in the way as a MAJOR drawback if you spam)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Dakkajets are basically only playable in freebootas.

This perspective is shaped by the rules at present. The same way that buggies squeeze out most other ork units. Taking these things down a notch allows the rest of the book to breathe.

There are a bunch of decent units that don’t see a lot of competitive play…but a lot of bad units… I mean is there a worse unit point for point than Gretchin? It’s a troop that not obj secured, and can’t gain any buffs or auras or army benefits. And it’s base state line is already worse then all other comparable units. And then they made it have worse morale and a 7+ save.

But here is the list of decent but not always competitive units.
All 5 buggies but you only see 2 (with snazzwagon being okay)
Warbikers, deffkoptas, stormboys, kommandos
Big Mek in mega armor, beastsnagga boyz, burnaboys, squigriders, nob on smasha squig
Dakkajet, wazbom, Mek guns, kannon wagon, Killrig
Zagstrukk deffdread meganobs and trukk are at best ok
Plus the following are good but only can take 1 per detachment:
Warboss on squig, mega warboss, warboss on bike, wartrike, mozgrod

That’s pretty much the only good to decent ork units but you only really see 2 buggies and dakkajets in freebooter talked about. All the klans are decent as well but are not seen as much since only the klans that benefit the best units are used… I mean bloodaxe is a pretty bad kultur but it’s seen as competitive because it is decent on buggies, but in comparison it’s pretty bad.

Let’s be honest GW isn’t going to do a major rules or detachment change in right now… we are looking at a chapter approved type point update first and buggies and aircraft will likely get a hike hopefully the nerf stroke isn’t to wide and ruin the other less useful buggies or take out units like kommandos, stormboys, warbikers just because buggy lists use them as fillers.

Well...you just listed 28 units there.

I highly doubt bikes, stormboyz and kommandos get whacked. If anything boyz will take a 1 point drop and buggies/planes go up a bit.

Though I doubt GW has Ork changes in an official CA if it's coming in a few weeks. It will have to be an FAQ on the CA.

I mean there are 61 datasheets in the ork codex (some of the ones I listed were also FW units) so ya less then half of them are playable. I didn’t say these were all competitive in fact i specifically said some were ok at best. But what’s left out of that list is mostly bad to awful.

There was rumors of a point hike on buggies and dakkajets over a month ago… I think it’s already in the CA which doesn’t sound like it’s being released until next year at this rate. But mainly my point was people asking for detachment changes or big updates to army rules is unlikely to happen for a bit.

Well, not competitive is not the same as not playable at all. Grey knights have a codex with so much fewer unit options. Their competitive main units is basically interceptors and dread knights. But it doesn't mean the other units can't be played.

 Jidmah wrote:

- Orks are only slightly overperforming right now (in 8th 55% winrate was considered "balanced"), but hitting them with a 200 points nerf would be the same magnitude that the last drukhari nerf was. You would essentially just be killing the army for competitive play.

The main reason for whacking those buggies in my oppinion is to improve list diversity for orks.

Same opinion. Of course points hike should come along points drops for some other stuff. Nauts, lootas, flash gitz, kanz, big mek with SAG... come to mind.

Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would be a straight up buff. Double hit on sixes is a massive 50% buff if you have a 5+ to hit. That would essentially be the same as before, but without the requirement to kill a unit to activate.

Average should be slightly inferior on units with high RoF, which are the most common on in full freeboota armies. Also very swingy on units with low RoF, for which a flat +1 to hit would be much more reliable.

But I don't really think the trait should be nerfed, just re-shaped; in fact I think it should be buffed in order to make it count also for smaller detachments but in a way that large freeboota detachments don't get any significant improvements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

I mean there are 61 datasheets in the ork codex (some of the ones I listed were also FW units) so ya less then half of them are playable. I didn’t say these were all competitive in fact i specifically said some were ok at best. But what’s left out of that list is mostly bad to awful.

Not true, most of the stuff you didn't list is definitely playable. Nobz, battlewagon, bonebreaker, warboss on foot, weirdboy, grotsnik, snikrot, boyz, gretchins, kill tank. Even lootas, tankbustas, kanz and nauts aren't that terrible. They're all decent but not always competitive units. The units you listed are the tournament level ones.

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

I think we are soon to see an irrational hatred for Nids, those buffed up hive guards are pure cancer. I don't really know if sguig buggies are worse offenders or not, but current nid lists dunk on freebooter lists with ease, even going second (if hive guards have the ignore ap 1 and 2, which they should always have).

 Blackie wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

- Orks are only slightly overperforming right now (in 8th 55% winrate was considered "balanced"), but hitting them with a 200 points nerf would be the same magnitude that the last drukhari nerf was. You would essentially just be killing the army for competitive play.

The main reason for whacking those buggies in my oppinion is to improve list diversity for orks.

Same opinion. Of course points hike should come along points drops for some other stuff. Nauts, lootas, flash gitz, kanz, big mek with SAG... come to mind.

Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
"Problem" with the Freeboota trait is that it could be extremely powerful or not even triggered. Maybe GW could change it into "6s to hit score double hits", like Goffs in melee but applied to shooting instead.

That would be a straight up buff. Double hit on sixes is a massive 50% buff if you have a 5+ to hit. That would essentially be the same as before, but without the requirement to kill a unit to activate.

Average should be slightly inferior on units with high RoF, which are the most common on in full freeboota armies. Also very swingy on units with low RoF, for which a flat +1 to hit would be much more reliable.

But I don't really think the trait should be nerfed, just re-shaped; in fact I think it should be buffed in order to make it count also for smaller detachments but in a way that large freeboota detachments don't get any significant improvements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:

I mean there are 61 datasheets in the ork codex (some of the ones I listed were also FW units) so ya less then half of them are playable. I didn’t say these were all competitive in fact i specifically said some were ok at best. But what’s left out of that list is mostly bad to awful.

Not true, most of the stuff you didn't list is definitely playable. Nobz, battlewagon, bonebreaker, warboss on foot, weirdboy, grotsnik, snikrot, boyz, gretchins, kill tank. Even lootas, tankbustas, kanz and nauts aren't that terrible. They're all decent but not always competitive units. The units you listed are the tournament level ones.

Your mind is definitely warped from the ork codex… you literally listed Gretchin
I mean take a look at every other 5pt per model unit in any dex…
It is by far the worst. It’s a troop unit without obj secured (wtf), that specifically can’t benefit from any klan/regiment buffs… they even made it worse then it was last codex.. and the only reason people take Gretchin is boys are worse…. Lol it is still a bad unit regardless if people are forced to take troops… I mean the bone breaker is a worse version of the battlewagon with deffrolla…... nauts are almost completely unplayable under LOW…..we can go on… but the bottom line is just because you can play a bad unit doesn’t make it a good unit.

(The killtank is good for its points I forgot it because I don’t play it)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 addnid wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

I think we are soon to see an irrational hatred for Nids, those buffed up hive guards are pure cancer. I don't really know if sguig buggies are worse offenders or not, but current nid lists dunk on freebooter lists with ease, even going second (if hive guards have the ignore ap 1 and 2, which they should always have).

I wouldby mind seeing strong bug lists they are a fun army… also snaggas love to kill monster units…..

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

thinking back, i'd have to agree that people have this weird issue with losing to orks.

Majority of the games i can recall in the past that werent by a hair victories my opponent complained about something in the ork list being OP....even in 7th edition in the like 3-4 games i actually won because the army was so dang bad lol.
Also i love the complaint that "Orks are supposed to be melee! You're supposed to charge forward not shoot things!" so...you want me to be a 1trick pony you can predict...got it... orks have always been a sorta half-n-half army and when you butcher their most common source of melee in the latest edition no duh they shift to a nearly full shooty army.

The only thing more reliable then orks being a skew meta army that people complain about is the overhanded nerfs to those units even if they aren’t great but a skew to the current meta…
When nob bikers were strong they hammered that out for like 3 editions of worthless.
When boy greentide was strong… they beat them out..
When lootas were good they nerfed them 3x in a row.
When Gretchin was good mostly because of Grot shields they nuked them.
SSAG making some rankings let’s basically remove that option…
Deathskulls preferred let’s fix that…
Why do people use tankbustas so much… let’s get rid of that so you play something else
The majority of the above weren’t actually winning a lot of tournaments like the current buggies…but still got nuked..

I mean Mek guns overall survived an edition with major changes and still being good so that was a surprise…
That brings us to the current strong unit in the ork codex buggies.
I hope you guys weren’t expecting to use these for long.

I’ve played orks so long now that just to build a strong (not necessarily tournament winning army) my collection consists of:
100x ork boys
12+ warbikers (and I still need to get more)
7 buggies (again still short of current preferred lists)
26 kommandos (mostly cause killteam box gave me 10x)
15 tabkbustas
15 lootas
20 stormboys
6 Mek guns
4 trukks
3 magnetized airplanes
6 killakans
3 deff dreads
And currently 6x deffkoptas but I plan to pick up the start collecting some point..
This doesn’t include the beast snagga stuff I haven’t painted yet and some not built..
I try not to overbuy or spam stuff to much but the ork codex tends to take major swings at units from good to bad and sometimes back to good again.

So when I say I expect all buggies not just squigbuggy to get brutally nerfed.. I speak from experience. There is no slight tweaks w orks. They will drastically increase points, nerf ramshackle from -1 dam to +1 sv, and for good measure limit unit size to 1. Maybe change freebooter to +1 hit to melee only since that’s a reoccurring theme for the ork codex…raise points on stormboys, kommandos, warbikers, all airplanes and say GG see you in 3 yes at 10ed.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Last drukhari nerf didn't kill anything, their still a top rated army and the same units that got a price hike (Raider?) are still very competitive.

The last nerf dropped their win rates by about 10%, they were just so insanely over the top that they are still dominating. Dropping orks by they same amount would just ruin them.

Once again, orks are NOT in the same league as admech or drukhari - many people just have an irrationally large hatred for losing against orks for some reason as they are still the joke army that is always supposed to lose in many people's minds.

thinking back, i'd have to agree that people have this weird issue with losing to orks.

Majority of the games i can recall in the past that werent by a hair victories my opponent complained about something in the ork list being OP....even in 7th edition in the like 3-4 games i actually won because the army was so dang bad lol.
Also i love the complaint that "Orks are supposed to be melee! You're supposed to charge forward not shoot things!" so...you want me to be a 1trick pony you can predict...got it... orks have always been a sorta half-n-half army and when you butcher their most common source of melee in the latest edition no duh they shift to a nearly full shooty army.

Ironically, the wider community response to Ork success kind of matches with the fluff in-universe too. A lot of times Orks are successful in their wars against the other races because they underestimate them by viewing Orks as a backwater, barbaric species and allow them to build up to a full-scale WAAAGH! that overwhelms them. In a similar way, non-Ork players see Orks as an army you play for the memes and don't understand how it requires a lot of nuance and understanding to play them unlike beginner friendly or braindead point and click FoTM armies, so when they come across a skew list that counters their kind of army, they throw a hissy fit because it doesn't fit their narrative of an easy win. It's bizarre how often they're surprised by Ork shooting when Orks were the ones bringing up all the stuff about dakka. I think it's a matter of people drinking some of the codex faction fluff kool aid a little too much. Though I find it funny that despite being a dying race, whenever people play Eldar they never complain about being too durable back when they were broken as a faction.