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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw. I was surprised that GW so openly states: "Obviously, a new edition of Warhammer 40,000 is still some years off, but we like to start early."

I mean, one big complaint is the fast change of edition every couple years...


It's fine, it's not like we don't already know 10th is on the way.
It'll arrive 6-9 months after the last Codex in the line-up. Right after the obligatory PA style filler material.
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Dudeface wrote:

Yes, but I couldn't imagine spending all this time and energy on something I actively dislike/have no current interest in.


Not all my time. Some times when I'm standing out in the yard with the dogs, or while eating dinner, or while ignoring a TV show. I assume it's the same for most people. Currently I have an hour to burn before I go out to get a take out, so I'm browsing the internet. I don't have "no current interest in" 40k. I'm very interested because I want to play the game again because I've spent 30 years playing it.

I would spend my time engaging with something I do deem acceptable, want to spend my money on and enjoy.

So do I. But it's not 40k or GW at present.

And yes I'm also sure a decent % of the consistent complainers, do it because it's popular to GW bash in this community.

This is your own confirmation bias. People couldn't POSSIBLY dislike the thing you like so you assume they're just being contrarian. They couldn't possibly be frustrated that the game isn't meeting what they ask for as a hobby/money sink.

You also seem to assume that people are unable to enjoy something despite its flaws,

No game is perfect and I don't ever think 40k will ever be a mechanically amazing game, probably never even great Maybe good if GW REALLY tried. All I ask that it be enjoyable to play, which I don't think it is.

but your standards aren't golden

Yes they are.

and you don't have to be an apologist or drone to enjoy or find something acceptable.

No, but it helps. Don't deny that there is a lot of sunk cost fallacy in regards to 40k and GW or that they have their whales and they know how to target them. I also don't deny that people enjoy 40k but I sometimes wonder how much of that is the social element more than the game. As I've said before I've watched games of 9th where the people whose turn it isn't are having a better time than the person who is currently playing because they get to interact with the people around the table rather than the game itself.. Since they had fun being social in the context of playing 40k was it the game they enjoyed or the social experience? But that's another conversation for another time. I don't think people are wrong to enjoy 40k and I've never said they are.


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I put that

"The game should be as balanced as possible"

And

"you should only update it every year"

Let's see if the conclusion they draw from that is:
1) Put more care into the base releases so they're balanced out the gate, meaning massive balance revisions are less necessary

or

2) He put "as balanced as possible" but clearly it isn't very possible because he only wants it updated yearly trolorlorlorlorl
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord






I honestly do hope they can refine down a product that will make the majority happy and by extension, something you'll enjoy coming back to. They have the ability to do so and the game does need a lot of tlc to get where I think anyone wants it to be in an ideal world.

Sadly I just don't think they're going to quite get there any time soon and I don't like to think anyone is out there being so consistently fed up with something they should enjoy, so it does make me feel better this is just a time filler for you.

As scotsman summed up in the news thread, in honesty this whole thing is likely very shares and profit based, which likely isn't really heavily weighted in the 40k rules so much as the global pandemic bubble bursting for them.

They probably don't fully understand the problem, who they want to speak to or why in reality.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 the_scotsman wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
Bring back kit-bashing, instead of 'what's in the box' limitations.


Top comment; wish I'd've thought to add that to my long list


Oh boy, same here.

I also forgot the wonky Bodyguard rules; preventing me from sniping a character who is the closest thing to me kind of strikes me as a rule not working as intended, preventing me from firing overwatch when a character charges in by themselves definitely strikes me as a rule not working as intended.


of all the things to complain about right now, the fact that you can only reduce characters to a pair of smoking boots after youve reduced their bodyguards to a pair of smoking boots is a strange take.

I never have any trouble doing both.


The issue isn't that it's hard, the issue is that the rule is unintuitive. And believe me, it would have been at the end of a pretty long list of other unintuitive rules.

   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

Well, is it really worth commenting and answering?

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, is it really worth commenting and answering?


Depends, do you want the game to be altered in some way?

If yes, say you play every 6 minutes, you make a billion pounds a year, and you WANT. YOUR GOD DAMN. SQUATS BACK.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought




San Jose, CA

 the_scotsman wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, is it really worth commenting and answering?


Depends, do you want the game to be altered in some way?

If yes, say you play every 6 minutes, you make a billion pounds a year, and you WANT. YOUR GOD DAMN. SQUATS BACK.

Bingo
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 the_scotsman wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
Bring back kit-bashing, instead of 'what's in the box' limitations.


Top comment; wish I'd've thought to add that to my long list


Oh boy, same here.

I also forgot the wonky Bodyguard rules; preventing me from sniping a character who is the closest thing to me kind of strikes me as a rule not working as intended, preventing me from firing overwatch when a character charges in by themselves definitely strikes me as a rule not working as intended.


of all the things to complain about right now, the fact that you can only reduce characters to a pair of smoking boots after youve reduced their bodyguards to a pair of smoking boots is a strange take.

I never have any trouble doing both.


How much los ignoring guns you have? Not every faction has enough to reliably take out bodyguard.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Thadin wrote:
Huh. I only got prompted for two questions.
1- How long has it been since you played 40k?
A year or more
2 - Why did you stop?
Current game rules don't appeal to me

And... that was it. How's everyone getting all these damn questions? I need to make my super important opinion heard!


Didn't know that. Good thing I played a game against a friend over the summer so I couldn't lie...

Gave them the full rant in the last comment box. I'm sure they won't read it though and just want fawning praise from the Buttermilk Bobs of the world.


Games Workshop Delenda Est.

Users on ignore- 53.

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




NE Ohio, USA

 the_scotsman wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, is it really worth commenting and answering?


Depends, do you want the game to be altered in some way?

If yes, say you play every 6 minutes, you make a billion pounds a year, and you WANT. YOUR GOD DAMN. SQUATS BACK.


They'd see through that.
Because were there any Squat fan with a Billion dollars?
Then there would already be a Squat fan owning GW.
And you all would be discussing how broken Living Ancients are or something & eagerly awaiting mk.2 exo-armor trikes.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw. I was surprised that GW so openly states: "Obviously, a new edition of Warhammer 40,000 is still some years off, but we like to start early."

I mean, one big complaint is the fast change of edition every couple years...


Yeah, I wanted to point at that open lie as well [hurr hurr hurr, we’re totally not ready to already drop the next version June 2022], but I imagine most people just rolled their eyes on that statement and moved along. Why ask for a rules survey if you aren’t considering major rule changes/cleanups?

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Stormonu wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw. I was surprised that GW so openly states: "Obviously, a new edition of Warhammer 40,000 is still some years off, but we like to start early."

I mean, one big complaint is the fast change of edition every couple years...


Yeah, I wanted to point at that open lie as well [hurr hurr hurr, we’re totally not ready to already drop the next version June 2022], but I imagine most people just rolled their eyes on that statement and moved along. Why ask for a rules survey if you aren’t considering major rule changes/cleanups?


I'd find it quite unlikely to be 2022. They'd have to have the book nearly done for a June launch. Average launch is 3 to 4 years so 2023 makes sense.
   
Made in gb
Gore-Drenched Khorne Chaos Lord




 Stormonu wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw. I was surprised that GW so openly states: "Obviously, a new edition of Warhammer 40,000 is still some years off, but we like to start early."

I mean, one big complaint is the fast change of edition every couple years...


Yeah, I wanted to point at that open lie as well [hurr hurr hurr, we’re totally not ready to already drop the next version June 2022], but I imagine most people just rolled their eyes on that statement and moved along. Why ask for a rules survey if you aren’t considering major rule changes/cleanups?


I mean, 1 year is still "some years" on an incredibly literal level that would annoy people. It's not like they're prone to retroactively altering articles to scrub times off or anything.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wrote:

"An elegant game combines simple rules with depth of choices. WH40K does the exact opposite. Rules bloat like the multitude of equipment choices with minute differences adds to the memorisation load but provides no opportunity for interesting decisions on tabletop. The game confuses depth with width. The game has terrible upkeep to actual gameplay (decisions and choices) ratio. Decisions are simplistic, resolution long and tedious. The game looks awesome, but it's its only saving grace"
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I wrote:

The core rules are relatively solid, and I'm happy with them, the codexes and campaign books are where the game falls down in my opinion.

You gained a lot of good faith during 8th with your community engagement and scheduled balance patches, which you roughly followed, but these seem to have been abandoned in 9th and its making me feel less positive about the game, and by extension, you as a company.

While I don't think the current rules are difficult to follow, the sheer quantity of rules and sources, makes the game difficult (my own army requires 5 books), Id love for some form of subscription which would give me access to all the rules and self updates when you publish faqs/errata.

As far as balance goes, I really like being able to customise my army, and I love how much scope everyone has for this, but I also want a game where, the vast majority of times, showing up for a game against an unknown opponent, we wouldn't be able to tell who will most likely win just by looking at each others armies, or by who won the roll off to go first. Right now Id say that about 75% of the time, the game beyond the first turn roll off is already a foregone conclusion. However I recognise that right now, changing this would be very very difficult without a significant rewrite on the scale of 8th or even more drastic.

Most importantly, please listen to the feedback of your play testers when they tell you things might be too effective. And invest more in testing before you send to print. Id love for more regular game patches, but Id rather you spent some more time initially to get the product more polished before you dropped it on us.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Stormonu wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Btw. I was surprised that GW so openly states: "Obviously, a new edition of Warhammer 40,000 is still some years off, but we like to start early."

I mean, one big complaint is the fast change of edition every couple years...


Yeah, I wanted to point at that open lie as well [hurr hurr hurr, we’re totally not ready to already drop the next version June 2022], but I imagine most people just rolled their eyes on that statement and moved along. Why ask for a rules survey if you aren’t considering major rule changes/cleanups?

Because a good portion of their customers will gobble that stuff up.

Remember a couple of weeks before 8th dropped, when GW said that they wanted feedback on the proposed rules? Blatant lie. But people were fawning over how GW had 'changed' and begging them to take their money.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'd encourage the people with 2+ years answers to resubmit in incognito mode. They updated the survey.
   
Made in de
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience






Nuremberg

Yeah, I was able to reply to the survey despite not playing in a long time. Though many of the questions did not apply to me in any case, as someone who is not currently playing. You can tell they didn't design it to allow people like me to continue because there's no "None of the above" option for various questions.

I'm sure it was all well intentioned anyway. I found the questions a bit poorly structured, too leading in my view. But I dunno how you can do it better in that survey format.

   
Made in de
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader




Bamberg / Erlangen

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Because a good portion of their customers will gobble that stuff up.

Remember a couple of weeks before 8th dropped, when GW said that they wanted feedback on the proposed rules? Blatant lie. But people were fawning over how GW had 'changed' and begging them to take their money.
Do we have reliable data about what feedback was sent back in which amount? And what was done with it?

Custom40k Homebrew - Alternate activation, huge customisation, support for all models from 3rd to 10th edition

Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition) 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

I wrote... a lot...

Spoiler:
Ok, from the top...

I like how you can make very different armies within the same Codex. It's good that, for example, Ultramarines and White Scars genuinely feel like different armies despite coming from the same book.

I think Crusade is a wonderful addition to the game, even if my Tyranids don't have any Crusade rules yet. :( People tend to dump on Crusade for being "more rules" and not being "narrative" based. I see them as a progression system that enhances the narrative of your campaign, a bit like Necromunda's progression system.

I've been playing Necromunda since it first came out in the 90's – it remains my fav GW game to this day – so the inclusion of a similar style system for 40k, with long-term goals for your army and a build-in sense of escalation, that's all great. That said, when the current edition of 40k started you should have included a Crusade section in that year's Chapter Approved with some 'get you by' rules for all the armies, so that they'd have something during the long wait to get a Codex. More on CA later…

There are a number of problems with the game that stand out and actually hinder my enjoyment. I'll go over them as briefly as I can.

Coherency/Hordes – Making the threshold for hordes 6+ models is far too low. It encourages units to stay at 5 or below, as when you hit that number 6, suddenly the entire unit has to shift how you deploy it. This becomes really weird when 5 Jetbikes can spread out, but 6 have to clump together because of the size of their bases. I acknowledge that any number chosen to be the starting point for what constitutes a horde – be it 10 models, 12 models, 20 models and so on – will be arbitrary. That's unavoidable. But 6? At least make it one above the standard squad size for most standard units in the game (10 models).

Morale – The morale system just punishes players as it attempts to abstract something in a way that essentially makes players feel worse, and makes them 'lose more' than they already were. I lost a bunch of guys to shooting, and now I get to lose even more of them! Worse, it bypasses every single method of causing casualties that exists in the game. Morale ignores toughness, saving throws, wounds, and damage and just outright kills things in a way more dangerous than anything else in the entire game (including Mortal Wounds!). A loss of morale should be disruptive – your units cannot hold objectives, launch assaults, perform actions, benefit from auras, etc. – not just lose more people!

Cover & Line of Sight – I'm not sure why it was decided that allowing players to target wing tips, tips of claws, antenna, banner poles, pointing fingers and gun barrels was a good idea, but it's just awful. The fact that an entire squad can be wiped out because the tip of one model's toe is sticking out, or a big monster can be shot off the table because you can see the very tip of a claw on his wing is crazy. Worse, with the interaction with terrain, the same wing tip or gun barrel can be sticking out the top of a piece of terrain but cannot be shot, but if it's to the side it can be, because in some cases terrain is infinitely high.

Overall the cover rules are massively complicated and in a lot of cases counter-intuitive. It's very hard to not be in LOS, there are arbitrary limits that make it impossible to hide big things even behind huge pieces of cover because the rules dictate what can be seen based on unit type rather than the terrain itself. Things out of LOS shouldn't be eligible to take damage, so if there's one guy in the open and the rest of his squad is completely hidden, then too bad for that one guy.

Some might say this would encourage movement of other units to block LOS to all but key models, but really, is that a bad thing? Positioning and manoeuvre don't matter in 40k outside of holding objectives and charge distances, so much so that a vehicle can fire all its guns no matter where they are through the tip of its front track sticking out of cover, and entire squads can vanish because the enemy got LOS to a gun barrel. If you had to really get LOS to the things you wanted to kill, and players had to really thing about the placement of their miniatures, the game would be richer for it.

Vehicle/monster durability – In the transition from 7th edition through to the current editions vehicles went through a radical change that removed Armour Values and damage charts in favour of a standard toughness/wounds/save system. Now the degrading statlines were a good choice – bravo on that abstraction – but sadly vehicles and monsters lost so much of their durability in the process.

The first issue is now everything can wound everything. As you always wound on at least a 6, you can 'fish' for 6's with any gun in your army, so even Lasguns can fell a mighty Warlord titan. Is it likely? No, but the fact that it can happen at all is what makes the system fail. But to be more specific, AV12 in the old system took a hit from an S8 Krak Missile on a 4+, and an AV14 Land Raider took a hit from a Krak Missile on a 6+. Now the Krak Missile wounds the same T8 Land Raider on a 4+. Where did the durability of the Land Raider go?

You made a big song and dance at the start of the last edition how characteristics could go above 10 now, yet you've not done so. Titans are T9 at most. Why aren't more vehicles higher than T8? This applies to monsters as well, where Tyranid players suffer from having their units deleted very quickly, especially as damage goes up.

And why in the Emperor's name are Rhinos more durable than Carnifexes?!?!

That brings us to lethality in general. 40k is an immensely lethal game, where you can have multiple units just deleted before they've even done a thing. Ranges have gone up, Rapid Fire now works at full range, and you made table sizes smaller because your standard boxes don't fit 1x1 tiles. Shooting at a unit often means that unit is gone. Close combat is so decisive that whatever's getting attacked is often annihilated before it can do anything, and in turn the unit that killed it gets annihilated right back. Players spend entire turns packing up the models that they only put onto the table 20 minutes prior, and those units often haven't moved. Recent GT results have had multiple instances of one side being wiped off the board in the first turn! There's no way you haven't noticed this. 40k is too lethal now. Things need to die less.

On top of this (almost literally) are the layers and layers of rules. When the Adeptus Mechanicus Codex came out I joked that I wouldn't be able to use it until I'd first completed a two-week correspondence course. There's just so much going on in these books, and you even add to them further with DLC campaign books that come out right after the Codex has come out. Like I said at the start, I like that it's possible to make multiple different distinct armies from within the same Codex, but it is getting out of hand.

And speaking of getting out of hand, stratagems have just gone wild. Generally speaking there are three types of strats that cause all sorts of problems: The first are the 'gotcha' reactionary strats, Transhuman Physiology being the poster child (but that horrible Cadian one being the latest example. These are ones you spring on your opponent after they have made a choice, heavily negating that choice for very little expenditure on your side. It's also a weird way of 'forging a narrative', having a unit of Marines (or Cadians) suddenly get tougher because you expended an abstracted strategic resource.

The second are strats that change the rules for specific units of pieces of equipment (the KFF one being a recent example, or the Exocrine's strat that affects only it). Why these just special rules aren't build into the unit itself? Why do they need to be an additional layer of rules that you sometimes use with an entire different rule mechanics? It's not adding anything to the game except more things to remember.

The third is equipment strats, with smoke launchers being the most egregious example. Wargear and equipment should be things you pay points for, not things that exist in the ether via strats.

Stratagems are a wonderful idea with terrible execution. There are too many of them (Death Guard alone have nearly 40 of them that fit into 7 broad categories!) and so many of them are so specific that they should just be special rules for the unit in question, or just regular equipment/wargear.

You're also needlessly complicating things with unit weapon options. It started with the Death Guard Plague Marine and Terminator weapon options (one model can have X, one model can have Y, one model can have Y and Z, one model can have B, but only on Tuesdays) and spread to the AdMech, Dark Eldar Wyches and most recently Sword Brethren. How is this helping new players when they see a block of unintuitive weapon options that require a master's degree in code breaking to decipher? Why can't it just be "May take X options from the Special Weapons list per Y models in the unit", and let people go from there? This goes doubly for characters, the Primaris Captain being the worst offender among them (can take a power fist, but only if it also takes a plasma pistol, unless you're a Dark Angel in which case you can take a bolter as well). It's --maddening--! Stop it!

The method of placing fortifications means that no one takes them. I'm sure you have come to realise that now. Their placement is so restrictive that you often can't place them. Please do something about this.

There are too many rules that all do the same thing in slightly different ways. A codified set of universal special rules, 2-3 pages, appearing in the rulebook and in the back of every Codex would clear so much up, and mean you could update single rules without needing to account for every instance where something similar pops up as a 'bespoke' rule. This goes doubly for weapon types, where you repeat the rules for melta weapons or plasma weapons overcharging or chainswords giving extra attacks over and over again.

Codify, streamline, and allow for scaling. If you have a rule that says "This unit can only take a maximum of 4 wounds per phase", instead have a general rule (eg. Insane Durability (X)), where 'X' equals the max amount of wounds a unit can take in a phase. That way you don't have to repeat it every time, and the 'X' value allows you to apply the same rule to multiple units across multiple books without having to have differently worded rules that all achieve the same basic effect. Overcharge X – for each unmodified To Hit roll equal to the X, the firer suffers 1 Mortal Wound (for plasma weapons and the like). Unwieldy X – Each time a To Hit roll is made with this weapon, subtract X from the roll (for power fists and the like). And so on and sort forth. Make things easier for everyone to understand.

I think that you've made great leaps and bounds in the way armies are structured in the shift away from 'soup' lists and whatnot, but I still think that since the start of 8th and into 9th the Forge Organisation Chart may as well not exist. In 3rd-7th the FOC imposed actual restrictions on your army building. You literally couldn't take more than what the slots allowed and you had to create your armies within that framework. Now you just spend some extra Command Points and bingo, I've got 5 more Heavy Support slots. Even the so-called 'Rule of 3' doesn't do much, as so many units have their own datasheets (ie. The Marine Gladiator is 3 different data sheets), so the fact that you can only take 3 of each (so 9 in total) doesn't mean much.

Bring back Imperial Guard platoons! And put their Officers back into Command Squads. Officers were originally put into Command Squads because the writers realised that they were far too squishy to be wandering around by themselves and that it made more thematic sense to have them as part of a military structure. When 8th came along, and command squads were torn apart in all armies, the Guard suffered from having their Officers booted into the cold with no support. And the platoon structure was removed, something that was added to make it feel more like an army and so out 6 Troops slots felt more worthwhile.

Missions/Secondary Objectives – It's weird that despite being called 'secondary objectives', so much of 40k play is geared around scoring these things. Secondary missions, as it turns out, are of primary concern. A big contributing factor to this is that the standard mission objectives are SO BORING. They're all the basically the same – a scattering of 4-8 objectives, always at ground level, and being worth the same in every mission. What on Holy Terra happened to the mission variety in 40k, like all the stuff we got in Chapter Approved books during 8th? And on that subject…

I said I'd come back to Chapter Approved, so here we are. Chapter Approved, for as long as I can remember, was about not only errata and FAQs but also adding more interesting ways to play the game, new army lists, quickly ideas, putting in new scenarios and generally enhancing the game experience. Now Chapter Approved is a sterile wasteland of tournament rules (and mostly reprinted core rules). The fun has gone from CA. The creativity. The narrative. It’s just all tournaments all the time.

And we shouldn't have to pay for points updates. That's just insane! They should be in the free errata FAQs. If you're including the new points alongside the Chapter Approved books because you're afraid that without them the CA book won't sell, make the CA book more appealing to everyone.

I think 40k's wonderful. There have been tons of games over the years that have come and gone, and none have ever managed to capture my imagination like 40k (and related games like Necromunda, the Dark Heresy RPG line and similar things). About the only thing my group plays as much as those three is old school 90's Warhammer Quest! But it is sad to watch the game I love so much disappear further and further into this quagmire of endless layered rules, pointless stratagems, boring mission design, unintuitive Codex/unit options, bad cover/LOS rules, needlessly punishing morale rules, horde rules that encourage minimum sized units, absurd levels of lethality, and Rhinos that are more durable than Carnifexes.

You've been at this a very long time now. You know you can do better.

(Also, unrelated to the above, your survey asks if people have played recently – a lot of the world's been in lockdown, literally unable to play for months if not over a year – please remember that!)

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in pt
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




In terms of giving feedback, it’s much better to be succinct and to-the-point.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

Granted, I only read over the rules for 9th, and they were written so wordy and poorly I gave up on them - I just couldn't get through the gobbledygook writing without a vein popping in my forehead.

Overall, I've had a tumultuous relation with 40K. Stopped playing after a bad experience in 2E, but continued collecting. Got back into playing at the tail end of 5th as I got my son interested, then petered out around 7th. Came back for 8th, and enjoyed that (especially using the indexes) - until Psychic Awakening.

So they've had me on an off again as a customer playing the game, but I've kept my eye on the lore and bought models - up until 9th. I just have finally gotten tired of the edition treadmill and downhill spiral for the rules. Last time I bought something 40K was when new starter box dropped - I bought a handful of the new necrons to reverse engineer into my 8E games. Nothing since then.

That's what I've ended up expressing to them in the survey, to the best of my ability. I play games like X-Wing, Bolt Action, Star Wars Legion, some Battletech and I've even returned to Car Wars. I'll play the latest-greatest 40K if they'll make it into a reasonable game, but for me the current version isn't in that state. I agree with almost all of HBMC's assessment for why I stopped around PA. For me, I make better use of the old rules and shun the current rules state.

It never ends well 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Yoyoyo wrote:
In terms of giving feedback, it’s much better to be succinct and to-the-point.
I wrestled with that, but in the end decided that we get one free text box, and I'm going to shoot my shot. I'd rather be thorough than cursory.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in jp
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd encourage the people with 2+ years answers to resubmit in incognito mode. They updated the survey.


Really? What did they change? I'm in the can't-get-games-locally club, and got booted after 2 questions.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



Derbyshire, UK

Interesting read HBMC. Here's what I put in the free text box:

Spoiler:

I have been a 40k fan since the first edition was released. Like many people I imagine, I have not yet actually played 9th edition yet due to Covid as I live with a vulnerable person, so I have not been doing in-person gaming, but I have watched a lot of streamed games and still continued to build armies and participate in forum discussions, so I think I have a reasonable understanding of the state of the game, albeit vicariously.

I did a fair amount of organised play (campaign weekends and tournaments) in the 4th-5th edition era but more recently it has all been home or club play.

I think currently lethality seems too high overall. Some of this is to do with LOS rules being too permissive. I preferred it when things like aerials, banners, gun barrels etc were ignored for LOS as it’s almost impossible to deny LOS currently with common terrain. I find the current LOS rules very immersion breaking, especially with vehicles and large monsters etc. I would prefer a return to some sort of facing for units like these. I hate the idea of tank sponsons being able to shoot through the body of the vehicle for instance. Aircraft also wouldn’t be nearly so problematic if they had to face their targets as well.

I feel it is unnecessary to cap to-hit penalties and bonuses at +/- 1 given that 6’s auto-hit. There is not currently enough difference between a unit shooting at an easy target (static, in the open, short range) and a difficult one (in-cover, long range, moving). This means that effective manoeuvre seems devalued. Allowing modifiers to stack (while keeping natural 6’s auto-hit and natural 1’s auto-miss) would allow a wider range of outcomes and create more decision points.

I would prefer morale to cause suppression, pinning, fall back etc, to degrade units’ effectiveness without just being more casualties.

Actions are a great addition in 9th. I like the fact that units can contribute to the mission in ways other than killing stuff. It feels really cinematic to have a unit trying to hack a data terminal, plant demolition charges or send a vital message while the rest of your army keeps the enemy occupied.

Crusade seems like a fantastic way to play and is exactly the sort of thing I want out of the game.

On the whole I like CP and strategems, but I think there are too many of the latter, specifically there are many which only affect one unit which should just be a datasheet ability or a points-based upgrade. This does seem to have improved somewhat since late 8th edition though, and the detachment system in 9th is a big improvement over 8th.
I love the way every faction is now getting to benefit from the variety of sub-factions and customisation that marines have enjoyed for years, and especially the custom sub-factions traits so that you army can really be “your dudes”.

I do think that in some ways there are too many layers of rules with factions, subfactions, character upgrades, strategems etc which can be overwhelming. I have been building a Mechanicus army for when I get to play in person again and the number of overlapping auras, abilities and buffs to remember seems quite intimidating, even as someone who’s been immersed in 40k for over 30 years. I can only imagine it must be difficult for new players. On the other hand I like having this level of detail available as an option.


Obviously after submitting it I thought of a bunch of other stuff I wish I had mentioned.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 posermcbogus wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'd encourage the people with 2+ years answers to resubmit in incognito mode. They updated the survey.


Really? What did they change? I'm in the can't-get-games-locally club, and got booted after 2 questions.


It basically carries into most of the other questions from what I can tell and gives you the free form box at the end.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Somewhere in Canada

 Sim-Life wrote:
 Thadin wrote:
Huh. I only got prompted for two questions.
1- How long has it been since you played 40k?
A year or more
2 - Why did you stop?
Current game rules don't appeal to me

And... that was it. How's everyone getting all these damn questions? I need to make my super important opinion heard!


They need to know you'll play the game regardless of how gak it is. They want apologists and drones giving input, not people who actually have standards.


The real reason is that if it's been more than a year since you played, you probably can't actually offer any worthwhile, experience-based feedback on the current edition. If I recall correctly, the SM and Cron dexes came out in October of last year- which would mean technically, you might be able to offer feedback on playing with those dexes for a couple of weeks, but beyond that, you're just a rules analyst/ Internet echo chamber junkie/ armchair quarterback.

While I frequently disagree with Sim, I'd never accuse the dude of being stupid, so I would assume he thought of this and just decided to sh!tpost anyway?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/05 00:15:23


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





PenitentJake wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:
 Thadin wrote:
Huh. I only got prompted for two questions.
1- How long has it been since you played 40k?
A year or more
2 - Why did you stop?
Current game rules don't appeal to me

And... that was it. How's everyone getting all these damn questions? I need to make my super important opinion heard!


They need to know you'll play the game regardless of how gak it is. They want apologists and drones giving input, not people who actually have standards.


The real reason is that if it's been more than a year since you played, you probably can't actually offer any worthwhile, experience-based feedback on the current edition. If I recall correctly, the SM and Cron dexes came out in October of last year- which would mean technically, you might be able to offer feedback on playing with those dexes for a couple of weeks, but beyond that, you're just a rules analyst/ Internet echo chamber junkie/ armchair quarterback.

While I frequently disagree with Sim, I'd never accuse the dude of being stupid, so I would assume he thought of this and just decided to sh!tpost anyway?


There is other feedback that would be useful to collect from players like that, especially if they are still very active in community where they would see the survey.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

pgmason wrote:
Here's what I put in the free text box
I like what you wrote. I wish I'd thought've Unit Actions, as I think that's a great system that could be expanded upon - Cultists performing rituals, Priests 'cleansing' areas of the battlefield, Necrons beinging arcane technology back online, and so on.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
 
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