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**Wha-Mu-077**

2+ Leman Russ
But no 2+ Baneblade.

**tneva82**

Sasori wrote:
This is pretty nice, I'm quite happy with this update for the most part.

Ad Mech getting hit by points increases across the board and limited flyers I think this update will finally dethrone them.

The Dark Eldar seemed a much lighter touch than I was expecting, but we will see. The Aircraft nerf doesn't really affect them. We'll see if this update just means they stop taking raiders and move fully into venoms.

Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

The Buffs to Necrons is fantastic. Having Core on all of that opens up so many things!

Elegant? Typical crude bandaid solution. Don't fix, just limit damage it does.

**Gregor Samsa**

Warhammer 40k is a thirty year old board game guys. All of these problems are monsters of their own creation. That ork codex just came out and they're already changing the course. These fixes indicate deep, deep flaws in the fundamental design principles of the game itself. Not sure why I have to be villain for pointing out that this looks like a giant circus.

**Wha-Mu-077**

On balance, if they were gonna make it so Buggies were capped at 3, I'd have rather have seen the unit size changed from 1-3 to just 1.

Same result, bit less arbitrary.

**Sasori**

Jidmah wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

That probably would have worked too. I thought this would be a more pleasing solutions for Ork players since they can still take the units, but without a points hike.

I think no matter what option GW went with, people would complain about it.

**Jidmah**

the_scotsman wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

Did they?

I mean, 2 wazboms, 3 squigbuggies, 3 scrapjets, 2 dragstas and 2 KBBs where does that get you?

Also, we did get the new army of renown which make the buggies defensively basically the perfect machine.

From my experience, into a traffic jam that doesn't allow to cross the board or line up shots.

But the point is that you cannot put kustom jobs on units with multiple buggies in them, plus it doesn't scale with game size at all. That's not elegant by any means.

**Oguhmek**

But there is no benefit to taking units of multiple buggies anyway, right? On the contrary, it's mostly drawbacks (morale etc.)

Did Orks really need this nerf?

**Jidmah**

Sasori wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

That probably would have worked too. I thought this would be a more pleasing solutions for Ork players since they can still take the units, but without a points hike.

I think no matter what option GW went with, people would complain about it.

I think most orks were in favor of knocking out the buggy spam. They just didn't do it in a good way because it interacts badly with other rules in the army.

You literally have to decide between running 2/3 buggies of one kind OR getting a kustom job.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oguhmek wrote:
Did Orks really need this nerf?

Squigbuggies did need that nerf... other buggies? Nope.

**Eldarsif**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
On balance, if they were gonna make it so Buggies were capped at 3, I'd have rather have seen the unit size changed from 1-3 to just 1.

Same result, bit less arbitrary.

not the same result as currently you can have 1-3 in one slot instead of 3 taking separate slots. Capping it at 1 would just kill buggy lists as you'd easily just fill up the slots with 1 each.

**Gadzilla666**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
2+ Leman Russ
But no 2+ Baneblade.

Yeah, that's not cool. Still no Orders for them either.

**the_scotsman**

Jidmah wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Jidmah wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

Did they?

I mean, 2 wazboms, 3 squigbuggies, 3 scrapjets, 2 dragstas and 2 KBBs where does that get you?

Also, we did get the new army of renown which make the buggies defensively basically the perfect machine.

From my experience, into a traffic jam that doesn't allow to cross the board or line up shots.

But the point is that you cannot put kustom jobs on units with multiple buggies in them, plus it doesn't scale with game size at all. That's not elegant by any means.

Maybe.

My ork speed freek list, which does not include many copies of the same buggy, is basically unaffected by the change. My drukhari list, depending on the setup, only managed to go up about 40 points. It seems like at least some effort was put in to insulate varied, casual lists from the effects of the changes while primarily impacting the highly competitive lists. That's a good thing, even if the solution wasn't perfect.

**Kanluwen**

Ohmygodohmygodohmygod.

ORDERS FOR EVERYONE!

**the_scotsman**

Oguhmek wrote:
But there is no benefit to taking units of multiple buggies anyway, right? On the contrary, it's mostly drawbacks (morale etc.)

Did Orks really need this nerf?

I think it is worth noting that the infamous tournament list being discussed recently did include squigbuggies, skrapjets, dragstas and I believe KBBs, at least most of which were in units of more than 1.

**Jidmah**

Eldarsif wrote:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
On balance, if they were gonna make it so Buggies were capped at 3, I'd have rather have seen the unit size changed from 1-3 to just 1.

Same result, bit less arbitrary.

not the same result as currently you can have 1-3 in one slot instead of 3 taking separate slots. Capping it at 1 would just kill buggy lists as you'd easily just fill up the slots with 1 each.

A patrol and two outriders can support 10 single buggies plus some bikers or koptas. Or at least could. No more!

**Daedalus81**

Gregor Samsa wrote:
GW in full-blown panic mode these days.

"most play-tested edition ever"

Full blown panic mode. Love the spin.

**the_scotsman**

eh.

Of the 3 armies that got nerfs, I'm the least worried about the Orks dropping below 50%.

We still have yet to even see what people do with the new army of renown rules, which let me remind folks, turns the defensive profile of buggies to:

-T6
-4+ 5++
-subtract 1 from damage for any <S7 weaponry

In one man's humble opinion, that's still a pretty spicy meatball.>

**Jidmah**

the_scotsman wrote:
Oguhmek wrote:
But there is no benefit to taking units of multiple buggies anyway, right? On the contrary, it's mostly drawbacks (morale etc.)

Did Orks really need this nerf?

I think it is worth noting that the infamous tournament list being discussed recently did include squigbuggies, skrapjets, dragstas and I believe KBBs, at least most of which were in units of more than 1.

This is the list he was running:

Spoiler:

Not disagreeing, just adding information.

**bullyboy**

Jidmah wrote:
Eldarsif wrote:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
On balance, if they were gonna make it so Buggies were capped at 3, I'd have rather have seen the unit size changed from 1-3 to just 1.

Same result, bit less arbitrary.

not the same result as currently you can have 1-3 in one slot instead of 3 taking separate slots. Capping it at 1 would just kill buggy lists as you'd easily just fill up the slots with 1 each.

A patrol and two outriders can support 10 single buggies plus some bikers or koptas. Or at least could. No more!

hey, you can still take 15 buggies and it only fills 1 Outrider detachment....CPs saved, bonus!

**Daedalus81**

Jidmah wrote:
Sasori wrote:
Ork nerfs seem like an elegant way to handle the problem, without points nerfs. We'll have to see if that's a enough.

They... just completely killed off the winning list? I wouldn't call that "elegant", especially since it effectively prevents the use of kustom jobs, one of the most liked ork mechanic of 8th.

They could just have made buggy units 1 model only for the same effect and cause less collateral damage.

I think it is a little hamfisted, but they can revisit it in 3 months. It will be interesting to see the lists now.

**the_scotsman**

Sorry - am I misreading then? I might be misreading.

**Jidmah**

the_scotsman wrote:
eh.

Of the 3 armies that got nerfs, I'm the least worried about the Orks dropping below 50%.

We still have yet to even see what people do with the new army of renown rules, which let me remind folks, turns the defensive profile of buggies to:

-T6
-4+ 5++
-subtract 1 from damage for any <S7 weaponry

In one man's humble opinion, that's still a pretty spicy meatball.>

Try building a list from that army with the new restrictions.
You essentially lose access to almost all the units that make buggies work and that you can no longer have more than two planes.

**the_scotsman**

Yep, I'm misreading, I thought the list was "1 unit of 3" it's actually just written a bit unusually and he was running 10 singleton buggies.

**Oguhmek**

Yeah ok so what they want to stop with this new rule are the single model units then.

Alright I understand that, but to be honest, that list doesn't look very OP to me.

**Castozor**

Interesting idea of them to do a balance change like this. I think it could be a good idea, but I find this first implementation rather lackluster. Ork change seems drastic and with the release of the new TS you'd think this would be the place to finally give my DG rhinos and predators DR as well but I guess no such luck this time around.

**Jidmah**

bullyboy wrote:
hey, you can still take 15 buggies and it only fills 1 Outrider detachment....CPs saved, bonus!

That only works in theory

Squig buggies were spammable because they didn't need to go anywhere, that isn't true for any of the others. 9-10 is a hard cap for buggies (also countring wartrikes) in my experience, any more will end in a traffic jam that will cause you to lose the game.

**bullyboy**

Ork lists can still run 2x buggies per slot (I can see where 3 would make movement difficult, plus risk of morale, etc), 2 planes, plus extras. I don't see this as too much of an issue since most armies are restricted to 3 of a kind anyway (Orks just have to put them in a single unit). It's not the most elegant solution, but if it drops that list from being so obnoxious to play against, that's good for now. Revisit in a few months. I don't have a problem of spammers getting hit with rules adjustments.

**LunarSol**

I overall like the Ork change. Rule of 3 is as much something good for balance as it is for giving players reasonable purchase insurance. 9x of each buggies was always going to turn into an awful investment to breed resentment and I'm glad to see it was done in a way to keep the purchases reasonable, without limiting Ork Fast Attack entirely. The real problem was that it was allowed to fester this way for too many years before biting the bullet.

**Daedalus81**

Jidmah wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
hey, you can still take 15 buggies and it only fills 1 Outrider detachment....CPs saved, bonus!

That only works in theory

Squig buggies were spammable because they didn't need to go anywhere, that isn't true for any of the others. 9-10 is a hard cap for buggies (also countring wartrikes) in my experience, any more will end in a traffic jam that will cause you to lose the game.

A deadly traffic jam with Freebootas though.

**bullyboy**

Jidmah wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
hey, you can still take 15 buggies and it only fills 1 Outrider detachment....CPs saved, bonus!

That only works in theory

Squig buggies were spammable because they didn't need to go anywhere, that isn't true for any of the others. 9-10 is a hard cap for buggies (also countring wartrikes) in my experience, any more will end in a traffic jam that will cause you to lose the game.

Yeah, I was just making a point, definitely don't see practical side of it. My buddy currently has 2-3 scrapjets, 2 squigbuggies, 2 dragsters, 2 KBB, 2 dakkajets in his list so he will now have to decide about squadron or replacing.

Perhaps they should have just limited it to 3 max of each buggy, regardless of in squadron or individual (people can squadron if they want to save CP, otherwise not). They're a little too big footprint wise to have to stay in coherency, especially with current table size and typical tournament terrain.

**Third_Age_of_Baggz**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
2+ Leman Russ
But no 2+ Baneblade.

I know...right!? What a missed opportunity.