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 Aenar wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

Agreed, it just feels right.

There are many many many issues with the game, 2W marines is not one of them, in fact marines are becoming more and more less important as the edition evolves with new factions.

Which is a good thing, compared to the last year of 8th ed and first 6 months of 9th when 40K felt more like HH 2.0 with marines vs marines and little to nothing else.

Prediction, Tau will absolutely spank marines with shooting, absolutely no issue at all.

Again, as it should be. It would be worrying if Tau spanked anyone else in melee, but since shooting is the only way to go for them it would be worrying if they didn't. Right now they don't and the faction is basically unplayable.

What I meant was, they will do it, in just one turn... Which they shouldn't do, they should hurt, but I think they will 1 turn steam roll, which ruins the game.

If I might approach this from a slightly different angle, for those saying Marines should have 2 wounds, what problem is this change intended to solve?

One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

What is the abstraction of an Armor Save meant to represent? What is a failed armor save?

If a shot hitting the lense/joints is related to rend then should AP0 weapons not harm marines meaningfully?

In the lore, there are plenty of times lasguns drop Marines (usually CSM). Perhaps that's the REAL reason why CSM have one wound still...

 Aenar wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

Agreed, it just feels right.

Does it feel right when it takes 40 Guardsmen to take a single Marine down in CC? It sure doesn't feel right to me.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

Okay, but this is a tabletop game. Not a porn magazine for Marine players.

Hence, it seems strange to increase Marine durability specifically against weapons that are already garbage at killing Marines and also among the least useful and flexible in the entire game. In contrast, every D2 weapon (including stuff like Heavy Bolters) won't even notice the increased durability of Marines.

From a game perspective, it seems like a very poor solution to a problem that wasn't much of an issue in the first place.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:What I meant was, they will do it, in just one turn... Which they shouldn't do, they should hurt, but I think they will 1 turn steam roll, which ruins the game.

In one turn it would be broken, I hope not. But in general (i.e: Tau being better at shooting than Marines, and more generally everyone else) that's how it should be supposed to work imho.

Insectum7 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

Agreed, it just feels right.

Does it feel right when it takes 40 Guardsmen to take a single Marine down in CC? It sure doesn't feel right to me.

That's an issue that lies in the Guardsmen camp, so in the IG codex.
Then again, if it takes 40 Guardsmen in cc to kill a Marine one could also argue that it's not that crazy (lore, ...) and you should try to kill him in a different, more efficient way (shooting, psychic, ...).

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

I suspect that, if anything, it's more to do with the stuff putting out gobs of shots and modifying armor than Lasguns. Space Marines dying to Lasguns isn't a huge issue, especially seeing as how you needed an entire squad unloading in doubletap range to average a single kill, they weren't doing a whole lot of killing to begin with. The dice also aren't representing literal single shots, guardsmen doubletapping are doing things like burst firing and dumping on full auto hoping to find a weapon spot, not sniping lenses. If you're just looking to mission kill a marine (remove them as a battlefield combatant, not necessarily actually kill them), that's probably much easier. As an analogy, one can look at a modern tank, most weapons aren't going to penetrate the armor and destroy the tank or kill the crew, but almost any meaningful impact by anything above small arms scale can destroy tracks, the gun barrel, optics, running gear or wheels, etc. A Marine failing a save and taking a round may not necessarily have taken a magic lasgun bolt through the lense, but instead may have had their optics or weapon destroyed or a leg servo critically jammed or maybe the powerpack got hit and damaged, resulting in that Marine having to be left behind for the moment.

Likewise, Let's not forget, when 40k was originally created, Marines were wounded by lasguns on 4's and only saved on 5's against them. Getting buffed to being wounded on 5's and saving on 3's (literally trippling their resistance to Lasguns) was the answer to them being particularly weak against such weapons. W2 just makes weapons like lasguns ultimately a waste of everyone's time to bother even rolling for much of the time.

Against something like a Heavy Bolter however, that makes a much greater impact on the tabletop, that's where you really see the W2 shine.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

What is the abstraction of an Armor Save meant to represent? What is a failed armor save?

If a shot hitting the lense/joints is related to rend then should AP0 weapons not harm marines meaningfully?

In the lore, there are plenty of times lasguns drop Marines (usually CSM). Perhaps that's the REAL reason why CSM have one wound still...

An unarmoured marine shouldn't be killed by a lasgun shot unless it was a headshot or hit multiple key organs with one shot, they should just keep on coming, so armour save shouldn't have 'that' huge of an impact.

Also, I know people don't want to let lore impact tabletop too much, but it does in the way other factions work... Imagine Orks or tyranids being awful in combat because it was 'for the good of the game'. Marines should be tough, and should have multiple wounds. As I said previously, everything should be balanced around that.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

What is the abstraction of an Armor Save meant to represent? What is a failed armor save?

If a shot hitting the lense/joints is related to rend then should AP0 weapons not harm marines meaningfully?

In the lore, there are plenty of times lasguns drop Marines (usually CSM). Perhaps that's the REAL reason why CSM have one wound still...

An unarmoured marine shouldn't be killed by a lasgun shot unless it was a headshot or hit multiple key organs with one shot, they should just keep on coming, so armour save shouldn't have 'that' huge of an impact.

Also, I know people don't want to let lore impact tabletop too much, but it does in the way other factions work... Imagine Orks or tyranids being awful in combat because it was 'for the good of the game'. Marines should be tough, and should have multiple wounds. As I said previously, everything should be balanced around that.

Good news! Only one in three hits of a Lasgun actually wounds a Marine-and that doesn't even mean dead. It just means combat inoperative for the fight.

I do think it is important to remember that these, most definitely, aren't single shots. An AK-47 has a Rounds Per Minute of 600. We don't know how long a round is in 40k, but for this, let's assume a minute. We can also assume they won't fire full auto the entire time. Even if we cut this down to 50 rounds fired per minute at the marine, it would end up being 900 rounds from a lasgun to take out a Marine, and only if you count what hits.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I do think it is important to remember that these, most definitely, aren't single shots. An AK-47 has a Rounds Per Minute of 600. We don't know how long a round is in 40k, but for this, let's assume a minute. We can also assume they won't fire full auto the entire time. Even if we cut this down to 50 rounds fired per minute at the marine, it would end up being 900 rounds from a lasgun to take out a Marine, and only if you count what hits.

A DKoK lasgun is specifically not semi-automatic, I bet a fair few lasgun types are the same. So no, this doesn't work specifically for a lasgun. Shurikan catapults etc are up for debate, lasgun is not, and the few that can go full auto do not last long ammo wise.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
One lasgun shot dropping a marine. That shouldn't happen unless it has some gnarly rend ability that simulates a pin point shot going through the helmet lens. That should happen once in a thousand. Basically, that is the problem it is meant to solve.

Something like a sniper rifle lasgun which can cause a 6 to wound to deal a mortal wound and then the marine also fails its armor save. You know, something like that would be how you'd probably want to model that mechanically.

Oh look!

 Insectum7 wrote:
Does it feel right when it takes 40 Guardsmen to take a single Marine down in CC? It sure doesn't feel right to me.

This is only a problem because the guard codex hasn't been updated to 9th yet. The lethality of every army has been jacked waaay up, not just marines, so the guard are just lagging behind. If we nerf marines, then we need to nerf DE, AdMech, DG, Bugs, Orks, and every codex since the start of 9th.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't know what this "C-tier" blabber is all about, but it sounds like gobledygook.
/snip
If you're trying to make an argument that marines should be further buffed you're deranged.

Art of War (Richard Siegler & Nick Nanavati) on current faction rankings, specifically where they start talking about tyranids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrkMF9BHVAs. Your local meta might be different, but that's not an army problem, that's the players not being able to maximize the potential of the Army. And in case you don't know, Richard and Nick are a couple of the best players in the world (probaby not *the* top 2, but probably in the top 20)

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

Agreed, it just feels right.

Does it feel right when it takes 40 Guardsmen to take a single Marine down in CC? It sure doesn't feel right to me.

Baseline, sure? Take a big, hulking, mutated plague marine, trundling forward inexorably, a large number of the terrified guardsmen refusing even to swing, unable to even penetrate through the noxious stench surrounding him...

But then add in a fanatical priest, chanting hymns of how they are the soldiers of the emperor, none can stand before their will, the glory of the imperium commands them to take up the fight...now that's 20 guardsmen.

Add in a grizzled veteran sergeant unsheathing his power saber - now 14 can get the job done.

An officer calls on the vox, and the comms trooper trembles for a moment but then his relayed command shouts loud and clear: "FIX BAYONETS, MEN! CHARGE!" and now the 10-man squad brings down 1 and wounds another plague marine.

this is the gameplay fantasy that is what the Imperial Guard is about: Normal humans, who on their own would be overwhelmed and destroyed, defeating super-human beings threats through discipline and fanaticism.

Now, is this modeled perfectly in game?

No, sergeant upgrades are much too expensive, honestly I think if GW really wants to make 'upgrades only at 5pts or more' then you'd have to have all the basic sgt upgrades maintain the bonus attack of the chainsword, or you'd need to up veteran sergeants to WS3+ or something. Also, the "Fix Bayonets" order is wonky, and doesnt work on the charge for some reason? Despite being called "Fix Bayonets"?

The solution to make this work better is: How about we update the faction "Imperial Guard" and not go back, and once again un-update the faction "Space Marines, all of them, all 16 god damn codexes of them."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This example always seems to ignore the fact that 'crappy troops whose capability is multiplied by supporting characters/officers/etc" IS what guard are kind of about. That's been their shtick. It's like demonstrating the Drukhari are underpowered by showing how they can get carved to gak by people if they attack them first. Having a speed advantage and getting to get the first slap in is the drukhari thing.

Or GSC - evalute any of our gak and ignore the fact that we get various ambush bonuses, and we'll look even MORE pathetic, lol.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

An unarmoured marine shouldn't be killed by a lasgun shot unless it was a headshot or hit multiple key organs with one shot, they should just keep on coming, so armour save shouldn't have 'that' huge of an impact.

Well, here's where you're wrong.

A Kantrael-pattern lasgun (Cadians use this pattern) pews 19 megajoules of energy per the 3rd edition guard codex (that has not since been retconned afaik). The kinetic energy of a Barnes 700 grain .50 BMG round (you know, the types of rounds a .50 caliber machine gun puts out that are basically one step down from a modern autocannon) is 18,942 joules.

In other words, whilst the delivery and therefore nature of the damage is different, the amount of energy dumped into a Space Marine by a single lasbolt is roughly equivalent to shooting him with a .50 caliber sniper rifle.

It is also worth noting that the Armageddon Steel Legion uses a higher-powered Lasgun that is only semi-automatic to punch through orks at very close range (given that they disembark from Chimeras typically). So... yeah.

man I am never disappointed when I unhide a unit post. This is the most glorious um ackhshually I have seen posted on this forum in months. Thank you for lighting up my afternoon.

 the_scotsman wrote:
man I am never disappointed when I unhide a unit post. This is the most glorious um ackhshually I have seen posted on this forum in months. Thank you for lighting up my afternoon.

a pleasure to provide!

 the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Aenar wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Marines having higher BS and WS, S, T, W makes sense. It's how they should be. Everything else can be debated, such as the prevalence of D2 weapons, or their point cost or anything else, but the now base stats of marines makes perfect sense and power armour should not give that buff to anything but marines.

Agreed, it just feels right.

Does it feel right when it takes 40 Guardsmen to take a single Marine down in CC? It sure doesn't feel right to me.

Baseline, sure? Take a big, hulking, mutated plague marine, trundling forward inexorably, a large number of the terrified guardsmen refusing even to swing, unable to even penetrate through the noxious stench surrounding him...

But then add in a fanatical priest, chanting hymns of how they are the soldiers of the emperor, none can stand before their will, the glory of the imperium commands them to take up the fight...now that's 20 guardsmen.

Add in a grizzled veteran sergeant unsheathing his power saber - now 14 can get the job done.

An officer calls on the vox, and the comms trooper trembles for a moment but then his relayed command shouts loud and clear: "FIX BAYONETS, MEN! CHARGE!" and now the 10-man squad brings down 1 and wounds another plague marine.

this is the gameplay fantasy that is what the Imperial Guard is about: Normal humans, who on their own would be overwhelmed and destroyed, defeating super-human beings threats through discipline and fanaticism.

Now, is this modeled perfectly in game?

No, sergeant upgrades are much too expensive, honestly I think if GW really wants to make 'upgrades only at 5pts or more' then you'd have to have all the basic sgt upgrades maintain the bonus attack of the chainsword, or you'd need to up veteran sergeants to WS3+ or something. Also, the "Fix Bayonets" order is wonky, and doesnt work on the charge for some reason? Despite being called "Fix Bayonets"?

The solution to make this work better is: How about we update the faction "Imperial Guard" and not go back, and once again un-update the faction "Space Marines, all of them, all 16 god damn codexes of them."

Nice speech. So my takeaway is that you're comfortable with a paradigm where you can spend a whole bunch of extra effort and points on a Guardsman squad. . . and the result will reward the attacking Guard player with ONE kill. Great job! I'm sure Guard players will really appreciate the flavor you bring to their army.

 the_scotsman wrote:

This example always seems to ignore the fact that 'crappy troops whose capability is multiplied by supporting characters/officers/etc" IS what guard are kind of about. That's been their shtick. It's like demonstrating the Drukhari are underpowered by showing how they can get carved to gak by people if they attack them first. Having a speed advantage and getting to get the first slap in is the drukhari thing.

Or GSC - evalute any of our gak and ignore the fact that we get various ambush bonuses, and we'll look even MORE pathetic, lol.

Unaided or aided, these same units sure used to be able to do a lot more damage than they appear to do now.

And how about Marines themselves? It currently takes 9 Tactical Marines to drop a single Marine in CC. I mean, they just got their codex, right? These hyper-elite marines resorting to a slow can-on-can pummeling that goes basically nowhere?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

An unarmoured marine shouldn't be killed by a lasgun shot unless it was a headshot or hit multiple key organs with one shot, they should just keep on coming, so armour save shouldn't have 'that' huge of an impact.

Well, here's where you're wrong.

A Kantrael-pattern lasgun (Cadians use this pattern) pews 19 megajoules of energy per the 3rd edition guard codex (that has not since been retconned afaik). The kinetic energy of a Barnes 700 grain .50 BMG round (you know, the types of rounds a .50 caliber machine gun puts out that are basically one step down from a modern autocannon) is 18,942 joules.

In other words, whilst the delivery and therefore nature of the damage is different, the amount of energy dumped into a Space Marine by a single lasbolt is roughly equivalent to shooting him with a .50 caliber sniper rifle.

It is also worth noting that the Armageddon Steel Legion uses a higher-powered Lasgun that is only semi-automatic to punch through orks at very close range (given that they disembark from Chimeras typically). So... yeah.

Not to "Um ackshually" the um ackshually, but wouldn't 19 MJ be ~1000x the energy of a 19kJ shot? (Also, wasn't there something about Thules as a unit in the 3e dex? Or am I remembering the old MFM/Primer?)

 waefre_1 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

An unarmoured marine shouldn't be killed by a lasgun shot unless it was a headshot or hit multiple key organs with one shot, they should just keep on coming, so armour save shouldn't have 'that' huge of an impact.

Well, here's where you're wrong.

A Kantrael-pattern lasgun (Cadians use this pattern) pews 19 megajoules of energy per the 3rd edition guard codex (that has not since been retconned afaik). The kinetic energy of a Barnes 700 grain .50 BMG round (you know, the types of rounds a .50 caliber machine gun puts out that are basically one step down from a modern autocannon) is 18,942 joules.

In other words, whilst the delivery and therefore nature of the damage is different, the amount of energy dumped into a Space Marine by a single lasbolt is roughly equivalent to shooting him with a .50 caliber sniper rifle.

It is also worth noting that the Armageddon Steel Legion uses a higher-powered Lasgun that is only semi-automatic to punch through orks at very close range (given that they disembark from Chimeras typically). So... yeah.

Not to "Um ackshually" the um ackshually, but wouldn't 19 MJ be ~1000x the energy of a 19kJ shot? (Also, wasn't there something about Thules as a unit in the 3e dex? Or am I remembering the old MFM/Primer?)

I don't remember it that well, but good point. I just remember rehashing this same argument on an old, different forum (where the .50 and the lasgun were equated by people far smarter than me). Nothing like regurgitating the same arguments time and time again because 40k's lore writers can't be consistent, but what else will ya do with your time, eh?

I do remember the megathule thing as well.

Well, we could always complain about that time the FW writers gave the Leman Russ worse armor than some WW2 tanks...

 waefre_1 wrote:
Well, we could always complain about that time the FW writers gave the Leman Russ worse armor than some WW2 tanks...

Spoiler:

I actually don't care about that, handwavium superspacesteel RHA and all that, but it's always kind of funny watching some of the more anal treadheads get upset over that XD

I think the bigger issue is the cutaway illustrations that show it would be impossible to enter through or occupy the turret hatch because the gun breach fills the whole thing.

 waefre_1 wrote:
Well, we could always complain about that time the FW writers gave the Leman Russ worse armor than some WW2 tanks...

Spoiler:

I actually don't care about that, handwavium superspacesteel RHA and all that, but it's always kind of funny watching some of the more anal treadheads get upset over that XD

I always said "just imagine how gakky Space Marine Land Raiders must be to have the same armor as a KV-1"

Depowers everything in the setting and I love it.

Bless their well-meaning little hearts, but the writers probably should've just made up units for it all and left the interiors to our imaginations.

Edit: Except for that one Baneblade cutaway with the cute little spider-servoskull running around, that one is peak 40k.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:
Well, we could always complain about that time the FW writers gave the Leman Russ worse armor than some WW2 tanks...

Spoiler:

I actually don't care about that, handwavium superspacesteel RHA and all that, but it's always kind of funny watching some of the more anal treadheads get upset over that XD

I think the bigger issue is the cutaway illustrations that show it would be impossible to enter through or occupy the turret hatch because the gun breach fills the whole thing.

Now we know why that Commissar protruding from the Leman Russ hatch needed his driver to get him within a sword's length of the enemy - clearly the poor man had no legs of his own!

^What? He just sits bowlegged astride the Battlecannon, of course!

 Insectum7 wrote:
^What? He just sits bowlegged astride the Battlecannon, of course!

Then I really don't wanna know what that battle cannon is firing... If the lasgun is firing 90 megajoules, Then that commissar must have tactical nukes for gonads...

 Insectum7 wrote:
^What? He just sits bowlegged astride the Battlecannon, of course!

One of my first ork conversions was some boyz, a set of goff rokkaz, and a Vindicator. I've got Ozzy Orkbourne sitting astride the cannon, which of course thanks to "The 40k Standing While Pooping Stance" looks perfect with no alteration to the metal mini!

 the_scotsman wrote:
man I am never disappointed when I unhide a unit post.

"Tell me you've got someone on ignore without telling me you've got someone on ignore."