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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
man I am never disappointed when I unhide a unit post.
"Tell me you've got someone on ignore without telling me you've got someone on ignore."


He mentioned he ignored me in the very thread he did it in because he didn't like that I preferred 4th instead of 5th or something after I asked him his opinion on how something was in 4th.

I forget the details
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut



Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

I like how the weapon which has been referred to as a flashlight since 3rd edition is used as why marines need an extra wound vs every other weapon

Fanfiction is not an argument
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
man I am never disappointed when I unhide a unit post.
"Tell me you've got someone on ignore without telling me you've got someone on ignore."


He mentioned he ignored me in the very thread he did it in because he didn't like that I preferred 4th instead of 5th or something after I asked him his opinion on how something was in 4th.

I forget the details


Don't feel bad, I think by now I'm on almost everyone's ignore list or one reason or other.

I'm basically just a ghost at this point.

To anyone who hasn't yet ignored me: Wooooooooooo

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




2W Marines, T5 Orks and other defensive changes are a direct response to the lethality creep of the core rules that started in 6th edition and culminated in 8th.

6th edition increased the weight of fire of many weapons with the changes to twin-linked from being reroll misses to double shots. Even with this weight of fire creep that began, the average tactical or terminator still felt reasonably durable with 1 wound and that is largely to do with armor.

8th edition completely changed the way armor works, many weapons that the marine would normally shrug off due to the 3+ save or terminator 2+ save now modifies their armor save roll. The importance of an invulnerable save has never been higher due to this change. -1 AP turned marine armor into Tempestus armor, and -2 turned them into guardsman. Gone were the days of 3+ vs all but plasma, melta, or other deticated anti-tank firepower.

If you want to revert back to 1w marines, then we need to revert back to all or nothing armor saves. Right now we're getting more and more ways to "ignore invul saves" which functionally works the same as the old AP system, its sad.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Tittliewinks22 wrote:
2W Marines, T5 Orks and other defensive changes are a direct response to the lethality creep of the core rules that started in 6th edition and culminated in 8th.

6th edition increased the weight of fire of many weapons with the changes to twin-linked from being reroll misses to double shots. Even with this weight of fire creep that began, the average tactical or terminator still felt reasonably durable with 1 wound and that is largely to do with armor.

8th edition completely changed the way armor works, many weapons that the marine would normally shrug off due to the 3+ save or terminator 2+ save now modifies their armor save roll. The importance of an invulnerable save has never been higher due to this change. -1 AP turned marine armor into Tempestus armor, and -2 turned them into guardsman. Gone were the days of 3+ vs all but plasma, melta, or other deticated anti-tank firepower.

If you want to revert back to 1w marines, then we need to revert back to all or nothing armor saves. Right now we're getting more and more ways to "ignore invul saves" which functionally works the same as the old AP system, its sad.

No, we neither need to roll back to all-or-nothing AP nor should we want to. That was a bad system and good riddance to it. We can reduce lethality by reducing save modifiers, average shots per round, opportunities to fire, buffing terrain boni, removing or reducing strats that can buff damage output, or a whole host of other tweaks that maintain the current save system.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tittliewinks22 wrote:
2W Marines, T5 Orks and other defensive changes are a direct response to the lethality creep of the core rules that started in 6th edition and culminated in 8th.

6th edition increased the weight of fire of many weapons with the changes to twin-linked from being reroll misses to double shots. Even with this weight of fire creep that began, the average tactical or terminator still felt reasonably durable with 1 wound and that is largely to do with armor.

8th edition completely changed the way armor works, many weapons that the marine would normally shrug off due to the 3+ save or terminator 2+ save now modifies their armor save roll. The importance of an invulnerable save has never been higher due to this change. -1 AP turned marine armor into Tempestus armor, and -2 turned them into guardsman. Gone were the days of 3+ vs all but plasma, melta, or other deticated anti-tank firepower.

If you want to revert back to 1w marines, then we need to revert back to all or nothing armor saves. Right now we're getting more and more ways to "ignore invul saves" which functionally works the same as the old AP system, its sad.


Or they could just address the other factions which now have little to no chance to kill those Marines with their weapons. T5 is a good buff in and of itself, the problem was, unlike Marines, Orkz got about 6 nerfs to go along with it which reduced our infamous Ork Boyz from being highly relevant and prevalent in almost every army, to being never taken except as 1 of MSU Troops tax.

In 8th edition, pre-2W shenanigans, it took 9 shoota boyz to kill 1 Marine. 9. A boy was 7ppm, so 63pts to kill 15ish of Marine. It wasn't a good return on investment but it wasn't horrendous either. Today? Those same shoota boyz need 18 to kill 1 Marine and they now cost 9ppm. So its 162pts of Shoota boy to kill 1 18pt Marine. To earn their points back would take 9 full turns of shooting. You could reduce that by about 50% if you manage to get within 9 inches of your target and increase your ROF but thats it. Those same 9 boyz back in 8th killed 2.6 guardsmen a turn.

But, as previously mentioned, if you increase my shoota boyz ROF or dmg vs Marines, you are going to increase it vs everything else. 18 shoota boyz currently KILL 5.3 to 8 Guardsmen a turn. Not a good return on investment. But, if you buff Shoota boyz so that 9 of them go back to being able to kill 1 Marine, IE give them 3 shots base and -1AP 27 shots, 9 hits, 4.5 wounds and 2.25dmg for 1 dead Marine. thats 81pts killing 18pts of Marine, then against those same guardsmen they now kill 5 guardsmen thats 81pts of Ork killing 27.5pts of Guardsmen, or basically twice as good as they currently are.

Flip the targets around, pre 2 wound Marines it took 18 shots or 18 guardsmen to kill 1 Marine, or half that in half range. it currently takes 36 guardsmen or 18 in half range. If you buffed Lasguns to the point where it takes 18 lasguns to kill a Marine again then they also double their effectiveness against other targets. It used to take 7.2 Lasgun shots to kill an ork, 7.2 shots, 3.6 hits, 1.2 wounds 6+ save = 1 dead Ork. Thats not a bad return on investment, but if you double their ROF to deal with Marines it goes down to 3.6 lasguns, so now orkz are HALF as durable vs Lasguns,all because Marines have a 2nd wound and now entire weapon types are functionally useless at targeting them.

I agree that it wasn't a bad idea in and of itself to give Marines 2 wounds. The granularity room increased dramatically. The problem is that GW is rolling out these changes piecemeal and isn't adjusting other things either in terms of points or buffs to deal with the changes. Orkz got T5 which sounds great but turned out to be mostly irrelevant. They also got a 3rd wound on things like warbikes instead of buffing those bikes to T6, apparently warbikes, unlike every other bike in the entire game, give +2 wounds now instead of +1 wound/toughness.

Maybe in 10th we will see more balance to the meta in terms of durability/lethality.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins




Tacoma, WA, USA

You do realize that it taking twice as many Boyz or Guardsmen to kill a marine is the entire point of giving them 2 wounds?
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Right, so there are half as many space marines in armies now?

Or at least, a third fewer, given how prevalent multi-damage weapons are.

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




You could also let a guard infantry squad do MWs to infantry/bikes on 6's (capped at 1-2) to represent "insert reason". Then 2 guard squads (110 points), would do ~6 wounds or 3 marines. Now their effectiveness vs most other armies stays about the same, but the flashlights start to do work with weight of fire like it's supposed to.

Again, this is a problem because the guard codex hasn't been updated. A lagging codex is not a reason to nerf everything in the game.

If you're worried about marines now, IMHO wait until you see the GSC codex. I think they're going to get the DE treatment, so we'll see a DE & GSC meta for 6+ months after their codex release.
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 alextroy wrote:
You do realize that it taking twice as many Boyz or Guardsmen to kill a marine is the entire point of giving them 2 wounds?


Which is strange as Marines weren't being mowed down by Lasguns or Boys. If you wanted to kill Marines, you'd use stuff like overcharged Plasma . . . which still works just fine.


Tittliewinks22 wrote:
2W Marines, T5 Orks and other defensive changes are a direct response to the lethality creep of the core rules that started in 6th edition and culminated in 8th.

6th edition increased the weight of fire of many weapons with the changes to twin-linked from being reroll misses to double shots. Even with this weight of fire creep that began, the average tactical or terminator still felt reasonably durable with 1 wound and that is largely to do with armor.

8th edition completely changed the way armor works, many weapons that the marine would normally shrug off due to the 3+ save or terminator 2+ save now modifies their armor save roll. The importance of an invulnerable save has never been higher due to this change. -1 AP turned marine armor into Tempestus armor, and -2 turned them into guardsman. Gone were the days of 3+ vs all but plasma, melta, or other deticated anti-tank firepower.

If you want to revert back to 1w marines, then we need to revert back to all or nothing armor saves. Right now we're getting more and more ways to "ignore invul saves" which functionally works the same as the old AP system, its sad.


I agree with your premise but not your conclusion.

I don't think we need to revert to the old AP system to fix issues of durability. Instead, we should look towards scaling back other aspects of the game. e.g.:
- Reduce the rate of fire of many weapons. In the past, weapons like Assault Cannons with 4 shots used to represent the pinnacle of high-volume firepower weapons. Now it's not uncommon for weapons to have twice as many shots, sometimes even with good AP and multiple damage.
- Similarly, units should not be able to double-fire - either by not moving very far (Leman Russ) or with a Stratagem.
- Oh, and while we're at it, make twin-linked a reroll again - not double shots.
- Reduce the range of various weapons and go back to using full tables. There's a reason other skirmish games tend to have average ranges of about 12" for their weapons - because doing otherwise means armies are often largely or wholly in range of the enemy on turn 1.
- Impose heavier penalties for moving and firing Heavy weapons - even for vehicles. Sorry but tanks *should* suffer penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons. Especially if they're going to be absolutely bristling with firepower. Or, hell, at least impose some sort of penalty for firing massive, anti-vehicle weapons at Infantry.
- Similarly, if an enemy has -1 to hit, it shouldn't equate to a free Advance move for a unit with an Assault weapon, or a free normal move for a unit with a Heavy weapon. Some modifiers really should stack.
- Either ditch morale or make it something other than a lose-more mechanic.
etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that while the new AP system might have hurt Marines, it's far from the only issue. There have been compounding problems with increasing range and effectiveness of weapons, with the penalties and restrictions becoming fewer and fewer. Further, Marines are certainly not the only unit that seems to die very easily and some more universal fixes could go a long way to improving the game as a whole.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
You do realize that it taking twice as many Boyz or Guardsmen to kill a marine is the entire point of giving them 2 wounds?


So...the reason Marine players were complaining for several editions is because Shoota boyz and Imperial Guardsmen were too good at killing their Marines? Just to summarize, that means that A Marine player thought "Its totally unfair that 54pts of Ork shoota boyz can kill 15pts of Marine!" and "This is ridiculous, 90pts of Guardsmen shouldnt be able to kill 1 15pt Marine, this is BS!"

If that is the real reason behind the 2 Wound mechanic than 1: Marine players are a bunch of whiny babies and 2: done, go back to 1W per Marine.

The supreme irony is that so many Marines did complain that their power fantasy wasn't coming true that they got a 2nd wound, 2nd charge attack, 2nd bolter shot all for 3ppm. And what happened almost immediately? People stopped taking mass S4 no AP 1dmg weapons and started taking -AP 2dmg weapons. When Gravis became their go to choice players started taking 3Dmg+ weapons.

Something Marine players really need to realize, they are the de facto measuring stick. So anytime they get some kind of change the meta adjusts around them because they are without a shadow of a doubt the most prevalent faction in the game.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?

Good being relative of course
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?

Good being relative of course


Yes, because prior to going to 2 wounds Marines never dominated the meta....except for all those times they did.

The point I made was that your Marines will never feel durable/elite when every tournament list you face is list tailoring to face off against at least 1 Marine player out of 3. Statistically you are more likely than not to face off against a Power armored opponent, usually with 2+ wounds. So yeah, with that in mind I try to bring 2dmg weapons or a lot of 1dmg weapons with AP.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






SemperMortis wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?

Good being relative of course


Yes, because prior to going to 2 wounds Marines never dominated the meta....except for all those times they did.

The point I made was that your Marines will never feel durable/elite when every tournament list you face is list tailoring to face off against at least 1 Marine player out of 3. Statistically you are more likely than not to face off against a Power armored opponent, usually with 2+ wounds. So yeah, with that in mind I try to bring 2dmg weapons or a lot of 1dmg weapons with AP.


Changing marines to 1W would not fix list tailoring either. You can't fix list tailoring without removing player agency.

If you put marines down to 1W people are just going to go back to 1D weapons with high rof and mid ap like we've seen before
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







SemperMortis wrote:
...If that is the real reason behind the 2 Wound mechanic than 1: Marine players are a bunch of whiny babies and 2: done, go back to 1W per Marine...


Marines were too squishy in 6e/7e because of AP3 template weapons with Ignores Cover (things like Heldrakes and Riptide ion cannons). If you can easily hit the whole squad, and you're wounding them on 3+ or 2+, and you ignore any save they might have, it was pretty trivial for one big weapon to remove whole squads of Marines all at once. 2W Marines are a case of classic GW overcompensation; they changed the to-wound table to buff T4 (S6-7 used to wound them on 2+), and changed blast weapons to both roll to hit and have random shots rather than hitting however many models the blast template touched (so a battle cannon's now hitting 3 or 4 models instead of 7 or 8), and changed AP/cover so it's much harder to ignore saves entirely, and added extra defensive buffs to some Chapter Tactics, and then changed Marines to 2W, so they've swung pretty hard in the other direction to too durable. Unfortunately they then decided they'd messed up in the 8e Indexes and dumped a lot of buffs onto a lot of Marine-killing weapons over the course of 8e, so Marines are still kind of squishy against dedicated anti-Marine weapons while still being way too resilient against small arms, and then they decided they'd overcompensated again in 9th which is where we're getting things like flat DR on Death Guard and the "can't wound on better than 4+" mechanic.

This is the history of 40k for the last ten years. The design team has a bunch of really cool ideas, throws them all into a blender because they can't decide which to use, some of them break the game, they have a bunch of really cool ideas about how to fix it, some of those break the game, rinse, repeat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
...You can't fix list tailoring without removing player agency...


You can absolutely fix list-tailoring without removing player agency, you just have to stop making skew armies. Defining a design space where stuff falls into neat categories, where you have some set of defensive profiles and some set of weapons that are more efficient against some of those defensive profiles than others, is pretty much basic game design. Then saying "yeah, let's just cross off chunks of the design space for each army, this army has no heavy armor, this army has no light infantry, this army is just superheavies..." creates degenerate situations like people defaulting to spamming anti-Marine weapons because too many people play Marines.

Either that, or stop releasing three times as much content for Marines than everyone else, and stop making sure they always have an up-to-date Codex while leaving other people to languish for years with a Codex an edition behind, and then maybe people will play other armies now and again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/23 17:35:16


Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
...If that is the real reason behind the 2 Wound mechanic than 1: Marine players are a bunch of whiny babies and 2: done, go back to 1W per Marine...


Marines were too squishy in 6e/7e because of AP3 template weapons with Ignores Cover (things like Heldrakes and Riptide ion cannons). If you can easily hit the whole squad, and you're wounding them on 3+ or 2+, and you ignore any save they might have, it was pretty trivial for one big weapon to remove whole squads of Marines all at once. 2W Marines are a case of classic GW overcompensation; they changed the to-wound table to buff T4 (S6-7 used to wound them on 2+), and changed blast weapons to both roll to hit and have random shots rather than hitting however many models the blast template touched (so a battle cannon's now hitting 3 or 4 models instead of 7 or 8), and changed AP/cover so it's much harder to ignore saves entirely, and added extra defensive buffs to some Chapter Tactics, and then changed Marines to 2W, so they've swung pretty hard in the other direction to too durable. Unfortunately they then decided they'd messed up in the 8e Indexes and dumped a lot of buffs onto a lot of Marine-killing weapons over the course of 8e, so Marines are still kind of squishy against dedicated anti-Marine weapons while still being way too resilient against small arms, and then they decided they'd overcompensated again in 9th which is where we're getting things like flat DR on Death Guard and the "can't wound on better than 4+" mechanic.

This is the history of 40k for the last ten years. The design team has a bunch of really cool ideas, throws them all into a blender because they can't decide which to use, some of them break the game, they have a bunch of really cool ideas about how to fix it, some of those break the game, rinse, repeat.


And that is the hammer hitting the nail on the head. Marines weren't squishy to 90% of weapons in the game, they were squishy to a very select few weapons, and because of that and the prevalence of Marines in the meta, a lot of people took those kind of weapons en masse. As an Ork player, we used to spam Rokkitz on everything from Trukkz, battlewagons to boyz mobz because they were AP3 which meant they ignored Marine armor saves. 5pts to take a rokkit which hits 1/3rd of the time, wounds 5/6th the time and no armor save for instant dead Marine Vs 5pts for a Big shoota which had 3 shots, 1 hit at S5, 0.66 wounds and 0.22 chance to kill 1 Marine. So in 3 turns you likely kill 1 Marine with a rokkit, where as the big shoota is just rocking a 66% chance to kill a Marine. Didn't matter that the big shoota was vastly better against badly armored targets, because orkz had a plethora of guns/choppas to deal with those threats.

So we changed the meta drastically to favor those Marines. Look at the cover rules and how they have adapted. Those aforementioned flamers ignored cover so the Marine just died. Now, they don't ignore cover for the most part AND instead of getting a 4+ cover save that Marine is rocking a 2+ cover save. MY orks went from a 4+ cover save to a 5+ save.

GW has done literally everything they can to make Marines more durable, and what did the meta do? Swapped out their weapon loadouts to favor high AP multi-dmg weapons. And here we are back to square 1. So buffing Marines to 2-3 or even 4 wounds won't change much except the load outs people are taking. And since GW hasn't addressed the massive lack of dmg output from everyone else's basic weapons, we now have a problem where those units that have to take those weapons are rotting on the shelf. Why in hell would I take a 9ppm Shoota boy who averages 0.11dmg to a Marine a turn when I can instead take a choppa boy who when he finally gets into combat averages 0.5dmg a turn, even more so if goff or during a WAAAAAGH.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?


It's not that Marines can't be good, that's just being disingenuous and ignoring all the times when Marines have been good.

It's that Marine players want to have their cake and eat it. They want their Marines to feel like these super-rare, impossibly-elite units, because that's how they're depicted in all the bolter-born books. However, they're also playing the most ubiquitous army in the entire game. It just doesn't work.

The popularity of Marines means that they are - and will always be - the baseline for infantry. If you make them W2, it doesn't make them more elite, it just makes W2 the baseline for troops and forces any anti-infantry weapons/units unable to deal with W2 infantry out of the meta entirely.

If you really want Marines to feel elite, then you need to convince a lot of other people to stop playing them. If, say, Imperial Guard became the default army, then people would instead start tailoring for massed T3 5+ infantry. In this scenario, even 1-wound T4 3+ infantry would feel elite by comparison, as they would be dealing with a lot of basic flamers, bolters, grenade launchers and other such weapons with little to no AP. However, when the majority of the player base is playing a flavour of Marines, all you're going to see is Plasma, Disintegrators and other such weapons that excel at slaying Marines.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





 vipoid wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?


It's not that Marines can't be good, that's just being disingenuous and ignoring all the times when Marines have been good.

It's that Marine players want to have their cake and eat it. They want their Marines to feel like these super-rare, impossibly-elite units, because that's how they're depicted in all the bolter-born books. However, they're also playing the most ubiquitous army in the entire game. It just doesn't work.

The popularity of Marines means that they are - and will always be - the baseline for infantry. If you make them W2, it doesn't make them more elite, it just makes W2 the baseline for troops and forces any anti-infantry weapons/units unable to deal with W2 infantry out of the meta entirely.

If you really want Marines to feel elite, then you need to convince a lot of other people to stop playing them. If, say, Imperial Guard became the default army, then people would instead start tailoring for massed T3 5+ infantry. In this scenario, even 1-wound T4 3+ infantry would feel elite by comparison, as they would be dealing with a lot of basic flamers, bolters, grenade launchers and other such weapons with little to no AP. However, when the majority of the player base is playing a flavour of Marines, all you're going to see is Plasma, Disintegrators and other such weapons that excel at slaying Marines.

Exactly this.
I've squeezed every ounce of competitiveness out of the old smelly potato that is the Tau codex and my go-to list for matched play pick up games is simply packed with anti-MEQ weapons. Once considered the constraints given by my collection of models, I feel that I have a better chance of playing a decent game if I bring massed Dd3 weapons like missile pods and D2 heavy burst cannons on at least a Riptide. I usually bring literally zero flamers or other anti-GEQ weapons as they would be basically useless against T4 W2 3+ statlines that more or less represent half of the possible opposing armies.


 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






 vipoid wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?


It's not that Marines can't be good, that's just being disingenuous and ignoring all the times when Marines have been good.

It's that Marine players want to have their cake and eat it. They want their Marines to feel like these super-rare, impossibly-elite units, because that's how they're depicted in all the bolter-born books. However, they're also playing the most ubiquitous army in the entire game. It just doesn't work.

The popularity of Marines means that they are - and will always be - the baseline for infantry. If you make them W2, it doesn't make them more elite, it just makes W2 the baseline for troops and forces any anti-infantry weapons/units unable to deal with W2 infantry out of the meta entirely.

If you really want Marines to feel elite, then you need to convince a lot of other people to stop playing them. If, say, Imperial Guard became the default army, then people would instead start tailoring for massed T3 5+ infantry. In this scenario, even 1-wound T4 3+ infantry would feel elite by comparison, as they would be dealing with a lot of basic flamers, bolters, grenade launchers and other such weapons with little to no AP. However, when the majority of the player base is playing a flavour of Marines, all you're going to see is Plasma, Disintegrators and other such weapons that excel at slaying Marines.


What changes when marines go to W1? I'd wager nothing. As for me, they'd go back on the shelves because they'd most likely be unplayable unless you take some skew list that doesn't have a hint of fluff behind it.

The prevalence of high ap weapons won't just disappear, as you yourself say marines are the most popular faction. So why would they change tactics? Nothing would change unless everything changes from grot to knight.

I can't speak for all marine players, but all I want to do is line up my 30 odd marines mixed with vehicles and have a fair game against my opponent. W1 marines didn't give me that.
   
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 Aenar wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?


It's not that Marines can't be good, that's just being disingenuous and ignoring all the times when Marines have been good.

It's that Marine players want to have their cake and eat it. They want their Marines to feel like these super-rare, impossibly-elite units, because that's how they're depicted in all the bolter-born books. However, they're also playing the most ubiquitous army in the entire game. It just doesn't work.

The popularity of Marines means that they are - and will always be - the baseline for infantry. If you make them W2, it doesn't make them more elite, it just makes W2 the baseline for troops and forces any anti-infantry weapons/units unable to deal with W2 infantry out of the meta entirely.

If you really want Marines to feel elite, then you need to convince a lot of other people to stop playing them. If, say, Imperial Guard became the default army, then people would instead start tailoring for massed T3 5+ infantry. In this scenario, even 1-wound T4 3+ infantry would feel elite by comparison, as they would be dealing with a lot of basic flamers, bolters, grenade launchers and other such weapons with little to no AP. However, when the majority of the player base is playing a flavour of Marines, all you're going to see is Plasma, Disintegrators and other such weapons that excel at slaying Marines.

Exactly this.
I've squeezed every ounce of competitiveness out of the old smelly potato that is the Tau codex and my go-to list for matched play pick up games is simply packed with anti-MEQ weapons. Once considered the constraints given by my collection of models, I feel that I have a better chance of playing a decent game if I bring massed Dd3 weapons like missile pods and D2 heavy burst cannons on at least a Riptide. I usually bring literally zero flamers or other anti-GEQ weapons as they would be basically useless against T4 W2 3+ statlines that more or less represent half of the possible opposing armies.


and as someone also piloting an old, janky, neglected potato of a codex that is GSC, this fact for me is FANTASTIC.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 fraser1191 wrote:
 vipoid wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
So because marines are the baseline we are doomed to just suck it up and be not a "good" faction?


It's not that Marines can't be good, that's just being disingenuous and ignoring all the times when Marines have been good.

It's that Marine players want to have their cake and eat it. They want their Marines to feel like these super-rare, impossibly-elite units, because that's how they're depicted in all the bolter-born books. However, they're also playing the most ubiquitous army in the entire game. It just doesn't work.

The popularity of Marines means that they are - and will always be - the baseline for infantry. If you make them W2, it doesn't make them more elite, it just makes W2 the baseline for troops and forces any anti-infantry weapons/units unable to deal with W2 infantry out of the meta entirely.

If you really want Marines to feel elite, then you need to convince a lot of other people to stop playing them. If, say, Imperial Guard became the default army, then people would instead start tailoring for massed T3 5+ infantry. In this scenario, even 1-wound T4 3+ infantry would feel elite by comparison, as they would be dealing with a lot of basic flamers, bolters, grenade launchers and other such weapons with little to no AP. However, when the majority of the player base is playing a flavour of Marines, all you're going to see is Plasma, Disintegrators and other such weapons that excel at slaying Marines.


What changes when marines go to W1? I'd wager nothing. As for me, they'd go back on the shelves because they'd most likely be unplayable unless you take some skew list that doesn't have a hint of fluff behind it.

The prevalence of high ap weapons won't just disappear, as you yourself say marines are the most popular faction. So why would they change tactics? Nothing would change unless everything changes from grot to knight.

I can't speak for all marine players, but all I want to do is line up my 30 odd marines mixed with vehicles and have a fair game against my opponent. W1 marines didn't give me that.


*looks at my 1w chaos space marines* yeah that’s fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I remember when all my chaos space marines did was explode and run away... good times 7th edition were.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/23 23:33:23


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macluvin wrote:
...I remember when all my chaos space marines did was explode and run away... good times 7th edition were.


I mean, in 8th and 9th all my CSM have done is explode and run away, so...

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
macluvin wrote:
...I remember when all my chaos space marines did was explode and run away... good times 7th edition were.


I mean, in 8th and 9th all my CSM have done is explode and run away, so...


At least you didn’t spend half your turn rolling ld rolls and then retreat movement rolls in 8th and 9th.

Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut 
   
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macluvin wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
macluvin wrote:
...I remember when all my chaos space marines did was explode and run away... good times 7th edition were.


I mean, in 8th and 9th all my CSM have done is explode and run away, so...


At least you didn’t spend half your turn rolling ld rolls and then retreat movement rolls in 8th and 9th.


Oh, no, that's true, I get tabled as a punishment for buying the wrong Codex way faster now.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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CSM get to run away? When have they ever survived enough to even have to take a leadership test? lol
   
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I've heard complaints that the game is too lethal. . .

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Morale these days just kills the last few in the squad.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Italy

 fraser1191 wrote:


The prevalence of high ap weapons won't just disappear, as you yourself say marines are the most popular faction. So why would they change tactics? Nothing would change unless everything changes from grot to knight.


As long as they are the most popular faction, TAC list will always be somehow tailored against them.

 fraser1191 wrote:

I can't speak for all marine players, but all I want to do is line up my 30 odd marines mixed with vehicles and have a fair game against my opponent. W1 marines didn't give me that.


My 30-40 1W space wolves infantries, backed with some vehicles, did great in every edition I played (3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th). My regular SM opponents, also fielding 30-40 infantries and some vehicles, did great in every editions I played as well.

 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





Having a few anti MEQ weapons in your list isn't skewing or tailoring.

The medium/heavy infantry profile is everywhere in the game, not only on SM. If you don't prepare for them, then it is like making a list without any form of AT.

   
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Italy

Spoletta wrote:
Having a few anti MEQ weapons in your list isn't skewing or tailoring.

The medium/heavy infantry profile is everywhere in the game, not only on SM. If you don't prepare for them, then it is like making a list without any form of AT.



True, but bringing lots of anti meq weapons and little anti cheap chaff and little anti tank surely is. Most of the SM armies just run footslogging/jump pack/biker multi-wound models.

 
   
 
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