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Man, I love how this thread turned into a Data Visualization exam... why is the criticized guy the only one making charts?

Daedalus, thanks for providing the numbers (even if they were initially slightly incorrect/unclear). You don't have to do that, we should all appreciate that you always try to provide something quantitative to ground the discussion.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Man, I love how this thread turned into a Data Visualization exam... why is the criticized guy the only one making charts?

Daedalus, thanks for providing the numbers (even if they were initially slightly incorrect/unclear). You don't have to do that, we should all appreciate that you always try to provide something quantitative to ground the discussion.

Aww thanks.

Though I think people have been fine. Text always conveys a sharper tone than is usually intended.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly?
Probably go for Orkboy, starting out with a shoota at 7ppm
Choppa and Slugga +1ppm

Change the general SV for orkboys to 5+.
Add an option to upgrade to ard boyzs for 1 ppm.

Still too expensive imo, maybe if they got old mob rule thrown in. I’d keep the choppa slugga at 7 too, we don’t get nearly as many buffs as we got in 8th so they should just kinda be cheaper.

The morale is meant to be a balancing factor against large units. Maybe the answer is to look at unit size buffs and leave morale alone?

Whilst at 25+ boyz they get 4+ save at range due to being a teeming mass, 20+ gets you +1 attack, 15+ increases dakkadakka weapons shots by 1. All of which are cumulative.

No price change, no change to morale, just scaling buffs to bigger units to make them scarier whilst also more vulnerable to their counters (blast and morale).

Dudeface wrote:
The morale is meant to be a balancing factor against large units. Maybe the answer is to look at unit size buffs and leave morale alone?

Whilst at 25+ boyz they get 4+ save at range due to being a teeming mass, 20+ gets you +1 attack, 15+ increases dakkadakka weapons shots by 1. All of which are cumulative.

No price change, no change to morale, just scaling buffs to bigger units to make them scarier whilst also more vulnerable to their counters (blast and morale).

They’d still be terrible with that. Orks were always designed to not really care about morale (unless you’re grots). With orks you should be actively encouraged to just take massive units, it’s kinda how they work. And having those buffs at those levels would be terrible, it’s just have people chipping off 5 boyz off every squad. If you wanted to go with that approach have it be for having 11+ boyz, so people have to focus down an entire mob. I’d then also bring back mob up so people can’t just leave little islands of boyz.

That’s all really complicated though, much simpler to just bring back boyz being cheap, then revert kff and weirdboy to 8th.

Eh, 8th wasn't that great either. Those mobs of 30 were forced artificially, in prior editions mobs of 20 were doing the job just a well.

Ideally, an ork running a Waaagh! list should at least consider running boyz as an option and not avoid running them at all costs. However, the extreme of 150+ boyz just being a list on their own was just as bad. Most people neither like playing those lists, nor do people enjoy playing against them.

 Jidmah wrote:
Eh, 8th wasn't that great either. Those mobs of 30 were forced artificially, in prior editions mobs of 20 were doing the job just a well.

Ideally, an ork running a Waaagh! list should at least consider running boyz as an option and not avoid running them at all costs. However, the extreme of 150+ boyz just being a list on their own was just as bad. Most people neither like playing those lists, nor do people enjoy playing against them.

Pretty much sums it up, it seems better to make the boyz worth their increased point cost, fewer models to buy as an ork player and less draining to play against. Orks should be a credible scary threat, not just a pita because they're cheap and immune to morale.

I kinda like having just cheap bastards to swarm out. Maybe keep the ridiculous 9 point lads, but also have cheap 6 point yoofs.

 addnid wrote:
For players who do not know how to screen, or can't be bothered to build an army with screens, perhaps. But screening ain't so hard so perhaps check a few youtube videos, then face kommandos, and see if you still want to nerf them. They are fine as they are IMHO.

The only way to screen out Kommandos is to have your own infiltrators. Something not every army is capable of, or don't have competitive options that can do it. If you don't have your own infiltrators, you've lost the game already. Kommandos can move block you out of objectives T1 and you'll miss primaries command phase T2 because of them, if you're lucky you might be able to get on the mid-field objectives for primaries in command phase T3. That's if the rest of the Ork army hasn't capitalized on that.

The point is, Kommandos are far too cheap for what they do right now and Boys are too expensive.

 addnid wrote:
UNLESS... The comparison with Imp guard squads makes me think that if we could move move move our boyz turn 1 then it would all work out, even at 9 PPM ? Would have to be blood axe boyz though if copying imp guard squads I guess (and we obvioulsy want Goff boyz don't we)

The difference between Guards and Orks is that requires Guard to get T1 to move block effectively with MMM. Orks do it before the game begins.

So it sounds like the general consensus is that Boyz are too expensive and too susceptible to Morale. My solution:
1. Drop them down a point per model
2. Add to Mob Rules. "Additionally, while the unit contains 10 or more models when it makes a Combat Attrition test, one additional model flees from the unit per two dice results of 1 rather than fore each result of 1. Ignore any single left over result of 1. For example, if the Combat Attrition test results has five 1s, two models flee the unit."

And now we have less Morale impact on large units of Orks without there being no impact at all.

Jarms48 wrote:
The only way to screen out Kommandos is to have your own infiltrators. Something not every army is capable of, or don't have competitive options that can do it. If you don't have your own infiltrators, you've lost the game already. Kommandos can move block you out of objectives T1 and you'll miss primaries command phase T2 because of them, if you're lucky you might be able to get on the mid-field objectives for primaries in command phase T3. That's if the rest of the Ork army hasn't capitalized on that.

The point is, Kommandos are far too cheap for what they do right now and Boys are too expensive.

They're 9" away ( or more ) and it isn't like they're move blocking you. What happens in my games is they stay near, but out of harms way then they waaagh on to your objective so you don't score the next turn ( possibly ).

At that point you need to sacrifice some shooting to push far enough to keep them off the bubble.

Taking a temporary hit on primary isn't the end of the game, either.

 alextroy wrote:
So it sounds like the general consensus is that Boyz are too expensive and too susceptible to Morale. My solution:
1. Drop them down a point per model
2. Add to Mob Rules. "Additionally, while the unit contains 10 or more models when it makes a Combat Attrition test, one additional model flees from the unit per two dice results of 1 rather than fore each result of 1. Ignore any single left over result of 1. For example, if the Combat Attrition test results has five 1s, two models flee the unit."

And now we have less Morale impact on large units of Orks without there being no impact at all.

There is an existing wording used that's just halve the number of models that flee that unit due to failed Combat Attrition tests (rounding fractions down), on Boss Zagstruk.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly?
Probably go for Orkboy, starting out with a shoota at 7ppm
Choppa and Slugga +1ppm

Change the general SV for orkboys to 5+.
Add an option to upgrade to ard boyzs for 1 ppm.

Still too expensive imo, maybe if they got old mob rule thrown in. I’d keep the choppa slugga at 7 too, we don’t get nearly as many buffs as we got in 8th so they should just kinda be cheaper.

i mean the alternative is to add to the shoota the +1 A if in melee aswell.

You could also just make the bonus for having many boyz +1 to hit. Less dice and it helps both kinds of boyz.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

This is the kind of theory hammer that I think isn't realistic.
Here's a top placing Sisters list ( using new FAQ ):

Spoiler:

5 Sisters
10 Dominions with DBs that hurt marines more than boyz.
10 Retributors w/ MM
5 Retributors w/ HB
2 Rhinos
13 Sacresants
17 Repentia
5 Serpahim

There is hardly any shooting capable of downing enough boyz to be effective.

I'm assuming the Dominion squad is running with the Artificer crafted storm bolters, Ive no idea what DBs are. So each 5 man squad is putting out 18 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds and 3.3 dead Orkz each. that's Dominions averaging 6.6 by themselves, so there's 1 mob failing morale. The retributors with 4 heavy bolters are 15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds and 5 dead Orkz. The boltgun has a chance to plink off that last wound, and you could always just take the other 2 Bolters from the other 2 retributor squads to plink that last ork with ease. 10 Retributors with MM is 8 MM and 2 bolters. 8 MM is 16 shots, 10-11 hits, 7 wounds and 7 super dead Boyz. There is your 3rd mob down enough to auto-fail morale with ease.

I didn't even need the whole list to do the bare minimum like I said. Thats 2 dominion squads and 3 Retributor squads. Grand total of....545pts. What did you kill? You killed 20ish boyz with relative ease, thats 180pts of dead ork. Best part? Thats 3 more dead from Morale and about 12 more dead on average from attrition. So in reality its not 180pts of dead ork its 35 dead or 315. I would say 545pts killing 315pts in a single turn is a good return on investment. Especially since those boyz are likely out of range turn 2 to charge.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Here's a marine list:

Spoiler:

5 Incursors
20 VV
2 Volcons
10 Devs, 2 Grav, 6 MM
6 CV
Pod

The Volcons can affect two units at most. A marine list with two Plasma Redemptors and two Volcons will kill a handful more and is capable of doing what you say if they just ignore making their units vulnerable and the boyz are tossed with abandon.
Ork players can still be use Da Jump, but to reposition into low threat lanes for a later move to threaten more strongly.

A volkite Dread is by itself doing 6 dead Orkz, even without the Cyclone missile launcher. So each dread is causing a morale check and ending with 11ish dead boyz, so 150pts killing 99 in a single turn of shooting.

You are drastically over-estimating the durability of boyz and orkz in general. I literally don't even have to break out the rest of that list since the 2 volkite dreads (assuming thats what a volcon is) do 2 mobz by themselves with a 66% return on investment turn 1.

I'll also mention that the SM player who won 2nd place at the London GT was running 3 5 man squads of Deathwatch veterans with frag Cannons. Thats 6 shots average (Blast) from each so 24 per squad, hitting on 3s wounding on 3s. 24 shots, 16 hits for 10.6 dead Orkz. From each squad. At max range they turn into 8 shots, 5.3 hits, and 3.5 super dead orkz from each squad by themselves. And those squads are only 143pts.

He also brought 3 repemptors with Macro Plasma/Onslaught gatling cannons and 3 Relic Contemptors armed with Volkite. So his list would shred any kind of infantry list So yeah, boyz don't work against that kind of firepower.

Jarms48 wrote:


The only way to screen out Kommandos is to have your own infiltrators. Something not every army is capable of, or don't have competitive options that can do it. If you don't have your own infiltrators, you've lost the game already. Kommandos can move block you out of objectives T1 and you'll miss primaries command phase T2 because of them, if you're lucky you might be able to get on the mid-field objectives for primaries in command phase T3. That's if the rest of the Ork army hasn't capitalized on that.

The point is, Kommandos are far too cheap for what they do right now and Boys are too expensive.

The difference between Guards and Orks is that requires Guard to get T1 to move block effectively with MMM. Orks do it before the game begins.

You seem very sore about Kommandos for some reason. At full (Never taken) strength, its 45 Kommandos in 3 mobz of 15. They don't deploy in the open unless your opponent is an idiot which means they aren't "move blocking" you, and even if they do leave them out in the open to "Move block" you....its 3 mobz, just go around them. And just so you are aware, if they deploy in the open, there defensive buffs are....THE EXACT SAME as a boyz model which isn't taken due to morale/durability issues. So if your opponent is pissing away 450pts turn 1 for you to gun down what amounts to boyz...you should be happy rather than saying "NERF KOMMANDOS!"

A host of armies have cheap infiltrators. A host of armies have units that get a pre-turn 1 move that do this. Hell, Tau get stealth teams which can do this for 26ppm and those are armed with way better weapons, a native 3+ -1 to hit and 2 wounds each. When they deploy in cover they are 2+ with -1 to hit.

Hell, Marine's can take scout squads for 70pts, are you complaining that they can do the exact same thing?

The point being here, is that you seem to have it out for Kommandos more than any other factions units that can do the exact same thing. "They are too cheap!" Yeah, compared to the options mentioned they are cheaper, but they also have a 6+ save as opposed to the 2+ and 3+ the other units get. They have 1 wound to the other factions 2. etc etc etc. So yes they are cheap because they aren't as geared/durable

 Jidmah wrote:
You could also just make the bonus for having many boyz +1 to hit. Less dice and it helps both kinds of boyz.

I like this only partially, because i don't think shoota boys should suck under say 15 modells per squad. NVM that morale atm is still overly punishing for them

Ideally, the threshold should be 10+ models so you can still make boyz in trukks work.

Absolutely, the blast malus is maxed out at 11+ bodies so also horde bonus should be triggered at that threshold. Getting it at 15+ or 20+ is certainly unfair.

 Jidmah wrote:
Ideally, the threshold should be 10+ models so you can still make boyz in trukks work.

I agree with 10+, but 2 things. 1: Without other buffs it wouldn't change the fact that they are functionally useless still. And 2: There is too much +1 to hit for CC, but even with +1 to hit in shooting phase for those boyz, 30 Shoota boyz at BS4 would be 30-45 hits depending on range. thats 15 - 22.5 wounds and against a Marine profile thats 5 - 7.5dmg or 2.5 to almost 4 dead Marines. Even if they are primaris thats 40-80pts killed by a unit costing 270. And they are incredibly vulnerable to return fire and morale.

As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.

 Jidmah wrote:
As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.

I agree completely. But the same is true for a lot of other factions. Look at Marines as the go to example. They have Marines, Marines +1, Marines +2, Marines +1 with Knives, Marines +1 with Auto-cannons, Marines +2 with Flamers, Marines +2 with Melta, etc etc etc etc. I think we can reach a point where Orkz have at least a similar level of competitive choices. I don't really view any of our Boyz+1 units as worth much. Kommandos definitely are worth it, but they have not 1, not 2 but 3 special rules tacked onto them for only 1ppm more. Tankbustas are in a weird place thanks to their new weapon type (Heavy) which makes them functionally useless except against vehicles. Burna boyz are still shoota boyz with shorter ranged guns, The buff to D6 helped, but S4 no AP isn't worth much this edition. Lootas...Hot garbage, I've shown you the math, they are point for point WORSE then almost every other Auto-cannon equipped unit.

I think a lot of our units could do with some upgrades to make them at least palatable, but specifically for boyz I think a divide into Choppa boyz and Shoota boyz datasheets would probably help a bit. Giving them a durability boost to 5+ armor would help, and giving them a morale boost would go a long way towards making them at least worth taking in MSU>

No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.

After playing two Freeboota Wazboms this past weekend all I can say is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu** Wazboms.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
After playing two Freeboota Wazboms this past weekend all I can say is fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu** Wazboms.

Looted doom scythes
(no one likes those either)

 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.

Again, I won't disagree. Burnas/lootas are definitely better than Shoota boyz. But that is like saying "This piece of crap tastes better than that piece of crap" I'm sure there is a difference, but at the end of the day, you're still eating crap

11ppm for what amounts to a boy with a flamer is kinda meh. Pyromaniaks special rule is a joke, the forced requirement of a Spanner is garbage, albeit more useful in burnas with a KMB than lootas. But yeah, they still require a trukk to survive longer than 10 seconds so the real cost of a full trukkload is 132pts for Burnas/spanners, 10pts for KMB and 70 for Trukk. So its 212pts for 10D6 S4 auto-hits and 2D3 S8 AP-3 D6 dmg shots that hit on 5s and kills its bearer on a hit roll of 1. Averages out to 35 Burna shots, 17.5 wounds against T4 and just shy of 3 dead Marines. The KMBs average 4 shots, 1.3 hits (0.65 dead Spannerz) 1.1 wounds and 0.92 failed armor saves for likely another dead Marine. So 4 dead marines for 80pts, but only if you get within 12' range. Not reliable enough for me Could be fun for a friendly game though.

 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.

Yeah, boyz could definitely use something to make them distinctively worth taking. I think the only issue I have with the discussion is just one of level of need.

If I take an ork list and I take a bunch of boyz in a horde with ghazghkull and a KFF and a waaagh banner and I do a big classic green tide, does it feel amazing? No.

Does it feel better than basically any list I can compose with my GSC, my Guard, my Eldar, or my Tau?

By a freaking mile.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.

Yeah, boyz could definitely use something to make them distinctively worth taking. I think the only issue I have with the discussion is just one of level of need.

If I take an ork list and I take a bunch of boyz in a horde with ghazghkull and a KFF and a waaagh banner and I do a big classic green tide, does it feel amazing? No.

Does it feel better than basically any list I can compose with my GSC, my Guard, my Eldar, or my Tau?

By a freaking mile.

I mean, the armies you've just listed are in dire need of being updated and even then I would say some of them wouldn't do that bad against a Green Tide list depending on how much you optimize the lists.

A better comparison would be against Black Templars using a Black Tide style list. They can run maxed out primaris or regular crusader squads with the 5+ invuln vow and do that archetype far better than an Ork list could. Even if its not optimal for BT, it certainly has a lot more staying power and comparable CC output and they don't need nearly as much support compared to an Ork boy squad.

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
No matter what you think of burnas and lootas, they are still vastly better than shoota boyz

And burnas actually do pop up surprisingly often in a lot in top ork lists.

Yeah, boyz could definitely use something to make them distinctively worth taking. I think the only issue I have with the discussion is just one of level of need.

If I take an ork list and I take a bunch of boyz in a horde with ghazghkull and a KFF and a waaagh banner and I do a big classic green tide, does it feel amazing? No.

Does it feel better than basically any list I can compose with my GSC, my Guard, my Eldar, or my Tau?

By a freaking mile.

I just played in a tournament where the guy who came in 4th place was running a tank heavy guard list. He smoke checked a few opponents with the sheer weight of fire. I would say against a green tide list, most IG lists would perform rather well. As in, better than average.

Ironically, you just named a lot of the actual problems with boyz right now. To make them feel worth it slightly you HAVE to take 3 buffing characters, of which, none are considered competitive. Realistically the Big Mek with KFF is in Mega Armor and costs 115pts, the waaagh banner is 70, and ghaz....well ghaz is a bit pricey at 300. So you are talking about just under 1/4th your entire list just to make 3 blobs of boyz feel ok. And even then they still suck.

For the Mek to earn his points back in durability, he has to save 12.7 wounds that would otherwise have gone through, that means you have to roll 13 6s on invuln saves. TO do that you would need an average of 78 armor saves at -1 or more. So he won't even earn his points back until the mobz are basically all dead, and even then, only if every shot was at least -1AP because otherwise the normal armor save would have worked. To put it another way, its just not worth it. A 5++ was worth it, the 6+....not so much.

Waaagh Banner makes them hit on 2s and ghaz makes them re-roll all failed to hit rolls... so thats 370pts to buff a boy from 2 hits on average to 2.91 To put that into perspective, instead of taking 370pts of buffing characters you could just take 41 more boyz. So 90 boyz with those buffs end up with 262.5 hits (No goff bonus for ease) 131 boyz normally end up with 262 So those buffs make the boyz 0.5 hits better Don't get me wrong, that isn't including the melee attacks that ghaz and the nob get, but the point remains valid, they provide little more than what Boyz would get regardless.

I don't understand why Ork units aren't immune to moral during the turns when Waaagh is in effect.

They're meant to be at their most overwhelming and damn Orky, I don't see any real Orkz fleeing when there is a good WAAAAGH going on!

 Jidmah wrote:
As long as boyz are slugga, choppa, shoota, big shoota, rokkit and a nob, I don't think you will ever find a correct points value for them.
You have like ten datasheets in the codex that are essentially boyz+1 (burnas, lootas, kommadoz, nobz, storm boyz, tankbustas...), with either the same or better weapons and extra rules. The only thing that makes them special is objective secured which almost never matters because they die too quickly to make use of it.

Without adding anything that just boyz can do, either the extra rules and gear is worth the extra points and you don't run boyz, or it's not and you get boyz spam with all other variants being obsolete again.

The only thing that would make orks bring boyz without spamming them would be upgrades similar to the trukk boyz specialist mob. For example, they could bring back 'ard boyz as an upgrade you can put on one mob per army.
Or add a stratagem that allows you to slap extra specialist mobs on boyz.

That's my same position on most of the troops in the game.
There shouldn't be an arms race between troops and elites with the "most efficient one" being the one taken at all times.

The efficient ones should be the elites. The troops should be the ones that interact best with the rest of the army and its theme.
You either are choke full of single targeted buffs which by their nature work best on high model count units (which typically are the troops), like Admech, Necrons and now Tyranids, or your troops interact very well with the underlying mechanics of the faction, like rubrics.

Orks have very bad single targeted buffs/stratagems, so there is no reason to play big mobz of boyz, and everyone ends up taking the elite versions. If the warbosses granted a single target buff which made a unit immune to morale, maybe you would see more boyz around.