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This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.
If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.
Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!
The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
Ya, but we have to do that without boosting Trukk Boyz. TBs are sick because they're so fast, and if you get 1st turn, your opponent is fighting to get out of their DZ while our heavy hitters are moving up.
We have to remember that most of the basic troop options in most codexes aren't that good. Intercessors, DE warriors, Boyz, AdMech S^b^b^b^b^b^b^b^b (Nvm... ), and even Plague and Rubric marines are just ok compared to other units. Even GK troops aren't uber compared to GK Interceptors.
A Troops role isn't to be the best on the battlefield, their role is to be ObSec bodies holding an objective while everything else goes and contests the mid-board and fights the opponent's stuff. Furthermore, it's tough to justify boosting boyz while Orks are still quite capable of alpha-striking our opponents off the board turn 1/2.
So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes. They are a little expensive, but @90 points they can still krump, they just get krump'd in return.
This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.
If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.
Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!
The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
Conclusion: pts are an issue. You feel you're not getting enough effect at 9ppm.
The silver lining to 9ppm current Boyz not being worth it?
ATM a few less of us have to face off against that boring-ass list you posted.
While I'm the strongest proponent of building & bringing any mix the rules allow, and I'll do my best vs whatever is set up against me, that doesn't make it any less boring to play against something like that.
Boyz are just a different sort of infantry, they’re supposed to be the backbone of your army, tanking through sheer numbers and dealing good damage. They’re not a tarpit, they’re an unstoppable green tide.
Part of why boyz were so durable was because they were so cheap, having more bodies than bullets is infinitely better than t5, especially combined with old kff. Orks we’re fundamentally based off of being cheap, tanky, buffable guys that you’d take loads of. By saying they’re suddenly 9 points you have to change the entire army because those aren’t orks anymore.
And it’s not like cheaper boyz forces you to take green tide, it means that you can take a solid core of infantry, then also your toys, which is pretty cool.
On the topic of green tide being boring to fight, most players I’ve seen who’ve done it have been moving boyz for so long that by the point you get 120+ boyz you can move em in your sleep.
And if people hate playing against skew lists, that’s sort of the point. You assess the current game situation, then counter it. 4th ed ork dex directly encouraged bullying space marines and eldar by skewing.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army. IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.
If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.
Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!
The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
Conclusion: pts are an issue. You feel you're not getting enough effect at 9ppm.
The silver lining to 9ppm current Boyz not being worth it? ATM a few less of us have to face off against that boring-ass list you posted. While I'm the strongest proponent of building & bringing any mix the rules allow, and I'll do my best vs whatever is set up against me, that doesn't make it any less boring to play against something like that.
Saying that points are the issue means that the solution would be adjusting points to a level where they become viable. You clearly do not want that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
brainpsyk wrote: So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes.
The answer is definitely no. Boyz are one of the worst units in the codex and people avoid playing them like the plague if they can. Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/10 17:33:37
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
brainpsyk wrote: So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes.
The answer is definitely no. Boyz are one of the worst units in the codex and people avoid playing them like the plague if they can. Trukk boyz are just barely playable, and nowhere near as good as intercessors.
When you consider that boys are only really used as Trukkboys now, your standard Ork Boy is effectively 16ppm taking the trukk into account. And that's a huge issue, and definitely not the cost you want to spend on a speedbump.
Trukkboys only work because they can hit early, either alongside something like kommandos, bikers or stormboys, or they hit something crippled by buggies and finish it off.
They are certainly not speedbumps.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/10 18:19:02
The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
Ya, but we have to do that without boosting Trukk Boyz. TBs are sick because they're so fast, and if you get 1st turn, your opponent is fighting to get out of their DZ while our heavy hitters are moving up.
Uh... I don't give a damn what a couple of rando's say about an army that Jidmah and I have likely played for 40+ years. Your argument is a logical fallacy called "Argument from Authority" its invalid because the entire premise is based upon the valuation of the "authority". I give no credibility to your chosen "Authority". I'll point out that Reece said in 8th that the Stompa and killa kans were going to be amazing bordering on Brokenly good. So yeah...unless the person is a diehard Ork player I tend not to give their opinion much respect because unlike some armies, if you don't play orkz you don't have a clue.
And with that said....Trukkboyz are BARELY playable. They are a 1st turn alphastrike unit....but they are literally just Kultureless Boyz so you get 27 S4 attacks and 5 S5 attacks hitting on 3s. Against a Marine unit that works out to 2.8 dead Marines a turn. So thats a 160pt unit killing 40(ish) points of Marine a turn. They aren't scary, they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else, and furthermore they are limited to 1 per detachment. I take 3 units of these in my competitive list, I never expect them to do much, they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units. Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between shooting 3 units of Kommandos forward deployed, 3 units of trukkboyz who will be in charge range turn 1, 3 units of Warbikes who will charge turn 1 and 3 units of deffkoptas who can charge turn 1 or unleash 18 D3 rokkit shots and attempt a charge. Of all those turn 1 threats the trukkboyz are better than the warbikes in CC but significantly worse in Dakka and durability and compared to Kommandos (who are cheaper and significantly more durable and deadly) they are trash. Trukk Boyz are in need of a buff rather than a nerf or a glossing over.
brainpsyk wrote: We have to remember that most of the basic troop options in most codexes aren't that good. Intercessors, DE warriors, Boyz, AdMech S^b^b^b^b^b^b^b^b (Nvm... ), and even Plague and Rubric marines are just ok compared to other units. Even GK troops aren't uber compared to GK Interceptors.
Well lets go take a look, Intercessors....last 3 top placing marine lists have a combined 0 units of Intercessors...its almost like because they aren't good at their tasks nobody takes them and either takes useful units or skips troops entirely. huh....thats literally what ork players are doing because our "basic troop options" are trash which is why the last 4 Ork lists that have placed had a combined 3 units of MSU grots and no boyz at all...in other words the cheapest Troop tax possible, but only in 3 out of 8 detachments meaning they took a CP hit to not have to take troops.
brainpsyk wrote: A Troops role isn't to be the best on the battlefield, their role is to be ObSec bodies holding an objective while everything else goes and contests the mid-board and fights the opponent's stuff. Furthermore, it's tough to justify boosting boyz while Orks are still quite capable of alpha-striking our opponents off the board turn 1/2.
So the question is, do boyz perform their function of speed-bumping & screening, and I think that answer is yes. They are a little expensive, but @90 points they can still krump, they just get krump'd in return.
ObSec is the most highly over rated ability in the game bar none. ObSec has literally mattered once for me in the last 6 months, almost every time it doesn't matter because the game is so deadly that the units locked on an objective either remove each other immediately or one side has more models and just controls it regardless.
I'm one of the few ork players in the game currently running an alphork strike list, I do table opponents regularly in 1-2 turns, but I take 2-3 units of Trukkboyz and nothing else and only because they are blazingly fast rather than anything else. I don't take any other boyz, nobody in the competitive scene is currently taking boyz. So making boyz WORTH 9ppm is a pretty good idea if GW wants to have a shot in hell of shifting their new boyz kitz because atm there is no incentive to buy any for Ork players because the competitive lists aren't taking any.
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Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Trukk boyz are just this editons version of a burna bommer, does a alright amount of damage but it’s more to mess with enemy deploy.
Not even close lol. I had a duo of burna bommers doing the crash and burn trick in 8th. If my opponent deployed badly I could routinely earn back their points + some from just the crash part let alone dropping the bomb. I remember one game against Ad Mech where my opponent castled up for buffs and my burna bommer killed 2 HQs and more models then you would believe, basically crippled his army turn 1.
In comparison, Trukkboyz routinely don't kill much, but what they do very well is tie up units my opponent had thought were far enough back as to be safe without a screen turn 1.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/11 03:03:27
This list would have been decent in 8th but is hot garbage in 9th. Even if you spent 3 CP to break down the 120 into more morale-friendly units of 10, it's still a fairly bad army.
IMO that is good thing, because playing like this is super boring, but people like Tim feel differently.
If you drop boyz to 7 points, this list essentially gains another 30 boyz, going from 120 to 150. Yet, it would still be garbage.
Drop boyz to 6 points and you now end up with 160. Either this is the breaking point where skew starts to work and everyone facing this army will hate playing against it, or it's not low enough and it's still garbage. Yay!
The only way to fix this is to make boyz worth 9 points.
Or when you drop Boyz down to 7 points a model and gain 240 points to play with, you add one of the following:
6 Meganobz
20 Stormboyz
2 Deff Dress
Anything else but 34 more Boyz
The point of cheaper Boyz is that they are so bad at 9 points that people don't want to take any outside of the odd Trukk Boyz unit.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/11 05:01:11
Uh... I don't give a damn what a couple of rando's say about an army that Jidmah and I have likely played for 40+ years.
If their opinion means nothing (since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today), then your 40 years mean even less (doubly so since you now claim Appeal to Authority, triply so since I've been playing for almost 30 years) Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.
And with that said....Trukkboyz are BARELY playable. They are a 1st turn alphastrike unit....but they are literally just Kultureless Boyz so you get 27 S4 attacks and 5 S5 attacks hitting on 3s. Against a Marine unit that works out to 2.8 dead Marines a turn. So thats a 160pt unit killing 40(ish) points of Marine a turn. They aren't scary, they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else, and furthermore they are limited to 1 per detachment. I take 3 units of these in my competitive list, I never expect them to do much, they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units. Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between shooting 3 units of Kommandos forward deployed, 3 units of trukkboyz who will be in charge range turn 1, 3 units of Warbikes who will charge turn 1 and 3 units of deffkoptas who can charge turn 1 or unleash 18 D3 rokkit shots and attempt a charge. Of all those turn 1 threats the trukkboyz are better than the warbikes in CC but significantly worse in Dakka and durability and compared to Kommandos (who are cheaper and significantly more durable and deadly) they are trash. Trukk Boyz are in need of a buff rather than a nerf or a glossing over.
/snip
I'm one of the few ork players in the game currently running an alphork strike list, I do table opponents regularly in 1-2 turns, but I take 2-3 units of Trukkboyz and nothing else and only because they are blazingly fast rather than anything else. I don't take any other boyz, nobody in the competitive scene is currently taking boyz. So making boyz WORTH 9ppm is a pretty good idea if GW wants to have a shot in hell of shifting their new boyz kitz because atm there is no incentive to buy any for Ork players because the competitive lists aren't taking any.
/snip
In comparison, Trukkboyz routinely don't kill much, but what they do very well is tie up units my opponent had thought were far enough back as to be safe without a screen turn 1.
1- your math is off. 2.8 marines is ~56 points, for a 35% return, which is actually pretty good.
2- "they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else" - yep that's their job and they do it well
3 - "they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units"- yep that's their job and they do it well
4 - "Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between..." - yep, that's their job and they do it well
5 - You're saying Trukkboyz are bad & barely playable, but if they were so bad you wouldn't take them at all. But, you take them THREE TIMES in your own list that you've gone 20-0 with and table your opponent in 2 turns!
In conclusion, you contradicted your own argument that they're bad, while proving they do their job you pay for. Sounds like Trukk boyz are just fine.
Intercessors and kabalite warriors are definitely much better than boyz. Kabalites in particular since they have a similar set of stats, while intercessors are harder to compare properly.
5 - You're saying Trukkboyz are bad & barely playable, but if they were so bad you wouldn't take them at all. But, you take them THREE TIMES in your own list that you've gone 20-0 with and table your opponent in 2 turns!
A unit that works in a single list's archetype that only a few players are willing to use it's the book definition of barely playable .
He plays 10+ units that can assault turn 1. That's an extreme approach to the game. And even then we still haven't seen anything like that winning GTs.
Units like intercessors or kabalites can fit nicely in pretty much any list's archetype, which makes them good units. Not to mention that they regularly show up in the top lists at GTs.
They put trukk boyz in the top 10 but not kommandos?
You can safely ignore them as people who have no clue about what they are talking about for anything ork related from here on out.
Also, the appeal to authority/celebrity fallacy applies here, just because someone of renown says something doesn't mean they are right. You still need actual arguments.
Uh... I don't give a damn what a couple of rando's say about an army that Jidmah and I have likely played for 40+ years.
If their opinion means nothing (since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today), then your 40 years mean even less (doubly so since you now claim Appeal to Authority, triply so since I've been playing for almost 30 years) Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.
I hate to break it to you, but your idol is not an ork player. I have found no traces of him ever winning anything with orks or even a battle rep of him playing orks against anyone.
He is just another person of interest that is acting as arm-chair warboss but has not actual clue what the feth he is talking about - just like Nick Nanavati in 8th who told everyone how orks were the most powerful army ever and how they should be played, and then proceeded to place not even once with them over the course of almost four months, while experienced ork players had no issues doing so.
And it's not just us, I even have data to back up my claim - in a recent poll I did with over 50 players from the ork community here on dakka with a combined experience of over half a century and ~600 games played with the current codex, trukk boyz ranked behind kommadoz, warboss on squigosaur, squigbuggies, scrap jets, kill rigs, dakka jets, wazzboms, warbikers and even deffkoptas, though just by a hair. Any tournament-winning army absolutely confirms that list. While you might argue about the kopta and warbiker placement, anyone putting trukkboyz before any of the other entries disqualifies himself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
alextroy wrote: Or when you drop Boyz down to 7 points a model and gain 240 points to play with, you add one of the following:
6 Meganobz
20 Stormboyz
2 Deff Dress
Anything else but 34 more Boyz
The point of cheaper Boyz is that they are so bad at 9 points that people don't want to take any outside of the odd Trukk Boyz unit.
Why would you take those units ins such an army? Even at 5 points boyz will still be a bad unit that people don't want to take unless they enter skew territory.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/12/11 10:01:32
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
So I've not played a single game using new editions/codex since the end of fifth edition, and I find it really funny that this thread is echoing every Ork complaint since third. What to do with Da Boys. Trukk boys don't hit hard enough to be dependable, and mob of boys don't survive long enough to hit intact. So the army solution is to take more other stuff and always less boys.
Just an observation, as I thought on what might do with my 160ish boys sitting around.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
Jayden63 wrote: So I've not played a single game using new editions/codex since the end of fifth edition, and I find it really funny that this thread is echoing every Ork complaint since third. What to do with Da Boys. Trukk boys don't hit hard enough to be dependable, and mob of boys don't survive long enough to hit intact. So the army solution is to take more other stuff and always less boys.
Just an observation, as I thought on what might do with my 160ish boys sitting around.
I think the big difference compared to old editions is that you can legitimately avoid taking boyz at all. Patrol detachments just require a single troops unit and outrider detachments require none at all. Of course, you pay CP to take these detachments, but orks mostly rely on powerful baseline units and don't have a lot of great stratagems to spend them on, plus you also get a specialist mob (=trukk boyz) for each detachment you take.
The other thing is that nobz no longer make up for the lack of damage of the boyz. In 5th you would stick a nob with a PK in every mob to at least give them a chance to kill a vehicle or a unit of marines. In 9th a nob will kill a marine or two and do some minor damage to a vehicle, but that's about it.
Having over 200 boyz myself, since the codex dropped I rarely take more than 3 mobs of 10 with me when gaming, the only reason to bring more for me is when playing an intro game for a new player or when I need hordes of orks for a narrative scenario.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
A unit that works in a single list's archetype that only a few players are willing to use it's the book definition of barely playable .
He plays 10+ units that can assault turn 1. That's an extreme approach to the game. And even then we still haven't seen anything like that winning GTs.
So BA Sang Guard suck because they only work in assault type lists? IGTC's suck because they only work in shooting type lists?
In 9th edition, doing 1 thing well in it's assigned role is better than performing a whole bunch of things poorly. There are units in the game that only perform one function, but as long as they perform that function well enough they can still be a good unit. In this case, TB's perform their role of an alpha-striking unit well enough.
For comparison, an example of a really bad unit is the Hounds of Morkai. HoM are an expensive unit in a role that they don't do that well, plus you have to tailor your army around them and rely on your opponent to take a psyker-heavy list for HoM to be remotely effective. On the other hand, a decent single-purpose unit like my IG guardsmen perform their role of screening quite well with MMM! but only serve that one purpose because they can't psychic, shoot or melee. But since guardsmen are good at screening with MMM! you see 60 of them in every IG list. And with FRFSRF, you might actually kill a T3 model or 2.
And it's not just us, I even have data to back up my claim - in a recent poll I did with over 50 players from the ork community here on dakka with a combined experience of over half a century and ~600 games played with the current codex, trukk boyz ranked behind kommadoz, warboss on squigosaur, squigbuggies, scrap jets, kill rigs, dakka jets, wazzboms, warbikers and even deffkoptas, though just by a hair. Any tournament-winning army absolutely confirms that list.
While you might argue about the kopta and warbiker placement, anyone putting trukkboyz before any of the other entries disqualifies himself.
Your data does not show that TBs are bad, just that there are better options (we'll ignore the subjectivity & local meta bias of the poll). As @Semper showed, and for the reasons stated in the AoW video, TBs have a role that they fill quite nicely. With a 25" average threat range (+waaaagh), TBs can hit your opponents back line turn 1, or shift from one side of the board to the other and steal objectives. That's the role of a TB, one they do that role well, that's why they're a good unit. But again, you have to tailor your army to a fast/alpha striking list to take advantage of that.
Now that doesn't mean TBs fit well in every army list archetype, or every local meta, it just means they have their place.
Your data does not show that TBs are bad, just that there are better options (we'll ignore the subjectivity & local meta bias of the poll). As @Semper showed, and for the reasons stated in the AoW video, TBs have a role that they fill quite nicely. With a 25" average threat range (+waaaagh), TBs can hit your opponents back line turn 1, or shift from one side of the board to the other and steal objectives. That's the role of a TB, one they do that role well, that's why they're a good unit. But again, you have to tailor your army to a fast/alpha striking list to take advantage of that.
Now that doesn't mean TBs fit well in every army list archetype, or every local meta, it just means they have their place.
Wow, you just put that goalpost into a lobba, launched it across a battlefield, where it hit a grot, which was then eaten along with the goalpost by a rampaging squigosaur, crapped out onto a mob of snotlings who were shortly after used as ammunition for a SAG and launched across the warp with a slightly too narrow warp tunnel to fill the mark X power armor of Lt. Joeus Doeus of the Ultramarines (who was having a really, really bad day up till now) with a foul smelling paste made of snotlings, goalpost and squigosaur turd.
However, you literally said that boyz should not be buffed because John Lennon said on a (his?) youtube video that trukkboyz were one of the best 10 units, and not just for orks, but IN THE ENTIRE GAME.
And to prove how right he is you link to a tournament winning list that not only pays 3 CP just to avoid having to play more than one unit of boyz, but also only plays just a single one of the 9TH BEST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME and lets his second special mob go to waste instead of playing a second one of the 9TH BEST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Of course, the list also plays 9 units from that biased and subjective list worth a total 1075 points in addition to the trukk boyz and 110 points worth of stormboyz. But I guess that just show how powerful the 9TH BEST UNIT IN THE ENTIRE GAME is when just one of them single-handedly carries all those inferior unit to a tournament win.
Congratulations you've played yourself.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/11 19:22:49
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
alextroy wrote: Or when you drop Boyz down to 7 points a model and gain 240 points to play with, you add one of the following:
6 Meganobz
20 Stormboyz
2 Deff Dress
Anything else but 34 more Boyz
The point of cheaper Boyz is that they are so bad at 9 points that people don't want to take any outside of the odd Trukk Boyz unit.
Why would you take those units ins such an army? Even at 5 points boyz will still be a bad unit that people don't want to take unless they enter skew territory.
You missed my point, which was making Boyz cheaper doesn't mean an army that is taking Boyz is going to take even more Boyz. If you want X Boyz in your list, then making them cheaper means you have points left over to take other units.
And it's not just us, I even have data to back up my claim - in a recent poll I did with over 50 players from the ork community here on dakka with a combined experience of over half a century and ~600 games played with the current codex, trukk boyz ranked behind kommadoz, warboss on squigosaur, squigbuggies, scrap jets, kill rigs, dakka jets, wazzboms, warbikers and even deffkoptas, though just by a hair. Any tournament-winning army absolutely confirms that list.
While you might argue about the kopta and warbiker placement, anyone putting trukkboyz before any of the other entries disqualifies himself.
An army that includes 1 unit of Trukk Boyz in a Patrol detachment doesn't prove Trukk Boyz are good. It just proves that they decided a unit of Trukk Boyz was more useful than losing 2 CP or taking either a unit of foot Boyz or Gretchen. Not a very high bar to cross.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/11 19:20:35
I would rather boyz just get better than become super cheap for all the reasons outlined by Jidmah. I'm not really sure how you accomplish that, but boyz feel awful in melee right now.
alextroy wrote: You missed my point, which was making Boyz cheaper doesn't mean an army that is taking Boyz is going to take even more Boyz. If you want X Boyz in your list, then making them cheaper means you have points left over to take other units.
I think we keep missing each other's point here. Maybe we should start over?
Bluntly said, my opinion is that with their current statlines, weapons and rules, the number of boyz I want in my list is zero. The main reason to take some anyways is because patrols (especially the first one in your list) cost less CP than outrider or spearhead detachments.
Reducing their points doesn't really change that issue.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
If their opinion means nothing (since John Lennon is one of the best players in the game as it stands today), then your 40 years mean even less (doubly so since you now claim Appeal to Authority, triply so since I've been playing for almost 30 years) Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.
As jidmah politely pointed out, that video lists their opinion of the most powerful units in the game. There is not a single Ork player who plays competitively who would rank Trukk Boyz ahead of Kommandos. Literally everything Trukkboyz do is done better by Kommandos. A unit of 10 kommandos with PK and bomb squig is 110pts starts the game in cover about 9' from the enemy deployment zone. They are T5 with either a 3+ armor save or 4+ with -1 to hit thanks to the cover save and special rules. They reliably get into CC every game for me and when they do...they hit like a wrecking ball. The 9 Kommando boyz on a WAAAGH turn do 36 attacks, 30 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5dmg vs a Marine statline, so right off the bat the regular guys just killed 6 Marines, or 120pts The nob swings with 4 attacks, 2.66 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.8 more dead Marines. All told you are likely looking at a single Kommando squad killing 8 Marines a turn, and thats not even using its Bomb squig which reliably hits and does 2 mortal wounds to a target. So, the kommando unit which is significantly cheaper, just as durable (more so in cover) and also does 4x more dmg and can do the exact same job as the Trukkboyz somehow didn't make that clowns list. Some armies are common place enough where people know whats good and what isn't. Orkz are not one of those armies.
So to summarize, someone who doesn't play orkz, commenting on what they consider the best ork unit to be is of little value when statistically we can prove them to be horribly wrong, in both dmg output, durability and ability to do more then 1 mission.
1- your math is off. 2.8 marines is ~56 points, for a 35% return, which is actually pretty good.
2- "they are just there to tie things up and cause a nuisance more then anything else" - yep that's their job and they do it well
3 - "they are just their to dilute the turn 1 fire amongst my plethora of Alpha strike units"- yep that's their job and they do it well
4 - "Turn 1 my opponent has to choose between..." - yep, that's their job and they do it well
5 - You're saying Trukkboyz are bad & barely playable, but if they were so bad you wouldn't take them at all. But, you take them THREE TIMES in your own list that you've gone 20-0 with and table your opponent in 2 turns!
In conclusion, you contradicted your own argument that they're bad, while proving they do their job you pay for. Sounds like Trukk boyz are just fine.
1 - fair enough, I rounded down when I should have rounded up to 60. And NO, a 35% return on a unit that ONLY does dmg in CC and isn't durable is not a good return on investment. As I pointed out with the Kommandos, they get more than 100% return when they get into CC in a single round.
2 - They are just there to tie things up - yes they do this job, just pray god your opponent doesn't have a fight first ability or is durable enough to soak up the dmg and wipe out the boyz on the return swing.
3 - No they don't. I've experimented with taking other units, sadly the ork army isn't blessed with anymore alpha strike units which are fast enough or durable enough to do the job. Trukkboyz are in a tie with Stormboyz which I don't take because they tend to die turn 1 since they don't get the benefit of a trukk to hide in. If you got rid of the rule of 3 I would take 4 more units of Kommandos instead, or more deffkoptas, but I wouldn't take more trukkboyz.
4 - Same as 3, no they don't there just aren't any other better options that I haven't maxed out the rule of 3 with.
5 - Yes I take them, My list archtype depends on alpha threat overload to force my opponent into a turn 1-2 concession. If I had better options or was allowed to break the rule of 3 I wouldn't take any. They just aren't good compared to other units like Deffkoptas, Kommandos etc. If I didn't want Warbosses piggybacking on the trukk, I'd likely just get rid of them and take beastbosses on squigosaurs instead, problem being is that they aren't any faster and cost more then a regular warboss as well as not synergizing with the rest of my list.
In conclusion, you did your best to dodge the point that trukkboyz AREN'T in a good spot, if they got to keep their kulture they would probably be doing ok, but without at least that, they are relegated to lists like mine which require alpha strike units.
alextroy wrote: You missed my point, which was making Boyz cheaper doesn't mean an army that is taking Boyz is going to take even more Boyz. If you want X Boyz in your list, then making them cheaper means you have points left over to take other units.
Except, nobody is currently taking ANY boyz, so reducing their price wouldn't save you any points it would just make a bad unit cheaper. There is no good price point for the current iteration of Boyz, they are either going to be garbage tier because their rules and price, or they are just going to be cheap spam units that slow the game down at 5-6ppm. There isn't a happy middle ground with their price, the correct answer is going to be buffing boyz to make them worth 9ppm. Fixing morale is a step in the right direction and likely giving them some kind of buff to make them a credible threat. I really like the idea of removing Trukk boyz from the game and just taking that rule and tying it into Boyz in general. With good morale that would likely fix MSU boyz if nothing else.
How old is the Ork codex now? 5 months (beast snagga release) and how many Trukk boyz are making appearances in top 4 GTs and majors? If we are going to use 1 offs as an example that something is good then may I present to you the definitely not in need of buffs Tau Armyhttps://www.40kstats.com/june2021" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.40kstats.com/june2021 which placed 4th at the Atlantic City GT back in June. I mean, they haven't placed since, but that doesn't matter right? Because 1 example of winning with something is proof that its good and not an anecdote right?
-You guys are the ones saying nobody takes TBs in tournament winning lists, yet they are being taken in tournament winning lists...
-You guys are the ones saying TBs are barely playable, yet you're playing them (3x) in your 20-0 list...
-You say Kommando's punch way above their weight class with ~140% ROI, so buff TBs. That's not a reason to buff TBs, that's a reason to nerf kommandos.
-You say nobody would take TBs if they could take more kommandos. Well fancy that. It's almost as if the rule of 3 is there to prevent power gamers from spamming broken units...
-You say TBs have no place, yet by your own logic and reasoning they do have a place that you and the top players in the game agree on.
The cognitive dissonance/group think in this thread (and Dakka Dakka in general) is really impressive. If you weren't so busy screaming "the sky is falling", you would realize TBs aren't so bad, and are actually quite powerful yet balanced.
Or maybe you are just moving goalposts, put words into our mouths and are creating an incoherent argument because you refuse to accept when you are wrong.
Oh, and TB is the shorthand for TankBustas, not Trukk Boyz.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/12 21:08:38
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks do not think that purple makes them harder to see. They do think that camouflage does however, without knowing why. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
brainpsyk wrote: -You guys are the ones saying nobody takes TBs in tournament winning lists, yet they are being taken in tournament winning lists...
-You guys are the ones saying TBs are barely playable, yet you're playing them (3x) in your 20-0 list...
-You say Kommando's punch way above their weight class with ~140% ROI, so buff TBs. That's not a reason to buff TBs, that's a reason to nerf kommandos.
-You say nobody would take TBs if they could take more kommandos. Well fancy that. It's almost as if the rule of 3 is there to prevent power gamers from spamming broken units...
-You say TBs have no place, yet by your own logic and reasoning they do have a place that you and the top players in the game agree on.
The cognitive dissonance/group think in this thread (and Dakka Dakka in general) is really impressive. If you weren't so busy screaming "the sky is falling", you would realize TBs aren't so bad, and are actually quite powerful yet balanced.
Let me know when Trukk Boyz routinely appear in GT/Major winning lists as opposed to a one off anecdote. Ironically, another GT winner just ran Trukk boyz...except it wasn't trukkboyz it was Trukk Meganobz with the Trukkboyz sub kulture because they didn't want sub par Boyz models when they could instead run Meganobz. That is another option I have strongly considered, I just think Meganobz are over priced at the moment and since they aren't troops I don't want to spend the CP or be forced to take another sub par unit. I view my Trukkboyz as the best available troop tax rather then a "Good" part of my list. So your argument devolves from "LOOK THEY ARE WINNING GTS!" To "they placed once in a GT" and you go from "You're the one taking them in your list!" to "its the least bad available troop tax". LMAO, that line of reasoning would mean that all the tax units in the old 7th edition super formation were "good" because you had to take them if you wanted the benefits of the rest of your army .
Bud, you talk about cognitive dissonance and yet you are the one building your entire argument on logical fallacies.
I have a lot of boyz, but the new codex made me quit playing big 30 blobs of them. I usually take a few to have my tropps, and also the sensation of playing a green tide, but only in 10 man units now.
This is kind of a shame they headed the codex that way, especially considering they made a new ork boyz kit.
I don't do tournaments, only local and sometime semi-competitive lists. But lately it's been kind of a bother to take boyz in any way.
Mr Raptor wrote: I have a lot of boyz, but the new codex made me quit playing big 30 blobs of them. I usually take a few to have my tropps, and also the sensation of playing a green tide, but only in 10 man units now.
I wouldn't mind fielding multiple 10 man squads of boyz in footslogging based lists if they were worthy to be honest. I like boyz, I want to field them, but not necessarily as a green tide.
SemperMortis wrote: So your argument devolves from "LOOK THEY ARE WINNING GTS!" To "they placed once in a GT" and you go from "You're the one taking them in your list!" to "its the least bad available troop tax". LMAO, that line of reasoning would mean that all the tax units in the old 7th edition super formation were "good" because you had to take them if you wanted the benefits of the rest of your army .
Bud, you talk about cognitive dissonance and yet you are the one building your entire argument on logical fallacies.
From that, you don't even get what a logical fallacy is.
The whole argument is "Boyz suck and nobody takes them because they aren't OP like the rest of the units my 20-0 alpha strike list". Yet you take three of them (self contradiction). Here's the kicker, you could take Outrider/Spearhead/Etc. detachments and not pay the troop tax at all, or you could take gretchin, eliminating the trukks and boyz entirely saving ~300 points toward other higher-tier units, yet you don't.
Again, you're the ones claiming nobody takes them in tournament winning lists (hasty generalization), whereas I have shown they are taken, and I only need 1 example to prove the contradiction (e.g. if p => q, ~q => ~p)
Again, you refer to an old edition which is a) irrelevant and b)straw man as I never made any claims about editions 2-8.
You say I need to show multiple examples, yet you haven't gone thru BCP and shown that TBs aren't in every list (the burden of proof is on you, not me. I only need the single example to show the contradiction). Furthermore, boyz absent from a list are not proof that they suck and need a buff, it's only evidence that there are better options.
Joking aside, I was rather bored at the last tournament. All my games ended turn 1 and turn 2 so I was stuck waiting for 1+ hour for my next matchup each time.
Looks like there yet another is a tournament-winning list by somebody named "SemperMortis" that takes 3 of them
We can actually see that boyz suck through other things, we don’t see boyz, Snagga boyz, lootas, burnas, and in most cases stormboyz being taken. The boy stat line is just sort of bad for the price.
They’re bad because in earlier editions boyz were able to actually do stuff as troops, but the modern game design doesn’t let troops be anything but utility.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
The whole argument is "Boyz suck and nobody takes them because they aren't OP like the rest of the units my 20-0 alpha strike list". Yet you take three of them (self contradiction). Here's the kicker, you could take Outrider/Spearhead/Etc. detachments and not pay the troop tax at all, or you could take gretchin, eliminating the trukks and boyz entirely saving ~300 points toward other higher-tier units, yet you don't.
I take a single unit of boyz in my detachments as a troop tax to get my 3 warbosses and slots for all my Fast attack choices. I then use a once per detachment buff to turn them into Trukk boyz so that they fit into my list as opposed to being a useless unit that does nothing more than occupy space. If I took Grots instead I would go from 3 units of trukkboyz, in trukkz, transporting my warbosses, costing me 480pts to 150pts of useless models that literally can't do anything except hold backfield objectives and pray that nobody shoots at them because they have 7+ saves and melt when looked at, especially with LD4. On top of that, as mentioned, the ork codex isn't littered with Alpha strike units meaning the "savings" would be spent on making kopta/warbiker squads bigger which isn't a good thing since with LD6 and LD7 you want MSU to avoid leadership to the best of your ability. I would also have to take some of those "saved" points and either upgrade my warbosses from foot sloggers to Beastbosses on Squigosaurs which both cost more points and don't synergize with my list thanks to the beastsnagga keyword. So just in warbosses, I go from spending 90-100pts per warboss to 145pts for Beastbosses on squigosaurs, So that 330pts of savings from not taking trukkboyz gets cut to about 185pts, and now instead of having 3 alpha strike units I have 3 useless units that don't do much. So those 185pts can go into what? 3 more deffkoptas? 7ish more warbikes? I don't want to increase my Kommando squads past 10 because of blast rules....so what do I spend those points on that would directly benefit an alpha strike list? So you are talking about an army and a play style you fundamentally don't understand if you think taking other cheaper troops would be better. And as far as just Not taking troops at all and going outrider/spearhead...yeah, I could theoretically do this but I then lose out on a lot of CP and can only afford 2 detachments instead of 3 which means I also lose a warboss who are arguably one of the best units in our codex atm. Maybe I'm missing something, so please explain, what do I do with those points in a competitive list? What do I do for CP on the strats I do use if I don't take troops?
brainpsyk wrote: Again, you're the ones claiming nobody takes them in tournament winning lists (hasty generalization), whereas I have shown they are taken, and I only need 1 example to prove the contradiction (e.g. if p => q, ~q => ~p)
If I used an absolute, my apologies, I should have said "almost nobody". And 1 example proves nothing since as shown, Tau won a top placing in a tournament, that in and of itself is not evidence that the Tau army is "competitive" its just a piece of anecdotal evidence.
brainpsyk wrote: Again, you refer to an old edition which is a) irrelevant and b)straw man as I never made any claims about editions 2-8.
Your claim is that a required unit is competitive/ok because it HAS to be taken or there aren't any better options to replace it. I showed an example of that not being the case, if you want a 9th edition version of that exact same argument, look at MSU troops choices taken by a host of factions. Case and point, the recent Portal Fall GT which was won by Daniel Wohlmuth where he won 1st place utilizing a Battalion filled with MSU SOB squads where 1 squad had 1 heavy/special weapon and that was it. Total troops was 15 models totaling 170pts. He took 3 squads of Sisters of battle, does that mean they are good? or is it just the cheapest/most effective troops choice he was required to take to save CP?
brainpsyk wrote: You say I need to show multiple examples, yet you haven't gone thru BCP and shown that TBs aren't in every list (the burden of proof is on you, not me. I only need the single example to show the contradiction). Furthermore, boyz absent from a list are not proof that they suck and need a buff, it's only evidence that there are better options.
1: 40kstats records all GTs/Majors as opposed to BCP which records all tournaments which isn't a good metric since it includes 8-12 person tournaments where 1-2 people might bring net lists while everyone else is bringing fluffy lists or sub par lists. Only downside to 40kstats is their admins are a bit lazy, atm they only have up to September recorded which leaves october and november up in the air. And in 40kstats the last time a Trukk Boyz (TB is Short for Tankbusta) appeared was.....christ I got bored looking, not in September entirely. Oh! I found it. Back in August right after the codex got released, Rich Kilton, who is currently ranked 4th in the ITC rankings for Ork players and 99th in the world played a single list that had 2 units of trukkboyz in it. He also fielded multiple MSU boyz squads and afterwards never placed again with that list. So when you say the burden of proof is on me...well no, you provided one list where they appeared, I provided 1 more. So between the codex coming out and right now 2 lists out of hundreds have used Trukk boyz. That is proof positive of the point I made. Your failure to grasp this point shows either a lack of understanding of the ork army, or a willful disregard for facts.
2: Boyz not appearing in lists on a regular basis even as a required Troop tax meaning the player has to expend CP in order NOT to take boyz is in fact proof that they are bad and in need of a buff. Competitive players routinely will give up CP in order to not have to spend any points on boyz or grots because they are literally that bad.
SemperMortis wrote: And just for the nail in the coffin:
Joking aside, I was rather bored at the last tournament. All my games ended turn 1 and turn 2 so I was stuck waiting for 1+ hour for my next matchup each time.
Looks like there yet another is a tournament-winning list by somebody named "SemperMortis" that takes 3 of them
Yes, a local tournament not a GT/RTT. Sadly because of family and job requirements I have not been able to attend a single GT this year. So if we are going to water down the metric of success of a unit to any tournament, then almost every single unit in the game is competitive because I can likely find some muppet who placed in a FLGS tournament with a ridiculous list...anecdotally, like the time I won a tournament in 7th using a ridiculous Killakan/deff/morkanaut list. those were some of the worst units in 7th edition for orkz, but I still won due to drawing really bad opponents and luck That is why Anecdotes are not themselves evidence and must be taken with a large grain of salt. In order for them to have any value they must also be lumped together with substantiating evidence or a host of other anecdotes.
), and even Plague and Rubric marines are just ok compared to other units. Even 
Furthermore, if that 40 years should have taught you anything, it's that the past is the past, what once was is not what is NOW. Time to move on.
.
Your failure to grasp this point shows either a lack of understanding of the ork army, or a willful disregard for facts.