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I agree with Silverstu. If banshees don't get improvements to their ability to wound they will remain irrelevant to the army. If these rumours are correct then they will hit like a hammer, but will still fall apart under any sustained attack, which is at it should be.

I'm not concerned about specific strength values. Giving aspects strength 4 doesn't mean they're all space marines suddenly, but it would reflect their precision application of force and very advanced powered armour. If it were strength 3 and+2 from their swords it would have the same effect. This isn't an RPG so I'm not bothered either way.

Hopefully scorpions will have enough durability to tough it out.

Someone on the Reddit has clarified that Banshees are base S3 and scorpions are base 4

With those rules Banshees are gonna cost a bomb in points for sure. Closest point of reference I have is to a Sicarian Ruststalker, they're absolute blenders but even they cant top that ability list and they're 19pts each.

At least you guys won't have to buy new models, Banshees are already plastic right? From when they updated Jain Zar?

But damn:
+1 to wound
-1 to hit
Advance and charge
Can't be overwatched
Power swords AND pistols

Less attacks than a Ruststalker but so much more utility. Course we don't know if all those abilities are free and built-in. Some of them could be strategms as is the trend.

All seems plausible to me.

Khahandran wrote:
Someone on the Reddit has clarified that Banshees are base S3 and scorpions are base 4

That user has been commenting other stuff on the codex too, seems to mostly agree on the leaks but keeps clarifying little details. Unverified of course. Here's some of their recent posts:

"The version I've seen is str3 with +1 from power sword like every other power sword in the game. It might have changed which I will very happy if it did"
"Banshees are str4 after the boost from power swords, scorpions are str 5 after the boost from chain blades"

"Before anyone gets their hopes up of running corsairs as your troops choice, they can only be used as your compulsory battleline role if the whole detachment is corsairs.
My source says rangers are troops and shroud runners are fast attack"

<questions on Fire Dragons>
"Still elite, str9 fusion gun"
"Same range, same shots. Don't have to be within half range to get the +2 to damage"

Starcannons:
"Str7 ap3 D2 2 shots"

Wraithknight:
"5+ invulnerable 4+ with shield"

tneva82 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

You should at least be able to build a full aspects army if you so chose.

Well you can even if these rumours were true. Or was there rumoured cap on max aspects you can field?

If no aspects are troops, is kinda hard to.ff.

Might want to check rules.

Might want to build regular detachments and them to be like the fluff says armies of the faction are.

I mean, throwing some random Aspect Warriors into troops in any ol' Craftworld army isn't terribly fluffy at all.

I am sure GW'll revive the Windrider Host and Aspect Host in some shape or form as they do in every edition, but it hopefully will and should in turn impose restrictions such as actually running all-Aspect Warriors if you're going down that path.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
I mean, throwing some random Aspect Warriors into troops in any ol' Craftworld army isn't terribly fluffy at all

I mean, having avengers as troops for six editions didn't seem to be a problem.

Well, Scatter-Bike Troops didn't create fluffy armies in 7th for the most part, the possibility of a fluffy Windrider Host (that nobody ended up building) notwithstanding.

Space Marine Scouts got moved as well. Etc..

The game's not gonna improve if you don't change it.

Maybe DA in troops didn't hurt anyone. It certainly wasn't fluffy either. Similar to how adding some Tau to a Craftworld army wasn't a problem. But it wasn't very thematic either and the game certainly improved by removing that option.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Scatter-Bike Troops didn't create fluffy armies in 7th for the most part, the possibility of a fluffy Windrider Host (that nobody ended up building) notwithstanding.

Space Marine Scouts got moved as well. Etc..

The game's not gonna improve if you don't change it.

Maybe DA in troops didn't hurt anyone. It certainly wasn't fluffy either. Similar to how adding some Tau to a Craftworld army wasn't a problem. But it wasn't very thematic either and the game certainly improved by removing that option.

How was it not fluffy? They're the generalist professional warriors of the eldar armies, how is that not "troops"?

IT's like saying that tactical marines are too specialized to be troops, or something.

So still better to just use harlequin patrol detachment for your blender infantry. Still nice to see a boost to aspects. But harlequins still are the top murder clown Eldar for hand to hand and probably always will be. They’ll have superior movement rules, more brutal close combat options and fusion pistols. They’re what a banshee wishes they could be.

Or generalist professional warriors such as Sternguard Veterans. Or Astra Militarum Veteran Squads. Or Sororitas Celestians. Or Chaos Chosen. Etc..

Generalist professional warriors all of them.

 Albertorius wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Well, Scatter-Bike Troops didn't create fluffy armies in 7th for the most part, the possibility of a fluffy Windrider Host (that nobody ended up building) notwithstanding.

Space Marine Scouts got moved as well. Etc..

The game's not gonna improve if you don't change it.

Maybe DA in troops didn't hurt anyone. It certainly wasn't fluffy either. Similar to how adding some Tau to a Craftworld army wasn't a problem. But it wasn't very thematic either and the game certainly improved by removing that option.

How was it not fluffy? They're the generalist professional warriors of the eldar armies, how is that not "troops"?

IT's like saying that tactical marines are too specialized to be troops, or something.

Aspects are the equivalent in social and military standing to marines, guardians are to guardsmen. Would you have marines as troops in a guard army?

It actually is odd. Guardians are basically National Guard. Having them being the mainstay of your army over warriors that are your frontline troops is a little strange.
I could see it happening but they need to diversify the Troop slot more than current.
Otherwise, you could take a page out of DA codex for each craftworld. Biel Tan aspects get obsec and +3CP refunded if warlord leads vanguard. Iyanden with wraith constructs, saim hann with bikes in Outrider, etc.

 Albertorius wrote:

How was it not fluffy? They're the generalist professional warriors of the eldar armies, how is that not "troops"?

IT's like saying that tactical marines are too specialized to be troops, or something.

Amusingly it's Guardians that are the generalist warriors, and aspect warriors that are the specialist warriors.

That's why the latter have largely fixed wargear & roles but guardians can still choose between melee or shooting plus a heavy weapon platform.

Ya know, as long as DA have the CORE keyword (like a TON on non-troop Marine units do) that's probably enough to keep them the fluffy backbone of many Armies. It's just that you'll either have to field MORE Guardians (which is also fluff appropriate) or take Vanguard detachments.
It's not as bad this edition since you don't HAVE to take Battalions to squeeze in as many CPs. Sure it's still less CPs, but not nearly as fewer than 8th.

That said, I'm still annoyed. I used exclusively jetbikes as my Troops since 5th ed. When they were moved to FA, I was forced to buy more models just to have viable Troops.
Guess which 2 unit types I chose. DAs and Rangers.

That alone makes me hope Windriders become Troops again, just so I don't have to buy a bunch of Guardians to build and paint up. WRs aren't nearly as bad as they were in 7th because the no longer have move-shoot-move (aside from a SINGLE unit using Fire and Fade) nor do they have the 48" turboboost.
With the power creep of other Codices, WRs as Troops now would be pretty tame.

-

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Or generalist professional warriors such as Sternguard Veterans. Or Astra Militarum Veteran Squads. Or Sororitas Celestians. Or Chaos Chosen. Etc..

Generalist professional warriors all of them.

Literally defined as elites in their own factions, no matter ho generalists. Dire Avengers, OTOW, are literally the standing regular troopers of a craftworld, while guardians are drafted militia.

So, no, no cookie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Aspects are the equivalent in social and military standing to marines, guardians are to guardsmen. Would you have marines as troops in a guard army?

I literally would have a single Imperium army, honestly, probably working as it did in Epic 40k back in the day: separate detachments with their own organization, but that you could mix and match.

So no, because the organization is different, yes in their own detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

How was it not fluffy? They're the generalist professional warriors of the eldar armies, how is that not "troops"?

IT's like saying that tactical marines are too specialized to be troops, or something.

Amusingly it's Guardians that are the generalist warriors, and aspect warriors that are the specialist warriors.

That's why the latter have largely fixed wargear & roles but guardians can still choose between melee or shooting plus a heavy weapon platform.

1 ) Guardians are militia.
2) Not with that basic weapon they're not. They're plattform escorts. Which is something you could do with militia, yes.

Again, Dire Avengers have been troops for 7 editions and non-existend for one (in 2nd all aspects were simply squads). Why is now suddenly a problem?

If the reason is "because you already have dire avengers and don't have our new shiny troops that we want to sell you"... well, feth off. Make me want to buy those shiny new troops then.

If DAs are truly getting AP-2, 3shot catapults and all Aspects are getting ++ saves, I could see them as Elites.
And if Guardians are getting 4+ armour and 18" AP-1 catapults, that makes them BETTER than DAs are currently.

That said, it would have been SMART of GW to keep DAs as Troops if this release is coming with a bunch of plastic Aspect warriors. They could make serious bank from all the people wanting to collect an ALL Aspect warrior army. But without an Aspect Troop, they are missing an opportunity.

I'm sure plastic Aspects will sell plenty, but imagine how many more DA kits they could sell alongside.

-

We'll see how much (if any) of this is true anyways.

 Galef wrote:
If DAs are truly getting AP-2, 3shot catapults and all Aspects are getting ++ saves, I could see them as Elites.
And if Guardians are getting 4+ armour and 18" AP-1 catapults, that makes them BETTER than DAs are currently.

For me that's the equivalent of having all custodes infantry be Elites. Eldar are an army of elite troops, as are marines, as are harlequins, etc, etc. The Elite tag in 40k list construction should be reserved for a battlefield role within each codex. DA certainly don't fit that bill, given that they've been noted consistently as the most numerous aspect and fill a mid-field objective securing role.

Argue whatever you want. If they buff the Dire Avengers enough they become elites for game purposes. The fluff doesn’t rule the game. They’re gonna aim for balancing armies internally and competitively. If that means boosting them a lot and then making them elites. So be it.

If they decide to leave them as troops. Then great. Who cares either way. GW is gonna do whatever they want and you’ll adapt like you have every other edition



Personal opinion - They are basically a superior guardian. They’re not highly specialized troops like banshees or fire dragons. They have superior Shuriken rifles and are the line troops of the Eldar. Guardians are more like auxiliary troops who bolster the main lines of dire avengers and man support weapons.

They should be troops. But if they’re boosted really high then I could see them becoming elites - as in elite troops.

warpedpig wrote:
...as in elite troops.

I think using the CORE keyword is how GW plans to achieve this moving forward.
I have no doubt that DAs will be CORE, whether they stay Troops or move to Elites.

CORE is now how GW wants to represent units that are main-stay fluff units. Troops, it seems, are just units GW wants you to field to represent the most common members of any given faction.

DAs may be the most common Aspect and exist on every Craftworld, but I've always gotten the impression that Guardians (militia/ national guard/ reserves or not) have always been the most numerous of MOST Craftworld hosts. Iyanden and Beil-tan being exceptions, even though they too have always been depicted as having plenty of Guardians.

So DAs being Elites (assuming the buffs are true) but specifically CORE Elites, could make sense.
But I am 100% with you about Windriders hopefully being moved BACK to Troops.
Heck, I'd even be happy if they had 2 types of WRs: Troops that could only get 1 heavy weapon per 3 models and a FA unit that has to have all Shuricannons or Scatter lasers.
Same kit, just different loadout requirements

-

Windriders. At least for Saim hann. Should definitely be troops.

Posted by the other leaker in that Reddit thread regarding fire prism linked fire:

Add two shots to the focused fire profile for the first fire prism for each additional prism. Invuls can't be taken for these shots. The other prisms can't fire their main gun

 Galef wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
...as in elite troops.

I think using the CORE keyword is how GW plans to achieve this moving forward.
I have no doubt that DAs will be CORE, whether they stay Troops or move to Elites.

CORE is now how GW wants to represent units that are main-stay fluff units. Troops, it seems, are just units GW wants you to field to represent the most common members of any given faction.

-

I'm not sure GW had a good idea what it wants to do with core. They just shoved it on everything that was infantry or a dreadnought in the marine codex.
I'm not sure why terminators are considered more mainstay than predators. They applied it sparingly with necrons, but then gave in when they needed to apply a general buff to the army and dumped it on a load more units, but oddly not on the units that make up the actual core of an army. For admech they decided to give it to ballistari but not onagers.

The Black Adder wrote:
For admech they decided to give it to ballistari but not onagers.

Then they took it away from them...

The Black Adder wrote:

 Galef wrote:

warpedpig wrote:
...as in elite troops.

I think using the CORE keyword is how GW plans to achieve this moving forward.
I have no doubt that DAs will be CORE, whether they stay Troops or move to Elites.

CORE is now how GW wants to represent units that are main-stay fluff units. Troops, it seems, are just units GW wants you to field to represent the most common members of any given faction.

-

I'm not sure GW had a good idea what it wants to do with core. They just shoved it on everything that was infantry or a dreadnought in the marine codex.
I'm not sure why terminators are considered more mainstay than predators. They applied it sparingly with necrons, but then gave in when they needed to apply a general buff to the army and dumped it on a load more units, but oddly not on the units that make up the actual core of an army. For admech they decided to give it to ballistari but not onagers.

Core is basically anything but some tanks and random units GW wants to punish and make sure players don't field.

Can they make Wraithseers HQ choices again so we can do all-Wraith armies...

Is this a thing, that units have -1 damage, so in effect a d1 weapon cannot injure or damage them?

If so, I think that I like it. Sort of does armor piercing in a different way. So a LR might ignore also d3 weapons, a predator d2, something like that would seem to make special weapons special.

-1 to a minimum of 1.