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Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Assurman now gives DAs object secured. I wonder if the Phoenix lords will still count as HQs or if they will be considered slot free if mixed with their aspect. If they're still HQs then that will mean that we probably won't be seeing them in play any more than they are currently.
Why would we not see them?
Especially if they hand out some nice buffs to their aspects. And get some buffs to punch at their weight class.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Assurman now gives DAs object secured. I wonder if the Phoenix lords will still count as HQs or if they will be considered slot free if mixed with their aspect. If they're still HQs then that will mean that we probably won't be seeing them in play any more than they are currently.
It looks like all the PLs give their aspects obsec. So they move DAs to the overcrowded elites, but it's ok because Asurmen gives them obsec so they're still like troops. They pointed this out in the Maugan article. I guess it's a nice bone to throw at PLs and their aspects, but I question the utility of obsec on Banshees and scorpions.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Assurman now gives DAs object secured. I wonder if the Phoenix lords will still count as HQs or if they will be considered slot free if mixed with their aspect. If they're still HQs then that will mean that we probably won't be seeing them in play any more than they are currently.
It looks like all the PLs give their aspects obsec. So they move DAs to the overcrowded elites, but it's ok because Asurmen gives them obsec so they're still like troops. They pointed this out in the Maugan article. I guess it's a nice bone to throw at PLs and their aspects, but I question the utility of obsec on Banshees and scorpions.
I figure Banshees and Scorpions would like obsec to deny objectives from other obsec units they might have charged and not quite wiped. Which could be very helpful.
Stormonu wrote: Are aspects still 1W? I would have thought GW would have increased those to 2 - with guardians still at 1.
Only the exarchs I think.
They do have a 5++ to make them a little tougher.
I do hope they stay 1W.
Marines being 2W makes perfect sense, but if you start spreading that around too much, it becomes meaningless as would Dmg2 weapons.
I think the 5++ is a good representation of the Aspects having super natural reflexes combined with incredibly flexible, yet decent armour
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that Assurman now gives DAs object secured. I wonder if the Phoenix lords will still count as HQs or if they will be considered slot free if mixed with their aspect. If they're still HQs then that will mean that we probably won't be seeing them in play any more than they are currently.
I'd be very pleased if Phoenix Lords don't take up a force org slot. Makes it easier to recreate those moments where all the Phoenix Lords appear like in Valedor. I doubt including all of them would be optimal in a 2000pt or lower game but it would be fun to have the option.
Please keep the 3d printing discussions to other threads, and keep this one on Eldar news, thanks!
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Stormonu wrote: Are aspects still 1W? I would have thought GW would have increased those to 2 - with guardians still at 1.
Only the exarchs I think.
They do have a 5++ to make them a little tougher.
I do hope they stay 1W.
Marines being 2W makes perfect sense, but if you start spreading that around too much, it becomes meaningless as would Dmg2 weapons.
I think the 5++ is a good representation of the Aspects having super natural reflexes combined with incredibly flexible, yet decent armour
I still find it odd that Apes with less than 25K years in space can come up with better armor than a species that basically lives forever and has been flying around the galaxy for 60 million years. Said old species makes guns that kill you on the sub-atomic level and put captured stars in their anti-tank rifles, yet they have armor that's about as affective as a Guardsmens Flack jacket....
But, in game terms I'm happy with them as they are. I've been planning out doing a semi-lore friendly Altansar host and given we're getting rules for them in WD soon, I am hopeful that this will include some neat buffs for aspects beyond what is in the book.
Stormonu wrote: Are aspects still 1W? I would have thought GW would have increased those to 2 - with guardians still at 1.
Only the exarchs I think.
They do have a 5++ to make them a little tougher.
I do hope they stay 1W.
Marines being 2W makes perfect sense, but if you start spreading that around too much, it becomes meaningless as would Dmg2 weapons.
I think the 5++ is a good representation of the Aspects having super natural reflexes combined with incredibly flexible, yet decent armour
I still find it odd that Apes with less than 25K years in space can come up with better armor than a species that basically lives forever and has been flying around the galaxy for 60 million years. Said old species makes guns that kill you on the sub-atomic level and put captured stars in their anti-tank rifles, yet they have armor that's about as affective as a Guardsmens Flack jacket....
But, in game terms I'm happy with them as they are. I've been planning out doing a semi-lore friendly Altansar host and given we're getting rules for them in WD soon, I am hopeful that this will include some neat buffs for aspects beyond what is in the book.
It's so they can move better, obviously.
From a fluff perspective, though, my beef is that you'd think a dying race would want better armor to, y'know, not be a dying race.
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From a fluff perspective, though, my beef is that you'd think a dying race would want better armor to, y'know, not be a dying race.
My favourite thing to hate about this:
Farseer Jeff, scrying the future desperately trying to find a path to bring victory without loss of life rolls his magic rune ball which gives him the same message he's dreaded everytime he uses it:
*all signs point to equipping your troops with better armour*
From a fluff perspective, though, my beef is that you'd think a dying race would want better armor to, y'know, not be a dying race.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/16 09:27:30
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Galef wrote: Well shoot. I highly doubt Windriders are getting moved back to Troops if they are included 6 of them AND Guardians in the Combat Patrol. Would be weird to have that many Troops in a CP box.
Oh well. Let's hope Windriders get SOMETHING they can do better that Shining Spears, Shroud Runners or Vypers. Because as it stands, those 3 all beat WRs in some way that it doesn't make sense to take Windriders over the other choices.
Regarding Spiders: I wonder if they Auto-hit like the Autarchs Spinner? The Article didn't mention it, but DID list Abilities: Blast.
I wonder if they left it out or if the Autarch gets a special one.
Even without the Auto-hit, Assault d6 and AP2 are straight upgrades
The Red Hobbit wrote: Do we know if all the heavy aspects are getting T4 or just the Fire Dragons? I would love it if the Scorpions also got T4.
I doubt it. It seems Dragons get T4 because their armour is designed to be a bit heat resistant.
Reapers (who also have heavier plate armour) don't appear to have T4
Scorpions are supposed to be stealthy sneaky, so heavier armour wouldn't make sense (other than the 3+ armour they've always had)
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Here is my problem with that line of logic on the armor and toughness of the models.
You have a race that has basically been doing science for 60 million years (Not to mention recovering technology from a species even more Godlike than they). To me that means that judging them by human standards isn't applicable. Humans heavy armor would be Terminator suits, but there is no reason to think the Eldar couldn't engineer something that is three as strong, 1/1000th as cumbersome and that has absolutely no impact on agility. That's the issue with trying to show a race being spacefarers for tens of millions of years. Their understanding of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Materials, and Engineering would be so alien to humans of the 41st Millennium that it would appear as gibberish to their engineers and scientists.
Remember, pretty much the only abundant material available to Eldar is the psychoplastic Wraithbone.
They don’t have mines. They don’t have planets. They’re effectively living on colossal life rafts.
Perhaps their technology does include ways to use other resources in ways far more efficient than the younger races. But they’d struggle to get hold of said materials in any meaningful amounts. And when Wraithbone resources are solely limited by the number of people you have trained to conjure it from the Warp, why seek anything else?
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I still find it odd that Apes with less than 25K years in space can come up with better armor than a species that basically lives forever and has been flying around the galaxy for 60 million years. Said old species makes guns that kill you on the sub-atomic level and put captured stars in their anti-tank rifles, yet they have armor that's about as affective as a Guardsmens Flack jacket....
Same race also never invented a flashlight
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Galef wrote: Well shoot. I highly doubt Windriders are getting moved back to Troops if they are included 6 of them AND Guardians in the Combat Patrol. Would be weird to have that many Troops in a CP box.
Oh well. Let's hope Windriders get SOMETHING they can do better that Shining Spears, Shroud Runners or Vypers. Because as it stands, those 3 all beat WRs in some way that it doesn't make sense to take Windriders over the other choices.
Regarding Spiders: I wonder if they Auto-hit like the Autarchs Spinner? The Article didn't mention it, but DID list Abilities: Blast.
I wonder if they left it out or if the Autarch gets a special one.
Even without the Auto-hit, Assault d6 and AP2 are straight upgrades
The Red Hobbit wrote: Do we know if all the heavy aspects are getting T4 or just the Fire Dragons? I would love it if the Scorpions also got T4.
I doubt it. It seems Dragons get T4 because their armour is designed to be a bit heat resistant.
Reapers (who also have heavier plate armour) don't appear to have T4
Scorpions are supposed to be stealthy sneaky, so heavier armour wouldn't make sense (other than the 3+ armour they've always had)
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Here is my problem with that line of logic on the armor and toughness of the models.
You have a race that has basically been doing science for 60 million years (Not to mention recovering technology from a species even more Godlike than they). To me that means that judging them by human standards isn't applicable. Humans heavy armor would be Terminator suits, but there is no reason to think the Eldar couldn't engineer something that is three as strong, 1/1000th as cumbersome and that has absolutely no impact on agility. That's the issue with trying to show a race being spacefarers for tens of millions of years. Their understanding of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Materials, and Engineering would be so alien to humans of the 41st Millennium that it would appear as gibberish to their engineers and scientists.
I might be getting my lore wrong here, but where is it stated that Eldar are doing actual research? I always thought Eldar were the epitome of the stagnant decadent empire prototype. So focused on itself and its perceived perfection, that it actively surpresses any form of revolution and progress. Hence the cleanly tread out paths that everyone repeats ad infinitum. Even being an Outcast and a Rebel is a Path.
Technology wise, wasn't it that the Eldar technology was only stuff that the Old Ones simply gave the Eldar and then they lost most of it because the craftworlds were more or less scrambled together at short notice? In comparative terms that is, for people that can live millenia. So the only technological progress they can have is by rediscovering technology on the lost worlds of their old empire.
This is not an argument for or against Eldar being comparatively squishy to Marines. I agree that their playstyle should reflect their almost magic like level of technology. Personally I do think it does fit their background though. If their technology is basically identical to their original requirement, that was battling the Necrontyr, which were numerous, slow and fragile, but extremely dangerously armed with Gauss Weapons basically making armour meaningless. It wouldn't be so stupid to strip armour and try to be so agile, that you simply can't be hit in the first place. However the old ones lost against the Necrons (So Eldar were already outdated and outperformed back then), the Necrons collapsed after killing off their "Gods" and the Eldar reigned supreme in a false believe of greatness. A bit like a billionires Kid that tells you, you just need to work hard enough and you can accomplish anything, while in reality is massivly banked by their parents.
Apart from that, from a playability angle please keep in mind that if the Eldar are supposed to feel like having very powerful weaponry and being extraordinarily fast, agile and hard to corner AND have extreme durabilty on top of that. The only way you can balance them is to make them even more expensive than Custodes. That would mean 90% of Eldar models becoming obsolete for the playerbase. So be careful what you whish for.
The old Eldar did do research; they created the webway after all, extending and perfecting the old ones’ stargate-like system of point to point portals. But I bet that died well before the Fall when they collectively decided they were perfect - what, then, would be the point of maintaining a discipline whose entire basic premise is that you don’t know everything yet? Sounds like an admission of imperfection.
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Also need to consider that part of the cause of The Fall was Mark E Smith. Sorry. Indolence and excess.
Their technology had got to the point where they didn’t need to work, and could immerse themselves in their passions.
This is why Exodites are Exdortes. Think Alien Amish, nicking off to lead a more pastoral existence away from sun and temptation.
Craftworlds are the remains of those with the sense to flee. Given we’re talking centuries and perhaps even millennia of automation, it’s possible that the Eldar just cannot produce the wonder tech they used to have. And they may be a bit Ad Mech in their own right, viewing certain conveniences of old as too dangerous to use, fearing a return to the old ways if they make life too easy.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Also need to consider that part of the cause of The Fall was Mark E Smith. Sorry. Indolence and excess.
Their technology had got to the point where they didn’t need to work, and could immerse themselves in their passions.
This is why Exodites are Exdortes. Think Alien Amish, nicking off to lead a more pastoral existence away from sun and temptation.
Craftworlds are the remains of those with the sense to flee. Given we’re talking centuries and perhaps even millennia of automation, it’s possible that the Eldar just cannot produce the wonder tech they used to have. And they may be a bit Ad Mech in their own right, viewing certain conveniences of old as too dangerous to use, fearing a return to the old ways if they make life too easy.
and I head cannon that all the bestest Eldar deathware was very heavy on the psyker hijinx and not really safe post Fall
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Though I would hasten that it is possible they, unlike the Ad Mech, still understand the “lost” technology, indeed they understand it enough to know precisely why it’s forbidden to use it.
Consider an often mentioned wonder weapon. The ability to send stars nova. Now they may still be able to use that. But when you’re as few and as scattered as the Eldar, facing foes are numerous and widespread as The Imperium? The use of such a weapon might simply be inviting utter destruction from retribution strikes.
Plus one suspects it would really mess up gravity etc, which would affect far more than the target.
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It's important to realise that Eldar experience all things kind of like a human experiences drugs. So whilst depravity and fornication and such are part of their excess, they will excess into anything. So at the height before their fall yes some would have been fornicating like rabid rabbits, but some would have been doing high science and psychic things into the extremes as well.
The thing is they didn't "need" to do anything and could let their minds go wild with the freedom to experience whatever they wanted.
When that birthed Slaanesh it was sudden, so sudden that there was no build up to their fall. One day they were ruling the Galaxy, the next they were broken, confused, cursed and had lost many of their core worlds and powerbase to Chaos.
So there is every chance that many ancient technologies are lost to them. In both terms of being able to rebuild them, but also to potentially even have access to the resources needed to make them. Certainly things like Aspect Warrior Armours are described as living things. However I get the impression that more can be made of the lower tier, its the higher tier ones that are almost unique and impossible to replace. However part of that isn't just the armour design itself, but the minds and experiences and skills of those who wore the armour before. Things that cannot be replaced.
I figure they also do do research, but likely approach it in a very "sane" way compared to the Imperium and because of their already advanced understanding its likely that their research has hit barriers of development. Ergo they've stagnated, but not because of religious reasons like the Imperium, but because they've just hit limits on what they can do.
There are also issues - things like the Webway are not just hard to impossible to replicate, but require messing with Chaos - the very thing that brought about their downfall. I suspect this means not only that they have lost understanding in how it was made, but also don't actually want to mess with it to rediscover that knowledge - at least not without a LOT of precautions and such.
Ultimately I think the thing that holds them back is a generations long depression that is made worse by their extreme long lifespan and their preservation of past lives through armours and the Infinity Circuit. Basically they are held back by extreme fear and depression after the fall. Even though it was so long ago, they still remember it. They are in almost a kind of extreme PTSD.
Which is why the Yinnari story line is interesting because it, rather like the Primaris, is presenting a change to the Eldar story and lore. An evolution as a newer generation push past that trauma and work toward change. Perhaps recapturing worlds; seeding new colonies and more.
Invention and utilization are two different things. You can invent a device that prevents a table saw from cutting off peoples hands, but that doesn’t automatically get it installed in new table saws.
The Eldar may be finding all sorts of new inventions, but you have all these Paths that have preconceived notions on how to do things. Does the baker who’s been perfecting his path for two hundred years want to use your improved oven?
My thoughts are either eldar just aren't physically strong enough to have the heavier armor that astartes use (Heavier armor, more protection, slower, yada yada). Or that pre-Fall, Eldar really didn't care too much about dying, as they were able to reincarnate. Then, after the Fall, their technology was too far gone for them to fully develop overpowered gear and weapons.
Anyways... how like do you think it is we'll start getting special Eldar exclusive models popping up? Orks got Snaggit and the Gorkamorka ork, the necrons have gotten a cryptek and a necron lord, etc. Come on GW, give us a plastic bonesinger
Gotta give GW credit on this one. They could easily have gone the Lieutenant route and kept releasing exclusive autrachs, each with a different aspect weapon.
Instead, they grouped them all together in one set. I mean, sure, you can't technically combine them with the other autarch, but its the thought that counts.
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