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I think the issue many people have with the hammerhead is that unless it's points go up a bit it won't NEED to live past two turns. If you can get two turns of shooting with a hammerhead on some decent targets it will more than likely kill more points than it costs. Even if it barely breaks even it will still have been a massive fire magnet. Anyone facing Tau will be forced to deal with a Hammerhead ASAP, and that is time they aren't focusing on the rest of the army, which has its own value.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I think the issue many people have with the hammerhead is that unless it's points go up a bit it won't NEED to live past two turns. If you can get two turns of shooting with a hammerhead on some decent targets it will more than likely kill more points than it costs. Even if it barely breaks even it will still have been a massive fire magnet. Anyone facing Tau will be forced to deal with a Hammerhead ASAP, and that is time they aren't focusing on the rest of the army, which has its own value.

Better to wait the rest of the rules and the point cost, anyway.

The issue with people moaning about the preview is that they do it on a partial picture, as usual.

Sarouan wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I think the issue many people have with the hammerhead is that unless it's points go up a bit it won't NEED to live past two turns. If you can get two turns of shooting with a hammerhead on some decent targets it will more than likely kill more points than it costs. Even if it barely breaks even it will still have been a massive fire magnet. Anyone facing Tau will be forced to deal with a Hammerhead ASAP, and that is time they aren't focusing on the rest of the army, which has its own value.

Better to wait the rest of the rules and the point cost, anyway.

The issue with people moaning about the preview is that they do it on a partial picture, as usual.

but don't we just get the usual multi-step procedure we see with all these broken units

1: Preview looks broken -"Oh its just part of the picture, you simply can't judge it on that - just wait and see
2: Rules come out in full: "Oh it will be fixed in the Codex - just wait and see"
3: Codex comes out: "Oh it will be fixed in the 2 week faqs - stop moaning and wait and see"
4: Faqs: "Oh its going to be fixed in time, stop moaning and wait and see"

Months go by....and new deadly weapons come as as bad or worse to counter this Op unit...

I do like the idea that we can't judge a gun against all other guns in the game and realize that its an entirely new plateau.

No, no. Its just a partial picture.

Oh, it's a new plateau. But one that's been long, long overdue given all the silly stuff like Ramshackle and AdMech Planes with a 1+ save and -1 damage, and now the Crusher Stampede.

It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days, which equates to some 3000 points of Sisters. Assuming you don't get Hive Guarded first.

It's a new plateau, but a profile they should by FAQ slap on all lascannons, melta, mining lasers, etc.. to make the game playable again.

Voss wrote:
I do like the idea that we can't judge a gun against all other guns in the game and realize that its an entirely new plateau.

No, no. Its just a partial picture.

Yeah, even in a best-case scenario where this unit is somehow balanced, we're still seeing the return of D-weapons, which were among the least-fun elements of 7th edition.

 vipoid wrote:

Voss wrote:
I do like the idea that we can't judge a gun against all other guns in the game and realize that its an entirely new plateau.

No, no. Its just a partial picture.

Yeah, even in a best-case scenario where this unit is somehow balanced, we're still seeing the return of D-weapons, which were among the least-fun elements of 7th edition.

D-Weapons weren't the problem. Unkillable units like Screamer Stars, etc.. were the problem, which we've seen return in the shape of the Crusher Stampede, Ork Buggy spam, etc.. D-Weapons where an (undeniably clumsy) attempt to fix that issue in 7th.

You need to be able to kill stuff to have a game. If you can build armies that not every Codex can reliably kill quickly enough to still be relevant to the game scoring, you get 7th Edition.

Remember the post also stated that this was not the strongest weapon. So what do think is?

vicia wrote:
Remember the post also stated that this was not the strongest weapon. So what do think is?

Stormsurge gun, probably.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

vicia wrote:
Remember the post also stated that this was not the strongest weapon. So what do think is?

Stormsurge gun, probably.

Ughhh I hate that model :(

vicia wrote:
Remember the post also stated that this was not the strongest weapon. So what do think is?

Stormsurge is the incredibly obvious answer, once you remember that unit even exists :p

Sunny Side Up wrote:

vicia wrote:
Remember the post also stated that this was not the strongest weapon. So what do think is?

Stormsurge gun, probably.

Along with the Supremacy railgun on the Gunrigs.

Just what are these aircraft/ships here? They're not Tigersharks and they don't appear to match anything I can find.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Just what are these aircraft/ships here? They're not Tigersharks and they don't appear to match anything I can find.

Doesn't look like any Tau flyer I recognise. It kind of looks like the codex flyer without the drones in the wing but with a completely different back end.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Just what are these aircraft/ships here? They're not Tigersharks and they don't appear to match anything I can find.

look like a mix of the old Forgeworld Transport and the aircraft

Those are some pretty neet Crusade rules.

Yeah, I'm guessing that's either something that's meant to be between an Orca and a Manta or replacing the Orca entirely.

 Ordana wrote:

vicia wrote:
Remember the post also stated that this was not the strongest weapon. So what do think is?

Stormsurge is the incredibly obvious answer, once you remember that unit even exists :p

And specifically the pulse blast cannon (the titan shotgun that used to be 4 shots S-D when they anchored at short range).
I reckon the pulse driver will be more shots but not as big individually as the hammerhead railgun.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days...

Lot of people bringing Harridans these days, hey?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days...

Lot of people bringing Harridans these days, hey?

I mean...

123 shots
123/2 hits (hitting on a 3+ with a -1 from Hard To Hit)
123/4 wounds
123/4 failed saves
861/8 damage, or 107 damage.

How do you get 123 Melta Shots needed to kill a Harridan? They have 34 Wounds. By my count, you need 10 failed saves (down to 6-7 in Melta Range) which is 10 wounds, 20 hits, and 40-60 shots, depending on BS.

I don't care about the maths, I just doubt that Harridans, and ancient FW kit that next to no one owns, is a real problem in 40k now. Bringing them up as an example is pretty silly.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days...

Lot of people bringing Harridans these days, hey?

People seem to believe they will work well in the new Crushing Swarm monster mash.

 Ordana wrote:
People seem to believe they will work well in the new Crushing Swarm monster mash.

Yes I know, but, again, do we really think that's going to happen? It's a Harridan, FFS. Not exactly the most common thing in the world to have lying around.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't care about the maths, I just doubt that Harridans, and ancient FW kit that next to no one owns, is a real problem in 40k now. Bringing them up as an example is pretty silly.

Personally I'm waiting for the old Genestealer limousine to be used as an example.


Everyone is talking about the railgun but I'm waiting for the codex to say that the Tau are immune to psycker abilities. That is when the real fun starts.

 Ahtman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't care about the maths, I just doubt that Harridans, and ancient FW kit that next to no one owns, is a real problem in 40k now. Bringing them up as an example is pretty silly.

Personally I'm waiting for the old Genestealer limousine to be used as an example.


Everyone is talking about the railgun but I'm waiting for the codex to say that the Tau are immune to psycker abilities. That is when the real fun starts.

Tau are almost psychic blanks, but not quite. Having a minor ability to shrug off wounds in the psychic phase would be okay with me. Something like what Custodes currently have. A 6+ fnp save in the psychic phase isn't much, but helps their infantry a bit.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't care about the maths, I just doubt that Harridans, and ancient FW kit that next to no one owns, is a real problem in 40k now. Bringing them up as an example is pretty silly.

Personally I'm waiting for the old Genestealer limousine to be used as an example.


Everyone is talking about the railgun but I'm waiting for the codex to say that the Tau are immune to psycker abilities. That is when the real fun starts.

Tau are almost psychic blanks, but not quite. Having a minor ability to shrug off wounds in the psychic phase would be okay with me. Something like what Custodes currently have. A 6+ fnp save in the psychic phase isn't much, but helps their infantry a bit.

From what I've read, T'au show up in the warp, just not very strongly. If a demon is looking to eat something. A Human's soul is like an all you can eat buffet, whereas the T'au's soul is a little snack. Barely worth the effort to eat.

But that shouldn't make them immune to psychic stuff. They do also already have a FNP though, so that's something.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days...

Lot of people bringing Harridans these days, hey?

I mean...

123 shots
123/2 hits (hitting on a 3+ with a -1 from Hard To Hit)
123/4 wounds
123/4 failed saves
861/8 damage, or 107 damage.

How do you get 123 Melta Shots needed to kill a Harridan? They have 34 Wounds. By my count, you need 10 failed saves (down to 6-7 in Melta Range) which is 10 wounds, 20 hits, and 40-60 shots, depending on BS.

Add in 5++, -1dam per attack(so 2.5 long range, 4.5 at melta range) and 6+++.

123 shots, half miss, half fail to wound, 2/3 goes through save.

Though even at long range still seems to be something missing as I get around 42 wounds in at long range. Of course there could be something else I'm missing from the new supplement(or main tyranid codex).

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
People are really acting as if a Hammerhead will live longer than a single turn in 40k's most lethal edition huh

They will if the Tau have killed everything that can kill them.

No melee unit is reaching them in one turn, and, again, the game has a plethora of reserve tricks to prevent them from being alphaed (Like people used to do with eradicators when they were good enough to take).

This thing eats the meta choices for lunch. Raiders? Dead. Talos? Dead. Dreadnoughts? Dead.

And I suspect this super gun is the reason behind the absolute bonkers choice of perma transhuman on wave serpents that is rumored to be a thing. Cause the eldar rules writer went "What, there's something another writing is doing that can kill my precious Eldar? DENIED!"

 cuda1179 wrote:
I think the issue many people have with the hammerhead is that unless it's points go up a bit it won't NEED to live past two turns. If you can get two turns of shooting with a hammerhead on some decent targets it will more than likely kill more points than it costs. Even if it barely breaks even it will still have been a massive fire magnet. Anyone facing Tau will be forced to deal with a Hammerhead ASAP, and that is time they aren't focusing on the rest of the army, which has its own value.

What is more likely to happen, at least competitively, is that any good targets for a hammerhead simply disappear from meta lists. Now this does trash some armies out of the meta, custodes unable to use telemons is rough, marine competetive lists are living and dying on the back of their dreadnoughts, and even deldar use a mass of undercosted good stuff that will be absolutely massacred by this gun. But once these are all suppressed, the hammerhead has no place in a list, and will, itself, disappear for want of a target (Unless they made the stupid ass choice of making it simultaneously good at killing infantry). Which will inspire some real meta nerds to put back in the stuff it kills on a tournament to tournament basis since Tau won't have hammerheads because their targets all left the meta. Provided lesser tau shooting doesn't still trash tanks while trashing infantry too, which is the Riptide problem.

Like this gun is kinda overkill, the Tau might not need it at all to suppress armor.

What is going to suck for most players is that they aren't meta chasing tournament goers, and everyone that has added a tank or two to their fun army simply can't play against this. I worry about the drukhari problem of: Even in casual games the drukhari are too strong and almost all their options are good, so two casual lists will lead to a drukhari victory every time. But with the eldar rumors and this, maybe drukhari is actually where GW is shooting the meta to be, and sucks for every other book released without this power spike.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Oh, it's a new plateau. But one that's been long, long overdue given all the silly stuff like Ramshackle and AdMech Planes with a 1+ save and -1 damage, and now the Crusher Stampede.

It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days, which equates to some 3000 points of Sisters. Assuming you don't get Hive Guarded first.

It's a new plateau, but a profile they should by FAQ slap on all lascannons, melta, mining lasers, etc.. to make the game playable again.

I mean, I am looking at a new book that's genius idea is that every weapon in it should be 2 damage. Whoops everything important is -1 damage.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
It takes something like 123 Melta-shots on average to kill a Harridan these days...

Lot of people bringing Harridans these days, hey?

I mean, they might when every big nid bug is -1 damage. The cycle of GW introducing more rules to fix the problems of their old rules instead of just fixing their rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
People seem to believe they will work well in the new Crushing Swarm monster mash.

Yes I know, but, again, do we really think that's going to happen? It's a Harridan, FFS. Not exactly the most common thing in the world to have lying around.

I play an army that GW expect you to invest in Forgeworld to be any good and, like, people are largely okay with that, so don't think GW won't push people to forgeworld up

Gw wants people to go away from fw to more profitable plastic.

tneva82 wrote:
Gw wants people to go away from fw to more profitable plastic.

Then they need to nerf Volkite if that's the plan.