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Daedalus81 wrote: The HH has no tangible benefit from Montka
Reroll 1 to wound is a pretty tangible benefit for a weapon that is going to wound on a 2+ pretty often and at worst a 3+ (without transhuman nonsense, but that usually costs the defender CP.)
Mont'ka is only if your shooting at the closest target within 18/12/9.
Its not really relevant to a HH.
Spoletta wrote: It is going to be a good tech against 4++ models, but against other stuff it doesn't reach the firepower of its competitors, and is also far easier to kill and hard to move (it will lose FLY in the codex).
It's a good balance. People are scared because it is good against current meta picks.
They're scared because they're not thinking rationally, there's a lot of unknowns and the reality is there are other units out there with worse output as shown, but the magical ignores invuln and the point and click removal worries people beyond their ability to take a step back and contemplate point costs, terrain, deployment, counter striking etc.
Or, perhaps, they don't want the game to devolve into "who gets the hit in first wins"
Like I've illustrated, I can win (in the sense that I achieve objectives) against a HH spam list with my Chaos Daemons. But I don't think either of us would have fun in that sort of game.
You don't just line units up in the open for a Hammerhead to also line up in the open and take pot shots at from across the table though. 3 hammerheads are not going to decide who wins turn 1 any more than 3 units of 3 eradicators, a shadowsword or anything else with gross output.
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH has no tangible benefit from Montka
Reroll 1 to wound is a pretty tangible benefit for a weapon that is going to wound on a 2+ pretty often and at worst a 3+ (without transhuman nonsense, but that usually costs the defender CP.)
Mont'ka is only if your shooting at the closest target within 18/12/9.
Its not really relevant to a HH.
So, which is it? Will I be close enough to charge or too far away for Mont'Ka?
Insectum7 wrote: The thing is there are already units out there that do stupid amounts of damage. The main difference here is that it's all rolled into one gun. A Leman Russ has four guns, one of which can fire twice. Devastators the same. The Hammerhead just has ONE gun, but somehow it's expected to fulfill the same role of fire support. Therefore the single gun is a big beefy one.
The main thing it has going for it is range, imo. Many of the other big lethality attacks out there are shorter range.
The difference is there are things I can do against a Russ.
The Russ's CP rerolls and army buffs don't go as far as they do with a hammerhead.
My -1 to-hit hurts a Russ with no native rerolls than it does a Hammerhead with a single native reroll, and a single important shot.
My saves don't matter at all, while the matter a lot against a Russ.
Let me put it this way:
A Russ Tank Commander Demolisher, on average, will do 7 shots, 5 hits (rounding up), 3 wounds (rounding up), and 2 d6 damage hits (rounding up) to a Keeper of Secrets with a 4++ for an average damage of 7. One CP reroll shifts that average very slightly, as do any other rerolls - and I rounded up in every case there was a fraction. It will take the Tank Commander 3 turns of shooting to down a Keeper if the Russ gets lucky and hits on its side of the averages every single turn. More likely, it will take 4 or 5 turns, as the KOS either has a Feel No Pain, a Heal, or both.
A HH with BS 4+ will do 11 damage to a Keeper of Secrets 62% of the time, and with BS 3+ 74% of the time. One CP reroll (say, on an unlucky 1 to wound) shifts these probabilities even higher and more dramatically than it would for a Russ. It will take the Hammerhead 2 turns of shooting to down a Keeper if the HH rolls exactly average. Neither FNP nor Healing nor both can stop this from happening, as it would be 20-24 wounds total and the Keeper will heal either d3 once or save ~4 of them (rounding up) on her 6++, leaving it dead.
Remember, the HH is cheaper than the Russ (currently), and the Russ's damage will always tend much closer to the averages than it will towards the extremes because of how rolling many dice at once work. You will very rarely get a massive damage spike.
I think it's safe to assume that the HH cost will go up.
The LR Demolisher, in addition to it's main gun, can also pack 2 Multimeltas and a Lascannon. The HH doesn't have anything else other than Drones, is that right? Does it have a Burst Cannon? I forget.
I'm also looking at Devastators who, when armed with Multimeltas manage (what are the defensive stats of a KoS, T7 4++?) Let's see . . .
At 24": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×3.5+(4
×0.83×0.666×0.5×3.5) = 8.5w
At 12": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×5.5+(4
×0.83×0.666×0.5×5.5) = 13.39w
Spoletta wrote: It is going to be a good tech against 4++ models, but against other stuff it doesn't reach the firepower of its competitors, and is also far easier to kill and hard to move (it will lose FLY in the codex).
It's a good balance. People are scared because it is good against current meta picks.
They're scared because they're not thinking rationally, there's a lot of unknowns and the reality is there are other units out there with worse output as shown, but the magical ignores invuln and the point and click removal worries people beyond their ability to take a step back and contemplate point costs, terrain, deployment, counter striking etc.
Or, perhaps, they don't want the game to devolve into "who gets the hit in first wins"
Like I've illustrated, I can win (in the sense that I achieve objectives) against a HH spam list with my Chaos Daemons. But I don't think either of us would have fun in that sort of game.
You don't just line units up in the open for a Hammerhead to also line up in the open and take pot shots at from across the table though. 3 hammerheads are not going to decide who wins turn 1 any more than 3 units of 3 eradicators, a shadowsword or anything else with gross output.
Right, you're indirectly agreeing with me.
First turn has been powerful in 40k for a long time - precisely because of units like the HH that already exist. But instead of showing signs of fixing it, GW is doubling down MORE on the problem. That's my issue with the HH.
On average hammer stats, sure, I don't think its necessarily much more damage than a 3 lance Ravager (points/synergies depending etc). And a 3 lance ravager obviously can hit 3 times, wound 3 times, get 3 wounds through any saves and score 18 damage. But its not likely. You are far more likely to fall along a curve.
This doesn't do that. There is no half measures - its 0 damage or 10-12 damage. And from what we've seen, a very high chance of the 10-12.
We know that 10-12 damage on *loads of things* can get you towards a return of 150-200 points. Which will be a 100%ish return on your points assuming a Hammerhead is somewhere in the region of 160-200ish points.
I feel focusing on the exact specifics are getting lost in the weeds. Okay you are "unlikely" to 1-shot a 12 wound Leman Russ - but if you reduce it 1-2 wounds, you've the rest of your army to chip that off.
I mean we don't have the full picture. Tau could easily be crap. Say this is 250-300 points or something. But it most likely won't play out that way. GW keep doubling down on this idea that if you can shoot at what you want (which is basically a given unless the table is split up by a giant block of polystyrene) killing 1000 points turn 1 is about what you'd expect - and spiking higher will happen about as often as the stats would suggest (i.e. all the time). The fact "but you can also spike lower" doesn't really change this because games are discrete.
For me its 9ths major problem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 18:29:52
Insectum7 wrote: I think it's safe to assume that the HH cost will go up.
The LR Demolisher, in addition to it's main gun, can also pack 2 Multimeltas and a Lascannon. The HH doesn't have anything else other than Drones, is that right? Does it have a Burst Cannon? I forget.
It can have 2 Burst Cannons or two SMS, plus if it gets any additional upgrades in the 'dex (e.g. different types of drones being possible, i.e. missile system drones at str 7 d3 damage).
Insectum7 wrote: I'm also looking at Devastators who, when armed with Multimeltas manage (what are the defensive stats of a KoS, T7 4++?) Let's see . . .
At 24": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×3.5+(4 ×0.83×0.666×0.5×3.5) = 8.5w
Not scared. This barely brackets me, and if they were in MM range and I didn't charge them then they're toast against a Keeper. Immediately and with a huge margin of error (10 [8 in that bracket] attacks, 6 [5] of them wound on twos with rerolls, flat damage 3, -3 AP). Once I kill them, I heal up (because they were non-vehicles) by d3.
Insectum7 wrote: At 12": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×5.5+(4 ×0.83×0.666×0.5×5.5) = 13.39w
Still not scared. If they're within 12", they're still dead - d3 from smite in the psychic phase plus 6 (in this bracket) flat damage 3 attacks at -3 that very nearly auto hit and have a 97% chance to wound. Because I fought them, I can heal off of them (unlike the HH since it is a vehicle).
Insectum7 wrote: 12" + Capt + Lt: 6×0.777×0.777×0.5×5.5+(4 ×0.96×0.777×0.5×5.5) = 18.1w The amount of damage units can put out is just really high in general. The HH puts it all in one gun.
This is a bit scary, it's true, but it's also bringing in other units that I can also counter (f.e. forbidden gem).
The point is that there's counterplay, in your example. The counterplay for a HH is "kill it first" or "hide from it". The first is nigh impossible for a melee army, and the second is "Fun Game /s" territory.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/12/30 18:32:42
Sure, you can get loads of Demolishers - but 9 demolishers is actually weaker than like 3 or 5 and an army around them. You can bring 4 hammerheads with an army around them, too.
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH has no tangible benefit from Montka
Reroll 1 to wound is a pretty tangible benefit for a weapon that is going to wound on a 2+ pretty often and at worst a 3+ (without transhuman nonsense, but that usually costs the defender CP.)
Mont'ka is only if your shooting at the closest target within 18/12/9.
Its not really relevant to a HH.
So, which is it? Will I be close enough to charge or too far away for Mont'Ka?
The units a HH wants to shoot at and the units looking to charge the HH don't have to be the same?
Units that can threaten charges from over 18" away.
Any sort of screen, since Mont'ka requires closest target.
If your going to put Mortarion in front of a Hammerhead within 18" and as the closest target then that is not a problem with the gun, that's a problem with your tactics.
Insectum7 wrote: I'm also looking at Devastators who, when armed with Multimeltas manage (what are the defensive stats of a KoS, T7 4++?) Let's see . . .
At 24": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×3.5+(4
×0.83×0.666×0.5×3.5) = 8.5w
Not scared. This barely brackets me, and if they were in MM range and I didn't charge them then they're toast against a Keeper. Immediately and with a huge margin of error (10 [8 in that bracket] attacks, 6 [5] of them wound on twos with rerolls, flat damage 3, -3 AP). Once I kill them, I heal up (because they were non-vehicles) by d3.
Ok, so 8.5 wounds is "not scared" territory, but 64% chance at 11 wounds is? Sooo. . .
24" MMdevs with Cpt Lt passively nearby:
6×0.777×0.777×0.5×3.5+(4
×0.96×0.777×0.5×3.5) = 11.5. That's Hammerhead damage right there, and outside of KoS "danger zone" presumably.
Insectum7 wrote: I'm also looking at Devastators who, when armed with Multimeltas manage (what are the defensive stats of a KoS, T7 4++?) Let's see . . .
At 24": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×3.5+(4 ×0.83×0.666×0.5×3.5) = 8.5w
Not scared. This barely brackets me, and if they were in MM range and I didn't charge them then they're toast against a Keeper. Immediately and with a huge margin of error (10 [8 in that bracket] attacks, 6 [5] of them wound on twos with rerolls, flat damage 3, -3 AP). Once I kill them, I heal up (because they were non-vehicles) by d3.
Ok, so 8.5 wounds is "not scared" territory, but 64% chance at 11 wounds is? Sooo. . .
24" MMdevs with Cpt Lt passively nearby: 6×0.777×0.777×0.5×3.5+(4 ×0.96×0.777×0.5×3.5) = 11.5. That's Hammerhead damage right there, and outside of KoS "danger zone" presumably.
Not at all, KOS can move 14" and advance and charge. And, you've brought a Captain and a Lieutenant, so presumably spent more than the Hammerhead AND given me counterplay options (since Slaanesh can shut down character auras - come to think of it, this would work on Longstrike too if he has a reason to get that close). Unfortunately, in this case it wouldn't help since HH wounds me on 2s already.
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH has no tangible benefit from Montka
Reroll 1 to wound is a pretty tangible benefit for a weapon that is going to wound on a 2+ pretty often and at worst a 3+ (without transhuman nonsense, but that usually costs the defender CP.)
Mont'ka is only if your shooting at the closest target within 18/12/9.
Its not really relevant to a HH.
So, which is it? Will I be close enough to charge or too far away for Mont'Ka?
The units a HH wants to shoot at and the units looking to charge the HH don't have to be the same?
Units that can threaten charges from over 18" away.
Any sort of screen, since Mont'ka requires closest target.
If your going to put Mortarion in front of a Hammerhead within 18" and as the closest target then that is not a problem with the gun, that's a problem with your tactics.
You know a HH can move 12" before it shoots right? I don't always have control over what model is the closest in the enemy's shooting phase, especially if the larger units all outrun the littler ones. But I generally agree, Mont'ka won't affect the HH much, which is why I didn't include it in my calcs.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/30 18:55:53
What puzzles me a bit is this weird d3 in the damage. It seems a bit... I don't know... pointless to roll a dice? I know the difference between 10 and 12 damage means sometimes a Leman Russ is still barely alive and sometimes not. I just wonder why this has to be. They could have just fixed the damage (as they did with the IG Macharius Vanquisher). In my possibly very stupid gut feeling that would have made it easier to balance and easier to quickly calculate what it does when you meet it on the battlefield. If it would just do 8 damage + 3 MW it would be clear if it hits and wounds a Predator or Chimera is dead, a Leman Russ is still alive. Or if it would be 9 +3MW the LR would be dead if hit and that's it. In both cases everyone involved would know beforehand what it will be. As it is now it will likely suck for the Tau player if he hits and wounds and then rolls a 1, not killing that predator he would have deleted on any other roll. Even if I lack practical experience I don't really see the value of that d3 damage roll at the moment.
Also the flat 9 damage on the Macharius Vanquisher is interesting because it makes the (relatively) good calculated average damage an ambivalent thing, since it only achieves this damage against targets with 9/18/27 wounds, while being less efficient against other numbers.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
Pyroalchi wrote: What puzzles me a bit is this weird d3 in the damage. It seems a bit... I don't know... pointless to roll a dice? I know the difference between 10 and 12 damage means sometimes a Leman Russ is still barely alive and sometimes not. I just wonder why this has to be. They could have just fixed the damage (as they did with the IG Macharius Vanquisher). In my possibly very stupid gut feeling that would have made it easier to balance and easier to quickly calculate what it does when you meet it on the battlefield. If it would just do 8 damage + 3 MW it would be clear if it hits and wounds a Predator or Chimera is dead, a Leman Russ is still alive. Or if it would be 9 +3MW the LR would be dead if hit and that's it. In both cases everyone involved would know beforehand what it will be. As it is now it will likely suck for the Tau player if he hits and wounds and then rolls a 1, not killing that predator he would have deleted on any other roll. Even if I lack practical experience I don't really see the value of that d3 damage roll at the moment.
Also the flat 9 damage on the Macharius Vanquisher is interesting because it makes the (relatively) good calculated average damage an ambivalent thing, since it only achieves this damage against targets with 9/18/27 wounds, while being less efficient against other numbers.
This is a good point too.
If the Macharius Vanquisher did 6 damage +3 mortal wounds, it would be MUCH BETTER of a choice (arguably an autotake among the IG superheavies) compared to just doing 9 wounds - not because it can sneak 3 through vs invulns but because that also means it kills infantry very well.
That's the part that's also weird about the railgun. It's not like it gets much worse return shooting at 3-wound models (kills 2 automatically, essentially) or Daemonettes (kills 4 automatically, which is better than a d6 blast weapon against a unit of 10).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/30 19:06:51
It adds a little "excitement" to
a) have a chance to annihilate your opponent's tank in 1 shot.
b) have a chance that your tank survives your opponent's railgun shot, if only just barely.
Insectum7 wrote: I'm also looking at Devastators who, when armed with Multimeltas manage (what are the defensive stats of a KoS, T7 4++?) Let's see . . .
At 24": 6×0.666×0.666×0.5×3.5+(4
×0.83×0.666×0.5×3.5) = 8.5w
Not scared. This barely brackets me, and if they were in MM range and I didn't charge them then they're toast against a Keeper. Immediately and with a huge margin of error (10 [8 in that bracket] attacks, 6 [5] of them wound on twos with rerolls, flat damage 3, -3 AP). Once I kill them, I heal up (because they were non-vehicles) by d3.
Ok, so 8.5 wounds is "not scared" territory, but 64% chance at 11 wounds is? Sooo. . .
24" MMdevs with Cpt Lt passively nearby:
6×0.777×0.777×0.5×3.5+(4
×0.96×0.777×0.5×3.5) = 11.5. That's Hammerhead damage right there, and outside of KoS "danger zone" presumably.
Not at all, KOS can move 14" and advance and charge. And, you've brought a Captain and a Lieutenant, so presumably spent more than the Hammerhead AND given me counterplay options (since Slaanesh can shut down character auras - come to think of it, this would work on Longstrike too if he has a reason to get that close). Unfortunately, in this case it wouldn't help since HH wounds me on 2s already.
Imo the Captain and Lt are "free" since I'm bringing them anyways. But three such squads still one-shot the KoS.
I think the point is made though, other units do plenty of damage. The issue you're having appears to be counterplay, which imo is just an adjustment that has to be made sometimes. Some combination of reserves and hiding seem like the obvious choices in this case. I'm interested to see how Tau are supposed to hold midfield objectives, personally. Seems tenuous atm.
Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 19:24:31
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
Got anything like "units may not Fall Back"?. "Hiding" in CC is a well worn technique of assault oriented armies.
I don't know Slaanesh Daemons very well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 19:30:03
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
Got anything like "units may not Fall Back"?. "Hiding" in CC is a well worn technique of assault oriented armies.
I don't know Slaanesh Daemons very well.
There's tons of that in Slaanesh, so if I can get stuck in and the enemy survives I can pull that off.
That's a good bit of effort in the Fight phase though (I have to engage things without killing them, which means being careful and clever with movmenet, and make sure to engage them with the Do Not Fall Back Fiends or have the Mirror within 6").
Unfortunately, Fiends do not work on things with Fly, so most of the Tau army is safe from my Do Not Fall Back stuff (except the Mirror, which is vs Leadership). But if I can touch Infantry that aren't battlesuits, and if I can do so without killing them, and if they haven't killed my Fiends and if my Fiends are in the right place to also touch the enemy unit or if I have a mirror within 6" of the unit I don't want to fall back (which is the one I touched that I didn't kill) and if I pass a 3d6 leadership test, then I can probably beat a Hammerhead spam army and protect my models - at least the ones within a few inches of the Mirror.
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 19:46:34
Daedalus81 wrote: The HH has no tangible benefit from Montka
Reroll 1 to wound is a pretty tangible benefit for a weapon that is going to wound on a 2+ pretty often and at worst a 3+ (without transhuman nonsense, but that usually costs the defender CP.)
I don't forsee HH being in position to take advantage of Montka often.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 20:00:41
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
Got anything like "units may not Fall Back"?. "Hiding" in CC is a well worn technique of assault oriented armies.
I don't know Slaanesh Daemons very well.
There's tons of that in Slaanesh, so if I can get stuck in and the enemy survives I can pull that off.
That's a good bit of effort in the Fight phase though (I have to engage things without killing them, which means being careful and clever with movmenet, and make sure to engage them with the Do Not Fall Back Fiends or have the Mirror within 6").
Unfortunately, Fiends do not work on things with Fly, so most of the Tau army is safe from my Do Not Fall Back stuff (except the Mirror, which is vs Leadership). But if I can touch Infantry that aren't battlesuits, and if I can do so without killing them, and if they haven't killed my Fiends and if my Fiends are in the right place to also touch the enemy unit or if I have a mirror within 6" of the unit I don't want to fall back (which is the one I touched that I didn't kill) and if I pass a 3d6 leadership test, then I can probably beat a Hammerhead spam army and protect my models - at least the ones within a few inches of the Mirror.
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
This is one option but it puts the railhead back into "limited use expensive niche unit" since most of what you want to hit has an invuln and all that lovely ap -6 you pay for is rendered useless.
. . .
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
Right, so if the HH didn't ignore invulns, it'd be doing half-ish the damage that the Devs did in my last example against the KoS. The thing about the Devs is that against a similar T, non 4++ target/s, they average DOUBLE that last result. 23 wounds. Their ideal deployment is double that 18-odd in 12". 36 wounds.
I'd argue that if you're not scared of Devs, and they're ok in the game, then the HH is within the realm of ok too.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
Got anything like "units may not Fall Back"?. "Hiding" in CC is a well worn technique of assault oriented armies.
I don't know Slaanesh Daemons very well.
There's tons of that in Slaanesh, so if I can get stuck in and the enemy survives I can pull that off.
That's a good bit of effort in the Fight phase though (I have to engage things without killing them, which means being careful and clever with movmenet, and make sure to engage them with the Do Not Fall Back Fiends or have the Mirror within 6").
Unfortunately, Fiends do not work on things with Fly, so most of the Tau army is safe from my Do Not Fall Back stuff (except the Mirror, which is vs Leadership). But if I can touch Infantry that aren't battlesuits, and if I can do so without killing them, and if they haven't killed my Fiends and if my Fiends are in the right place to also touch the enemy unit or if I have a mirror within 6" of the unit I don't want to fall back (which is the one I touched that I didn't kill) and if I pass a 3d6 leadership test, then I can probably beat a Hammerhead spam army and protect my models - at least the ones within a few inches of the Mirror.
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
This is one option but it puts the railhead back into "limited use expensive niche unit" since most of what you want to hit has an invuln and all that lovely ap -6 you pay for is rendered useless.
You mean like all the other single-shot high damage weapons in the game that don't ignore invulns? Perhaps there's some kind of design issue there that GW should seriously consider...
nah it should just ignore invulns outright, you rite.
. . . Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
Right, so if the HH didn't ignore invulns, it'd be doing half-ish the damage that the Devs did in my last example against the KoS. The thing about the Devs is that against a similar T, non 4++ target/s, they average DOUBLE that last result. 23 wounds. Their ideal deployment is double that 18-odd in 12". 36 wounds.
I'd argue that if you're not scared of Devs, and they're ok in the game, then the HH is within the realm of ok too.
The biggest difference is the range and the lack of saves. If that wasn't clear from me pointing it out before. Yes, T7 targets without invulns are vulnerable to multimeltas - those targets have been since multimeltas existed. They have been less vulnerable to railguns than they are now.
. . .
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
Right, so if the HH didn't ignore invulns, it'd be doing half-ish the damage that the Devs did in my last example against the KoS. The thing about the Devs is that against a similar T, non 4++ target/s, they average DOUBLE that last result. 23 wounds. Their ideal deployment is double that 18-odd in 12". 36 wounds.
I'd argue that if you're not scared of Devs, and they're ok in the game, then the HH is within the realm of ok too.
The biggest difference is the range and the lack of saves. If that wasn't clear from me pointing it out before. Yes, T7 targets without invulns are vulnerable to multimeltas - those targets have been since multimeltas existed.
I think the only real difference is range. Imo the ignore invulns is a wash. The HH maxes at 12 wounds while the Devs max at 36. Other "Big Guns" wind up doing things like using moar shots to remain relevant vs. invulns. Because the Railgun is just one shot, imo ignoring invulns is ok.
Unit1126PLL wrote: First turn has been powerful in 40k for a long time - precisely because of units like the HH that already exist. But instead of showing signs of fixing it, GW is doubling down MORE on the problem. That's my issue with the HH.
I personally think that anti-tank weapons should be good at destroying tanks. It doesn't make much sense to me to require 6 shots from anti-tank weapon to destroy one tank; 2 or 3 should be the norm. The HH has one huge anti-tank gun. It can destroy a tank in 2 or one if it's a lighter tank/transport vehicle and provided it hits which it does around 75% of the time (with some reroll). On a single shot weapon, that's fairly reasonable provided the tank is priced correctly. Where it does seem a bit more cruel is in its capacity to kill particularly pivotal and fancy command monsters like Greater Daemons and Avatars (Hive Tyrants have the benefits of bodyguards so are less included in that list) due to its giant F-you to all armor types except feel no pain. To me the HH is the ideal anti-tank weapon since it shoots a single shot. It cannot be used against any infantry, even ridiculously hardy ones like Custodes or Plague Terminators without wasting its power. Yes, it does have a stratagem that is particularly nasty against all type of infantry and that's actually what I am more worried about, but stratagems like these aren't going to be that bad since I believe the Tau in general will be using their points like crazy in general for markerlights and jump-shoot-jump tricks (that and you can't use it multiple times in the same round from multiple HH). If anti-tank potential was lower across the board, you would end-up back in 8th edition where the meta was dominated by mid-power multiple shot weapons a la autocannon to chip down tanks and still tackle heavy infantry at the same time. I don't think the HH itself is going to be that difficult to destroy nor to bracket. I wonder how Longstrike will affect its performance though.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
Got anything like "units may not Fall Back"?. "Hiding" in CC is a well worn technique of assault oriented armies.
I don't know Slaanesh Daemons very well.
There's tons of that in Slaanesh, so if I can get stuck in and the enemy survives I can pull that off.
That's a good bit of effort in the Fight phase though (I have to engage things without killing them, which means being careful and clever with movmenet, and make sure to engage them with the Do Not Fall Back Fiends or have the Mirror within 6").
Unfortunately, Fiends do not work on things with Fly, so most of the Tau army is safe from my Do Not Fall Back stuff (except the Mirror, which is vs Leadership). But if I can touch Infantry that aren't battlesuits, and if I can do so without killing them, and if they haven't killed my Fiends and if my Fiends are in the right place to also touch the enemy unit or if I have a mirror within 6" of the unit I don't want to fall back (which is the one I touched that I didn't kill) and if I pass a 3d6 leadership test, then I can probably beat a Hammerhead spam army and protect my models - at least the ones within a few inches of the Mirror.
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
This is one option but it puts the railhead back into "limited use expensive niche unit" since most of what you want to hit has an invuln and all that lovely ap -6 you pay for is rendered useless.
You mean like all the other single-shot high damage weapons in the game that don't ignore invulns? Perhaps there's some kind of design issue there that GW should seriously consider...
nah it should just ignore invulns outright, you rite.
And thank you for that constructive input, you're right, let's follow your method and just piss and moan.
Unit1126PLL wrote: First turn has been powerful in 40k for a long time - precisely because of units like the HH that already exist. But instead of showing signs of fixing it, GW is doubling down MORE on the problem. That's my issue with the HH.
I personally think that anti-tank weapons should be good at destroying tanks. It doesn't make much sense to me to require 6 shots from anti-tank weapon to destroy one tank; 2 or 3 should be the norm. The HH has one huge anti-tank gun. It can destroy a tank in 2 or one if it's a lighter tank/transport vehicle and provided it hits which it does around 75% of the time (with some reroll). On a single shot weapon, that's fairly reasonable provided the tank is priced correctly. Where it does seem a bit more cruel is in its capacity to kill particularly pivotal and fancy command monsters like Greater Daemons and Avatars (Hive Tyrants have the benefits of bodyguards so are less included in that list) due to its giant F-you to all armor types except feel no pain. To me the HH is the ideal anti-tank weapon since it shoots a single shot. It cannot be used against any infantry, even ridiculously hardy ones like Custodes or Plague Terminators without wasting its power. Yes, it does have a stratagem that is particularly nasty against all type of infantry and that's actually what I am more worried about, but stratagems like these aren't going to be that bad since I believe the Tau in general will be using their points like crazy in general for markerlights and jump-shoot-jump tricks (that and you can't use it multiple times in the same round from multiple HH). If anti-tank potential was lower across the board, you would end-up back in 8th edition where the meta was dominated by mid-power multiple shot weapons a la autocannon to chip down tanks and still tackle heavy infantry at the same time. I don't think the HH itself is going to be that difficult to destroy nor to bracket. I wonder how Longstrike will affect its performance though.
You realize part of my problem with this guy is he is better against a squad of 10 guardsmen than a d6 Blast Weapon right?
And each shot kills 2 Custodes pretty much guaranteed, whereas a regular Russ struggles to get any damage through at all?
It isn't a "single shot anti-tank weapon". It is a single shot weapon that is good against everything, and especially great against tanks.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yep. Counterplay is limited to hiding (either in reserves or literally).
As a crusade player, I'm only a little bit worried about objectives. The missions are very different and "victory" is not often the same as getting the most victory points.
Got anything like "units may not Fall Back"?. "Hiding" in CC is a well worn technique of assault oriented armies.
I don't know Slaanesh Daemons very well.
There's tons of that in Slaanesh, so if I can get stuck in and the enemy survives I can pull that off.
That's a good bit of effort in the Fight phase though (I have to engage things without killing them, which means being careful and clever with movmenet, and make sure to engage them with the Do Not Fall Back Fiends or have the Mirror within 6").
Unfortunately, Fiends do not work on things with Fly, so most of the Tau army is safe from my Do Not Fall Back stuff (except the Mirror, which is vs Leadership). But if I can touch Infantry that aren't battlesuits, and if I can do so without killing them, and if they haven't killed my Fiends and if my Fiends are in the right place to also touch the enemy unit or if I have a mirror within 6" of the unit I don't want to fall back (which is the one I touched that I didn't kill) and if I pass a 3d6 leadership test, then I can probably beat a Hammerhead spam army and protect my models - at least the ones within a few inches of the Mirror.
Alternatively (now hear me out, I know it's crazy):
The HH could just not ignore invulnerable saves for no reason.
This is one option but it puts the railhead back into "limited use expensive niche unit" since most of what you want to hit has an invuln and all that lovely ap -6 you pay for is rendered useless.
You mean like all the other single-shot high damage weapons in the game that don't ignore invulns? Perhaps there's some kind of design issue there that GW should seriously consider...
nah it should just ignore invulns outright, you rite.
And thank you for that constructive input, you're right, let's follow your method and just piss and moan.
The first step to fixing a problem is to recognize that there is one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 21:59:11
They sort of do, yes fluffwise tau add in auxilia to reinforce their own weaknesses, but in current fluff they're distrusting of them in the 4th sphere following warp shenanigans.
Current fluff takes place during 5th Sphere Expansion. 4th Sphere Vets are quietly being forced to play nice because their xenophobia is anti-Tau philosophy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/30 22:28:34
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