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stratigo wrote:
Trajan and bikes will go up. Maybe achilles too

That is what I'm expecting also. I'm more sceptical about the Achilles because there is nothing oppressive about that unit imo. But there is no question about Trajann and the bikes.

I just hope they don't touch the stratagems too much. As I've said multiple times and don't grow tired of reiterating: our survivability is now very closely tied to our stratagems. If they change them or make them too expensive, it'll really hurt the faction.

Also there's a lot of hyperbole going around especially with the reddit crowd. Nobody is denying that custodes are too good in the competitive scene right now, but in many discussions custodes are brought up as this faction where you literally can't do anything against them and just "play against the dice" because you can't reroll against them and only every wound on 4s. Well yeah, but that's on one unit! You kinda got to try to bait out those strats and then blast something else, ideally another bike squad since apparently you gotta play 3 of them now.

I'm just glad the community has no business in balancing a faction right now, because the screeching mob would probably do an even worse job than GW.

With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Difficult to judge whether Fire Dragons are going to find their way into Eldar lists. They're definitely powerful, but the eldar book is really big, so I think it's going to take a week or two for people to find out what builds are actually viable.

Regarding the dreadnoughts: this is just my opinion, but never think about what the meta is right now when buying models, especially expensive FW ones. Buy the stuff you like and enjoy playing, the meta is always shifting. Last year Venatari were all the rage, now nobody ever plays them really. With that being said however, I think the Galatus and Achillus are both very strong units and will remain very good unless they get an exorbitant price hike or everybody suddenly starts bringing 3 hammerheads or 3 fire prisms.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Galatus have a 4++ so a little tougher. I like them, but I just put one in as a token Eternal Penitent.

Audustum wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Galatus have a 4++ so a little tougher. I like them, but I just put one in as a token Eternal Penitent.

Eternal Penitant doesn't make the Dread a character, does it?

The problem isn't our dreads, even the telemon is basically irrelevant to our most glaring Reddit problems. The PP is one of the best relics I've seen in the game, in 3 editions. Our plastic lineup is SO good, that most people don't even need to go to FW now. Bikes and Shields, Hell even Wardens. Our big strength is our new found flexibility, and seeing as how that was essentially a complete redesign of the core faction style, I don't see how one "scalpels" that instead of just sheer nerfs.

I see them heavily restricting the karate system, and our sub faction bonuses. Maybe we get a points nerf, but even with a points nerf Custodes are still just amazingly flexible or powerful.

How do you put this genie back in the bottle? If GW has a problem with OP factions, I don't think they've decided to do anything about it. DE are still silly. Tau and Eldar are shaping up even more silly. Given the banality of "Ignores invuln" shooting nowadays, I don't see us holding the top spot past the summer.

I don't think they'll be raising the points costs on the Dreads personally, they are not an oppressive unit, are easy to wipe out (especially the Achillus with a 5++) and are one of the very few sources of damage greater than 2 in the army.

Trajann should see a points increase, to be honest I'm still surprised his cost was lowered day 1.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Dreadnoughts are already rarer in the face of tau a lot of podium lists are skipping them for another unit of bikes, but remain fairly good.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The problem isn't our dreads, even the telemon is basically irrelevant to our most glaring Reddit problems. The PP is one of the best relics I've seen in the game, in 3 editions. Our plastic lineup is SO good, that most people don't even need to go to FW now. Bikes and Shields, Hell even Wardens. Our big strength is our new found flexibility, and seeing as how that was essentially a complete redesign of the core faction style, I don't see how one "scalpels" that instead of just sheer nerfs.

I see them heavily restricting the karate system, and our sub faction bonuses. Maybe we get a points nerf, but even with a points nerf Custodes are still just amazingly flexible or powerful.

How do you put this genie back in the bottle? If GW has a problem with OP factions, I don't think they've decided to do anything about it. DE are still silly. Tau and Eldar are shaping up even more silly. Given the banality of "Ignores invuln" shooting nowadays, I don't see us holding the top spot past the summer.

It is highly unlikely they change any rules, except maybe an overall bodyguard change. The praetorian plate is an okay relic. It’s not overpowered. It simply is solid. But there is a reason the praetorian is the first hq cut. Trajan and a bike are both superior.

They just need to find a way to fix the jet bikes. Everything else can be played around. The jet bikes are what elevates Custodes right now to S tier level with their OP win rate. Jet bikes give them a 14 inch move on a super durable unit that shoots damage D3+3 shots and fights well too. Its just too much of a good thing in one package that has zero weaknesses because it flies too. You can't block it, you can't kill it fast enough (for most armies), you can't beat it in combat (because it can choose what it fights). And you can't even psychic mortal wound it to death because of the 4+++.

The Salvos single handedly transformed Custodes into a feared shooting army. Whatever the jet bikes cannot outshoot, they can kill in melee. Whatever they can't kill in melee, they can safely keep away and shoot it to death or let Trajan and company come up and do the work for them while they fly elsewhere and bully other units instead.

Bikes are fine atm except salvo is too cheap. Bump points on salvo launchers and they are where they need to be. Its a dark lance on a model that hits on 2's. 10-15pts would be fair.

Trajann can go to 165pts and if you take him you arent allowed to use Victor of the Blood games (since he has already used it). This is a sufficient nerf for him.

Wardens are not actually winning tournies, they are just in that position where if you fix bodyguard itself (make it so that you cant bodyguard a character unless you also can be shot) then they cause no problems.

Dreads are not really an issue because Tau pick them up comically easy.


Aquillon termies are currently OVERCOSTED for what they bring, which is why you never see them. They can be easily fixed however (and be good from a thematic viewpoint) if you give them +1w and improve the guns a bit. Firepike goes to d6+2 hits and Adrathic goes to dealing a mortal in addition on a 4+ to wound. Now they have a place compared to allarus.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Audustum wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
With Tau on the scene, Eldar Fire Dragons, incoming, etc... do we think Dreads will retain their value? I am debating ordering a couple Achillius or Galatus (already own 3x Telemon), but I keep feeling like 9w, and a 5++ save might as well be paper these days, versus just taking more bikes/infantry.

Galatus have a 4++ so a little tougher. I like them, but I just put one in as a token Eternal Penitent.

Eternal Penitant doesn't make the Dread a character, does it?

It does not.

I'll chime in on the possible custode fixes.

Its hard, as a player I look at the rules and don't really seem anything that is outright broken like broadsides are, various DE things were or seriously undercosted like most of Admech were.

That said I'm six games in and the only game that has been even close was against other Custodes in an RTT final. Adding in the wider community results and they are obviously a problem.

I think its that they are just too reliable and whatever they want to do and super flexible in what they can do. Add to that the ability to spike certain units survivability and really mess with opposition game plans.

Compounding the issue is the sheer amount of players that have jumped on board the faction - I get it, its a cheap, easy to build and reletively easy to learn/play faction - but the number of players is heavily skewing the results.

Possible fixes:

Points: the first place to start, bikes could go up 5 with salvo going up another 5 - this would have quite an impact on most lists packing a couple of squads.
Add to that Trajan going up 10-15 and Bike captains getting the same 5/5 treatment as the bikes.
I don't think there are many other things that deserve a points bump to be honest - Its a tricky thing to manage as if to many things go up we just become unable to play the missions.

Strats: This is my main fear! Upping the cost of EA which is the most complained about strat would be a massive hit but I think thats what they may do. AGA is no where near as oppressive and is very similar to other abilities in many other factions so I don't see it altering.

Other possible changes: As we've seen before they like to play around with the CORE keyword and I could see them removing it from Bikes and perhaps Dreads. This would be an OK fix and would also help tone down Trajan but would make their use of CORE really inconsistant and random.
They could try put Allurus up from min 1 to min 3 squads to remove some of our MSU.
They could alter Emperors chosen to only a 5+++ against morals to make them easier to tech against.

Lots of options, hopefully they don't go too far overboard as I think alot of the probelms are people just not playing into custodes very well - lots of my opponents don't split fire to draw out strats, continue shooting unbits after I use the strats, put themselves in HI range knowing I can do it anywhere, etr... Positioning and flexable target priority can work wonders against us.

Some interesting points, but I disagree with the CORE changes because it would push builds even more towards emperors chosen because the built in re-rolls suddenly becomes even more valuable. I get it, and it's an understandable fix, but I feel it would disrupt internal codex balance even further.

I also don't quite understand what's the main problem with esteemed amalgam? I've heard multiple people say it should be just once per game and I'd really like to get my hands on what these people are smoking. Increase the cost to 2cp? I could live with that.
They must not touch our defensive strats however if the goal is to not utterly stomp the faction.

Tiberias wrote:
Some interesting points, but I disagree with the CORE changes because it would push builds even more towards emperors chosen because the built in re-rolls suddenly becomes even more valuable. I get it, and it's an understandable fix, but I feel it would disrupt internal codex balance even further.

I also don't quite understand what's the main problem with esteemed amalgam? I've heard multiple people say it should be just once per game and I'd really like to get my hands on what these people are smoking. Increase the cost to 2cp? I could live with that.
They must not touch our defensive strats however if the goal is to not utterly stomp the faction.

Totally agree that they shouldn't heavily nerf Amalgam. Its very powerful due to the fact that they have made every thing in the game able to re-roll everything (incredibly poor design) but it needs to be. Custodes should be survivable but in todays ultra deadly game a T5 with a 2+/4++ just doesn't cut it I'm sad to say. Add to that, Amalgam is one of our signature abilities that people know (and fear) us for, faction need stuff that other factions don't get and it is one of those things for us.

So I fear people getting so wound up on thinking EC is base, that it becomes the auto-take. Only one subfaction has 4+++ and while it is powerful, it's not the top performer. Shadowkeepers still outperforms it in raw killing power. So Shadowkeepers bikes are still fairly killable to dedicated at units. Also we have to look at our bikes in comparison to other bikes.

No one else's bikes are running with our statlines, 2+ W/BS,6 S/T, 4 wounds, with a 2+4++6+++, for 75 points. That is bonkers. Throw on that a S7 melee weapon and their two shooting options, and it's starting to get into OP territory. Bikes in their current form need to be 80-85points base, and their weapons can be 5 for HB and 10 for missiles.

Trajann is simply the most powerful beatstick in the game as named characters go, that aren't LOWs. Obviously he's not Guilliman, or Morty. But he smacks Abby and Thrakka, for the cost. He needs to be closer to 190 than 150.

If you're going to balance them, points are the way to go. Raising strat costs could just remove our viability outright (except maybe making Esteemed Amalgam 2CP).

Bikes going to 85 base and 5 for Salvos isn't a bad idea. Then they're 270 for a squad of 3 salvos. Not bad at all.

Trajann should likely be somewhere between 170 and 200. I'm not sure exactly where.

Allarus could probably stand to be 65 instead of 60. Conversely though, Aquillons really do need to come down some and be about the same points as Allarus.

These would probably fix the issue so stop there and see effects.

Audustum wrote:
If you're going to balance them, points are the way to go. Raising strat costs could just remove our viability outright (except maybe making Esteemed Amalgam 2CP).

Bikes going to 85 base and 5 for Salvos isn't a bad idea. Then they're 270 for a squad of 3 salvos. Not bad at all.

Trajann should likely be somewhere between 170 and 200. I'm not sure exactly where.

Allarus could probably stand to be 65 instead of 60. Conversely though, Aquillons really do need to come down some and be about the same points as Allarus.

These would probably fix the issue so stop there and see effects.

I think you have the right of it here on most points, my only concern is what value would Terminators have if you can still get Wardens for almost half the cost, that hit and shoot just as hard? I think to nerf Allarus is to create new problems. I would think wargear would be a more appropriate place for points? axes are 10, spears are 5? Maybe make the launchers a baked in bump of 2-3 points?

This is always the warden problem again. What to do with Wardens? They are currently our cheapest melee powerhouse. You can still take them in giant squads, and their axes hit just as hard. It's too late to give them something new, but I do think they need more seperation from Allarus. I think moving Allarus to Heavy Support would be one way.

Don’t nerf units not being used. Allarus aren’t being used often. The lvo had a different mission set

stratigo wrote:
Don’t nerf units not being used. Allarus aren’t being used often. The lvo had a different mission set

I see your point, however the base unit is not the problem. The relics available to it's base are. The PP is at the heart of most of the Reddit screaming, as are the turn 1 lethality of our bikes. Right now, with the new style of 9th being unveiled, Allarus play perfectly into the Hold the Middle style of missions. I don't think you are wrong, but I think the future design choices by GW were shortsighted. Almost, dare I say it, poorly thought out.

Custodes seem to have the problem that marines had at the start of the edition: they're just too killy, resilient and reliable that an opponent can do nothing but be overrun.

They way GW dealt with that was targeted points nerfs,new codexes and missions, and I reckon the same will happen here.

I want custodes to stay top of tier 1 personally. I've played them for years and it is so nice that they feel as powerful as they should now.

I feel GW should put up trajann and bikes a little bit and see what happens with eldar, nids and csm hitting the meta

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

stratigo wrote:
Don’t nerf units not being used. Allarus aren’t being used often. The lvo had a different mission set

I see your point, however the base unit is not the problem. The relics available to it's base are. The PP is at the heart of most of the Reddit screaming, as are the turn 1 lethality of our bikes. Right now, with the new style of 9th being unveiled, Allarus play perfectly into the Hold the Middle style of missions. I don't think you are wrong, but I think the future design choices by GW were shortsighted. Almost, dare I say it, poorly thought out.

Praetorian plate is not bad and the people saying it is are dumb

I feel like most who over-value Praetorian Plate fail to realize that as a Heroic Intervention, the character can be attacked. I've seen it misused often by players who suddenly lose the Captain for no good reason, just as often as folks who use it correctly.

I'd be fine with bumping up some of the Strats to make them more cost effective with 4-6 man squads.

Which Stratagems were you thinking of increasing? Several of them already go up to 2CP when they contain 4+ models

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Which Stratagems were you thinking of increasing? Several of them already go up to 2CP when they contain 4+ models

Honestly they shouldn't change value. The point of Strats to give some sorta incentive to run more than MSU.

For starters, we should stop thinking of altering Custodes Strats like they are Guard Squads, or SM Tacticals. They can't be taken in units of 10, so the >4 costing more is a bit odd. It should be anything over the standard 3 models in a unit, unless it's Wardens, which should still be 4/5 as you can still take them in "large squads".

Secondly, just because idiots lose their Termi-captain by not reading the charge correctly doesn't change the fact that you can at will basically shift and alter the battlefield, for zero cost. PP cannot be altered at this point, unless it is completely removed. The Flag in Terminator armor with +1 attack could scare Abadon from making a charge.

This is what I meant. You can't put this genie back in the bottle now. You've made Custodes Terminators into the Sanguinor basically.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For starters, we should stop thinking of altering Custodes Strats like they are Guard Squads, or SM Tacticals. They can't be taken in units of 10, so the >4 costing more is a bit odd. It should be anything over the standard 3 models in a unit, unless it's Wardens, which should still be 4/5 as you can still take them in "large squads".

Secondly, just because idiots lose their Termi-captain by not reading the charge correctly doesn't change the fact that you can at will basically shift and alter the battlefield, for zero cost. PP cannot be altered at this point, unless it is completely removed. The Flag in Terminator armor with +1 attack could scare Abadon from making a charge.

This is what I meant. You can't put this genie back in the bottle now. You've made Custodes Terminators into the Sanguinor basically.

I'm sorry but how many games have you played with a PP Cap? It is a nice gimmick, but it really isn't a shifting force. I mean, you mess with your opponent's head and plan, but not any more than a unit doing some fall back and charge stuff with a strat. You jump in, hit 6 S8 -2 2. If you roll good you can kill most of an Intercessor squad or if you are in Rendax, force a handful of 5+ saves on a vehicle, for a potential whopping 12 damage (granted you hit that top 1 percentile roll). Hardly shifting the battlefield there.

KGYM wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
For starters, we should stop thinking of altering Custodes Strats like they are Guard Squads, or SM Tacticals. They can't be taken in units of 10, so the >4 costing more is a bit odd. It should be anything over the standard 3 models in a unit, unless it's Wardens, which should still be 4/5 as you can still take them in "large squads".

Secondly, just because idiots lose their Termi-captain by not reading the charge correctly doesn't change the fact that you can at will basically shift and alter the battlefield, for zero cost. PP cannot be altered at this point, unless it is completely removed. The Flag in Terminator armor with +1 attack could scare Abadon from making a charge.

This is what I meant. You can't put this genie back in the bottle now. You've made Custodes Terminators into the Sanguinor basically.

I'm sorry but how many games have you played with a PP Cap? It is a nice gimmick, but it really isn't a shifting force. I mean, you mess with your opponent's head and plan, but not any more than a unit doing some fall back and charge stuff with a strat. You jump in, hit 6 S8 -2 2. If you roll good you can kill most of an Intercessor squad or if you are in Rendax, force a handful of 5+ saves on a vehicle, for a potential whopping 12 damage (granted you hit that top 1 percentile roll). Hardly shifting the battlefield there.

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit. If the charged unit was a squad of 3 bikes say, thats now 15 attacks instead of 12. If it was a max squad of shield boys in Rendax, etc etc. Is it the level of IH unkillable Character Dreads? No. Is it near the level of BA Smash Captains? I would say it's even worse, because those hit on 4's, whereas the Allarus Captain will always hit on 2s.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit.

Except that the Allarus Vexila Praetor does not have a melee weapon aside of a misericordia. In which case you get 4, not 6 attacks at a whopping S5 AP-2 D1.

I am unimpressed.

 Thairne wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

Unless you jump a +1 attack flag with the PP and an axe in, and then it's 6 attacks with the axe, and +1 attack to every model in the charged unit.

Except that the Allarus Vexila Praetor does not have a melee weapon aside of a misericordia. In which case you get 4, not 6 attacks at a whopping S5 AP-2 D1.

I am unimpressed.

Well you actually either get 5 spear/axe attacks or 6 daggers with a vexilla. 4 base, +1 for banner, +1 for dagger.

But no, the vexilla is not doing damage himself. He's buffing whatever unit he pops up by significantly though.

Lets assume you had a unit of vertus praetors that got charged and you PP in. You pop up on the backside of the charging unit at .9" away from the charging unit.

Now your opponent cannot pile in all his models into the bikes and can likely only get 2-4 models into the vexilla (unlikely to kill it).

He swings as much as he can into the bikes and kills 1 of them.

Now your bikes can go, with the +1 attack from the banner and +1 attack per model from Avenge the fallen. Your 3 man bike unit that lost a model is now only down one dagger attack from when they were a full 3 man unit, then the praetor gets to swing. You've actually gotten far more damage into the charging unit than they were planning for.



PP is very strong, which is why its only once per game.

I think the nerf to make it a heroic intervention is absolutly fine and in line with what it should be. Keeps you honest and make you actually think about using it. Your not gonna just pop up and take a point away from the swarmlord for instance.





I think the following changes need to happen to custodes.

Bring trajann to 165, and make it so that if you take him you cannot use Victor of the Blood games on any other character (since he has it).
Bring salvo to +10pts a model instead of +5.
Make it so that you can only take one unit of wardens and they use no slot (you get them as a unit to protect your WL).
Give agamatus bikes +1w and reduce points cost by 5pts.
Give aquillon termies +1w.
Bring Orion down 20 more points.
Make ares main gun go to one shot 12 damage ignore invuns or have D3+1 shots in beam mode.
Bring all Lastrum bolt cannons to D2 like they are supposed to be.

Bring Emperor's Auspice to 2cp.
Add the grav impuslor strat for our tanks (-2 to be charged).
Make Esteemed Amalgam so that you can only select each other shield host once.