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Really? No one can guess why Custodes didnt get a buff in this patch? This was an appease the mob patch, not a balance patch. Further evidenced by the fact of the Nids now being DE levels of stupidly broken upon release.

It's the GW pendulum as usual. Release a codex that has an extreme skew list that tourney players will abuse and have absurd win rates, wait a few months before slamming it with heavy handed nerfs and releasing another codex with the same problems. Rinse and repeat.

I feel bad for Custodes players since it just forces a lot of you guys back to overly relying on FW units to compensate for the changes.

What a mess. Disaster of a dataslate.
Would have preferred a point hike PLUS a CP hike for auspice over a 1/game auspice, plus locking it to infantry.

I assume despite the poor wording, its 1/game.

Despite this. I don't know if I can really infantry spam, it just totally lacks anti-tank output we sorely need bikes for.

 iGuy91 wrote:
What a mess. Disaster of a dataslate.
Would have preferred a point hike PLUS a CP hike for auspice over a 1/game auspice, plus locking it to infantry.

I assume despite the poor wording, its 1/game.

Despite this. I don't know if I can really infantry spam, it just totally lacks anti-tank output we sorely need bikes for.

Pretty much. It's the problem when you have a faction like Custodes that has very few units as a stand-alone army. It means every change hits a little bit harder since you don't have the redundancy or breadth of range that a faction like SM have.

The problem is not just that we got nerfed. It's also that a lot of the power armoured enemies we barely outclassed before are much better than us. I almost never actually take 2+ saves, it's 4++ more than anything else because ap-2 or better is super common. But now I have to decide between the spear that wounds meqs on a 3+ and gives a 5+ save, or the axe that wounds on a 2 and gives a 4+. To a model that's 1/3 our cost. Then if they swing back with a chainsword we get a 3+ save. What is the point of 2+ armor this edition?

Mad_Proctologist wrote:
The problem is not just that we got nerfed. It's also that a lot of the power armoured enemies we barely outclassed before are much better than us. I almost never actually take 2+ saves, it's 4++ more than anything else because ap-2 or better is super common. But now I have to decide between the spear that wounds meqs on a 3+ and gives a 5+ save, or the axe that wounds on a 2 and gives a 4+. To a model that's 1/3 our cost. Then if they swing back with a chainsword we get a 3+ save. What is the point of 2+ armor this edition?

It's mostly useless, but we still pay a premium for it. Which is why in 9th our durability was tied to the stratagems...which in turn now means we die even faster. So we have to take that into account going forward. You can't count on anything besides maybe dreadnoughts to survive on their own. Every unit has to make their points back really quickly after engaging the enemy and is then inevitably going to die.

Had an RTT with new rules on Saturday, so I think I have a clearer view of the dataslate than most (though not saying it's good, it is just very rapid compared to the publishing of the dataslate). The doomsayers are not overreacting that much. We are back at 8th post-PA shield+dread spam, but even that is a best case scenario. There are things we should try out, but some other things became crystal clear from 3 games (and the experiences of other players there). Two motnhs ago, post codex, pre harlies 3 players were 1, 3, 5. Same 3 players were 1, 15, 19 now, with the first guy being maybe the best player in our country. We had some CWE, no pure Harlies, 2 Crushers, and a mix of others.

Brought EI Battalion, Trajann and Bike Cap, 2x3 Sags, 1x8 Spear bomb, single allarus, 2 achillus, 1 galatus, 5 bikes. First game was mission 11, against DG termie spam. They are pretty much our hard counter now with armor of contempt. A sag squad attritioned a 10 men Blightlord bomb for 2 turns, then the spear bomb charged, they walked away with 4 models. Second was 33, against SK Custodes. Similar list than mine, slowly ate me up. Third was 13 against IG, practically tabled me T5 with Manticores, Demolisher TCs, melta scions, and a punisher TC. Even though not a lot of terrain, and built up a sizeable lead, I felt weak.

Based on discussing my experiences with others, there are some things I can stand by even without knowing the Nids' effect:

1.We are squishy without our strats, bikes especially, and even shield guards seem to underperform in this area.
2. Bikes are borderline unusable. Small units are not favored, as nothing coerces us into MSU, also 3 bikes don't hit hard, and large units are just point sinks waiting for a good angle from AT. Regardless, we have no good alternative for AT, but without some significant defence, they can only contribute if we go first, or have a big ass obscuring terrain.
3. Spear guardians hit well below their weight. Their sweet spot seems non-terminator elite units, not a lot of that running around.
4. Sag shooting with EI is still good, but AoC messed with that as well. Useful but not in numbers.

Generally I feel like mech is the way to go, but even that will be weaker than what it was in late 8th. Other than mech/dread spam, we can wait for our Army of Renown, or look at souping in a knight if it won't break katahs (the Chaos ones don't break armies, we know that so far). As of now, we are squishy for our points, and we have underperforming options for specific purposes (AT is weak, long range harassment is weak, force projection in general is very much impeded).

Oof.
That sounds really terrible.

But I had a feeling that would happen... I play 2 armies. Admech and Custodes. It happened to Admech (down to mid 40s) so I kinda feared it would just happen AGAIN.

That they choose a THAT heavy handed approach is kinda stunning...
With 8th ed levels of survivability in a 9th ed level damage creep I dont see custodes going above 45% anymore...
I'll have a game tomorrow against new nids (without dataslate cause we want to gauge the power of the nid codex without 2 new things in the mix) and I already feel like I'm fighting uphill. With the slate... bloodbath.

We unfortunately don't even have 8th levels of survivability right now since the 3++ is gone (eagle eye relic doesn't count).

Holy heck, I haven't kept up with 40k news for about a week then a buddy sends me the latest balance data slate.

Auspice is once per game instead of a CP increase. Reminds me of that Goonhammer overreaction from earlier.

Bikes can no longer use AGA? I'm not too familiar with SM rules anymore but can their bikers use Transhuman?

Also disappointed that Power Armor gets Armor of Contempt but Auric Armor does not, I rarely if ever get to use the 2+ even with Sword & Board since anti-tank is cheap and available for most armies.

Only Outriders and ATVs can use Transhuman -it is Primaris only.

Shutting off re-rolls is bad, very bad. It must be heavily restricted immediately.

Also:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/18/earn-the-favour-of-the-dark-gods-to-make-your-massive-killing-machines-even-more-unstoppable/

Give to any Chaos Knight (costs points, not CP):

Each time an attack is made against this model, your opponent cannot re-roll the hit roll, cannot re-roll the wound roll and cannot re-roll the damage roll.

Also if you kill some models it gets transhuman against hit rolls like our Blade Champion.

These are both permanent. The no re-rolls from the outset, the transhuman once it hits the required kill count.

Had a game against Leviathan nids.

94/16

It's just not feasible with the nerfs. Even without the nerfs AND armour of contempt I ended 85/51.

Custodes dont have the volume of fire to kill chaff, especially if it has mini-transnid and neither the volume nor damage to kill big monsters that get invuls on demand.
You get outplayed on every phase. Zoantrhopes easily push D6+3MW each, a charging Carnifex does the same. Then you get outshot by freakin' gants, tyrannofexes, carnifexes and then get mauled in melee all the while you have to deal with more obsec bodies than your entire army has shots - that regenerate every turn.
No, its not feasible.

Strange that ATVs can use Transhuman but our Bikes can't. I was hoping they'd split the middle and make it 1CP for Infantry and 2CP for Bikers instead of outright removing it.

As for Leviathan I've had similar experiences. Brain bugs dish out lots of Mortals and transhuman everywhere is difficult to deal with, but still preferable to -1D.

i mean, we can tailor our lists to beat nids, but that doesnt help in a competitive environment.

30 witchseekers, and a relic flamer centura shuts down the psychic heavy nid lists pretty hard, but its just not very useful into much else. Especially with AoC in game making them useless into the TSons and Grey knights.

Audustum wrote:
Shutting off re-rolls is bad, very bad. It must be heavily restricted immediately.

Also:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/04/18/earn-the-favour-of-the-dark-gods-to-make-your-massive-killing-machines-even-more-unstoppable/

Give to any Chaos Knight (costs points, not CP):

Each time an attack is made against this model, your opponent cannot re-roll the hit roll, cannot re-roll the wound roll and cannot re-roll the damage roll.

Also if you kill some models it gets transhuman against hit rolls like our Blade Champion.

These are both permanent. The no re-rolls from the outset, the transhuman once it hits the required kill count.

Well, that stings...

 Eihnlazer wrote:
i mean, we can tailor our lists to beat nids, but that doesnt help in a competitive environment.

30 witchseekers, and a relic flamer centura shuts down the psychic heavy nid lists pretty hard, but its just not very useful into much else. Especially with AoC in game making them useless into the TSons and Grey knights.

the extra MW from the maleceptor are not ignored by sisters and they not need LOS.

fun fact a normal CSM marine has the same number of attacks as a custodes.

I'm really glad this is happening, because I always called for a cost increase for the shut down of re-rolls, and points increases for several units, and everyone lost their collective minds. "That will kill us!!!" "It's not possible they would nerf that, it'd be too much!"

Well, now look. Would you rather pay 2-3CP per shut down, and 200 points for Trajann/ 95 points for bikes, or this?

It's fully possible either change would wreck our competitive prospects. It's a difference between C+/B- tier and B-/B tier.

 nordsturmking wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
i mean, we can tailor our lists to beat nids, but that doesnt help in a competitive environment.

30 witchseekers, and a relic flamer centura shuts down the psychic heavy nid lists pretty hard, but its just not very useful into much else. Especially with AoC in game making them useless into the TSons and Grey knights.

the extra MW from the maleceptor are not ignored by sisters and they not need LOS.

fun fact a normal CSM marine has the same number of attacks as a custodes.

Oh i know about not being immune to the extra mortals, but they do have to get a 7+ on the cast to do those, and with a -3 thats not always gonna happen. Just having that -3 to cast will considerably blunt the mortal wound output on those things.

At best, one tervigon will have +1 to cast and 3d6 drop one. With the -3 going off, the fully buffed one might get both of his extras off, but the other 2 will likely not. Stopping 12 mortals and being immune to 3 smites + psychic scream for a turn is a pretty big blunt to their offence, and gives you time to strike back.

 Grimskul wrote:
It's the GW pendulum as usual. Release a codex that has an extreme skew list that tourney players will abuse and have absurd win rates, wait a few months before slamming it with heavy handed nerfs and releasing another codex with the same problems. Rinse and repeat.

I feel bad for Custodes players since it just forces a lot of you guys back to overly relying on FW units to compensate for the changes.

Forgeworld models aren't the answer.

If custodes have any play it is in shield guard and that's about it. Maybe sags.

I don't think any army in the game has ever been nerfed as hard in one balance pass as custodes just were. It usually takes like 3 to punt someone down this hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm really glad this is happening, because I always called for a cost increase for the shut down of re-rolls, and points increases for several units, and everyone lost their collective minds. "That will kill us!!!" "It's not possible they would nerf that, it'd be too much!"

Well, now look. Would you rather pay 2-3CP per shut down, and 200 points for Trajann/ 95 points for bikes, or this?

200 points for trajan and 95 for bikes. Without a second thought.

Had the opportunity to try out a mecha EI battalion last night against melta sisters (5 multimelta immolators, shitton of melta girls and repentia). Brought BC, Trajann, Prosecutors, 3 Sags, 3 Shields, 2 solo Allarus, 2 Achillus, 1 Galatus, 2 Telemon, 1 Caladius. Played recover the relics.

I went first, flung one achilles forward, then made the charge with it fortunately. Others moved up, rearguard put up banners with conservai. Long story short he conceded at the end of his 2nd turn fight phase when I lost 1 Achillus, 1 Galatus, and 1 Allarus didn't even come down yet. That one big push was too much for him, and the whole repentia countercharge wave was neutered with the fight first trait. Meltas should've been harsher on me, but wouldn't have made much of a difference.

EC might have been nicer if he brought no repentia. The whole idea of "I can't use my classic strats" opened up the book for a constant use of tanglefoot, slayers etc.

I'll probably get steamrolled in my next RTT next month, but this was a nice experience.

So you dominated a list almost tailor made to defeat your list. By the second turn.

Yes, we are irreparably broken! Gnash the teeth! Bring on the moaning and wailing! The end times are here!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So you dominated a list almost tailor made to defeat your list. By the second turn.

Yes, we are irreparably broken! Gnash the teeth! Bring on the moaning and wailing! The end times are here!

I'm not sure what's tailor made here. Melta is a middle choice against Custodes cause low volume and 4++ is gonna 4++.

If you want a counter anecdote, I took a heavy Infantry Emperor's Chosen list into a match again Thousand Sons. 7 Guardians killed about 3 Scarab Occult terminators in melee. I was dealt 11-15 MW every turn even through the 4+++ and lost most of my army to it.

Without Bikes (which were way too squishy to take) I couldn't keep up with the constant teleporting and repositioning. Opponent conceded the center, played the corners and just kited the infantry to oblivion with jump-shoot-psychic. Since even AP-3 still let terminators in cover still make 3+ saves, my retaliatory fire wasn't as great.

Mission was Conversion.

Audustum wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So you dominated a list almost tailor made to defeat your list. By the second turn.

Yes, we are irreparably broken! Gnash the teeth! Bring on the moaning and wailing! The end times are here!

I'm not sure what's tailor made here. Melta is a middle choice against Custodes cause low volume and 4++ is gonna 4++.

If you want a counter anecdote, I took a heavy Infantry Emperor's Chosen list into a match again Thousand Sons. 7 Guardians killed about 3 Scarab Occult terminators in melee. I was dealt 11-15 MW every turn even through the 4+++ and lost most of my army to it.

Without Bikes (which were way too squishy to take) I couldn't keep up with the constant teleporting and repositioning. Opponent conceded the center, played the corners and just kited the infantry to oblivion with jump-shoot-psychic. Since even AP-3 still let terminators in cover still make 3+ saves, my retaliatory fire wasn't as great.

Mission was Conversion.

Yeah, I'm really down on bikes rn, so if you don't have Into The Darkness in EC, there really isn't any way to project force further away than 9"+charge range with the Contemptors. Feels bad, a jumpy Eldar list probably would've kicked my ass with absolutely rampaging through my backfield.

An all Melta Sisters list should be a perfect match against an all elite ultra heavy mech list like ours. I would chalk this up to bad opponent.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
An all Melta Sisters list should be a perfect match against an all elite ultra heavy mech list like ours. I would chalk this up to bad opponent.

High strength low volume struggles into invuls.

Okay, new Contemptor model has been shown with all options. Let's just assume we get all the new options in a FAQ (and don't lose the Assault cannon, which doesn't seem to be an option anymore). What are we most excited for? Twin Lascannon and plasma on the fist would make for a decent ranged anti-tank unit, something we currently lack. If you had points left over, simply tacking on a Havok launcher to a dread wouldn't be horrible.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Okay, new Contemptor model has been shown with all options. Let's just assume we get all the new options in a FAQ (and don't lose the Assault cannon, which doesn't seem to be an option anymore). What are we most excited for? Twin Lascannon and plasma on the fist would make for a decent ranged anti-tank unit, something we currently lack. If you had points left over, simply tacking on a Havok launcher to a dread wouldn't be horrible.

Would be cool if we got new options on the basic ugly Contemptor. But I'm still not sure why I'd bring one over an Achillus or Galatus.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Okay, new Contemptor model has been shown with all options. Let's just assume we get all the new options in a FAQ (and don't lose the Assault cannon, which doesn't seem to be an option anymore). What are we most excited for? Twin Lascannon and plasma on the fist would make for a decent ranged anti-tank unit, something we currently lack. If you had points left over, simply tacking on a Havok launcher to a dread wouldn't be horrible.

Unfortunately I just don't see us getting the new options :(

The standard contemptor aqnd Landraider are only in our codex because they were in the original launch box back in the day as filler. They don't fit with the rest of the line and no doubt cause GW headaches as they have to try and rules match them with the same units in other codexs which they are trying to get away from. I think there is more chance that they will send our versions to legends than add more options for them in.

That said if we did get an option update I only really see the launcher and a couple of the fist guns as useful upgrades - the multimelta is cheaper and better than a twin lascannon and antitank is the thing that I want.