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 oni wrote:

drbored wrote:
Had a conversation with my GW manager about this today. They got updated on this stuff so that it wasn't a surprise to shop managers.

There will apparently be ways to earn ITC points by going into a GW shop and building, painting, and playing non-competitive events.

The major concern for GW store staff is obviously "I don't want WAAC players coming in and stinking up the place with all the seals they're clubbing that I'm trying to recruit into the game" and apparently there is going to be a lot of touch-and-go with this.

I only see it as a negative. Listening to so much to the competitive scene is why 9th edition got so bloated and complicated so quickly. Not all competitive players are bad people, of course, but there are some stinkers, and the last thing that I want to see is them coming into GW stores trying to somehow game the system of points they can earn in the stores.

LMFAO!!!

Is this real?!?! Is this true?!?! So, GW knows this is a bad idea, but they’re doing it anyway?!?!

Holy fething hell. I don’t know how to even begin to unpack this.

Demanding online vocal minority meet niche company trying to leverage every angle.

If you can earn as many ITC points attending and winning a narrative event, I'd be surprised if you didn't see a lot of seal clubbing.

Most of those events are run so the overall winner doesn't necessarily have to win all their games, and fluff/painting/sportsmanship is more important as a whole but you still end up with plenty of power game lists sneaking through.

I would also worry that as time goes on, non-ITC events don't get viewed as 'legitimate' ones. Right now it doesn't matter because you can count the number of GW hosted events on two hands, but if they start offering positions to a lot more people then those who don't align themselves to it might be in some trouble when people want to commit to ITC ones for sake of their points track or even just the perception it's "not a real event if it's not got a ITC tag."

How are people complaining that casual isn't getting enough attention? There is a new crusade book like every 3 months. There is an entire version of the game for narrative casual play called Crusade. There is a alternative point system for casual play called power level.

9th if anything has had more focus on casual/narrative play than any edition since 2nd.

I am absolutely convinced most the people complaining here do not play the game, at all. And if they do, they are still mad about that Eldar player that beat them in 4th edition the one time they tried a tournament.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How are people complaining that casual isn't getting enough attention? There is a new crusade book like every 3 months. There is an entire version of the game for narrative casual play called Crusade. There is a alternative point system for casual play called power level.

9th if anything has had more focus on casual/narrative play than any edition since 2nd.

I am absolutely convinced most the people complaining here do not play the game, at all. And if they do, they are still mad about that Eldar player that beat them in 4th edition the one time they tried a tournament.

It's not that they don't get enough attention, but all pick up games at a club will be de facto expected to be matched play. The casual players are then encouraged to keep up with the competitive churn and do their own thing on top.

Also, I really doubt that a top priority for this new inner council is a court of top ITC players saying "you know what, we need every marine list to be capable of winning with a land Raider, centurions and scouts". They're spending a lot of time focusing on the tip performing builds and units from the top end of the curve which may mean very little to casual timmy with his "what looks cool" list.

Dudeface wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How are people complaining that casual isn't getting enough attention? There is a new crusade book like every 3 months. There is an entire version of the game for narrative casual play called Crusade. There is a alternative point system for casual play called power level.

9th if anything has had more focus on casual/narrative play than any edition since 2nd.

I am absolutely convinced most the people complaining here do not play the game, at all. And if they do, they are still mad about that Eldar player that beat them in 4th edition the one time they tried a tournament.

It's not that they don't get enough attention, but all pick up games at a club will be de facto expected to be matched play. The casual players are then encouraged to keep up with the competitive churn and do their own thing on top.

Also, I really doubt that a top priority for this new inner council is a court of top ITC players saying "you know what, we need every marine list to be capable of winning with a land Raider, centurions and scouts". They're spending a lot of time focusing on the tip performing builds and units from the top end of the curve which may mean very little to casual timmy with his "what looks cool" list.

Definitely not. Competitive players enjoy model ranges just as much at the apparently bitter casual in 40k.

Many of them are capable of playing all the various styles of gameplay and do.

Pick up games are whatever you discuss with the other player. Been at this 20 years and some how the same arguement is still being made. The amounts to, I can not discuss with the other player what I am looking for in a game. And I definitely won't try to find people in my area who play what I play. I just want the other player to intuitively want what I want.

Is everyone really going to be so easily distracted by the real motive here?

GW doesn't like that the ITC has a say in what products get used.

Think about it, ITC allows 3rd party conversions during a time when 3D printing has exploded.

GW gambled on 3D printers and lost IMHO.

Worse yet they shot themselves in the foot early and made things way worse by shutting down 3rd party bits seller on Ebay stores and the like.

The FLG guys really really want to look legitamate via GW, and I get why as it boosts there sales and cements their market position.

But anyone that thinks GW won't start being incredibly manipulative in short order can by the Brooklin Bridge from me.

I love how they have Brandt doing the rounds on Reddit saying this won't be the case, as if he has any say in it lol, but you just know it will be. They will eventually force players to register their personal info on their AP to even attend.

You are all looking at the championship series and rightfully worried it will engulf 40k…
I am hoping gw/itc develop a great narrative series instead.

I want to see narrative series incorporate each player and faction and support a crusade type system where players over the season/ year can play games, build, paint and grow armies earning thier armies crusade points and level up thier armies in an unbalanced crusade fashion.

In other words not hyper competitive. Instead maybe that ork player builds, plays and paints enough at thier local hobby shop to get to enough scrap points to include a looted vehicle in his army. Maybe he can hire/include one of those white dwarf non-tournament match play legal special characters no one uses like grukk facerippa.

Then at the end of each season/year there is a battle royal type end to each seasons narrative season with a major narrative game at LVO and warhammer world simultaneously. With a bunch of local game store narrative events leading up to it.

They could monetize it the beginning of each season by releasing a new chapter approved crusade book with the current seasons theme and missions and an update to several armies crusade rules, relics, special characters, etc

In other words where the championship series is focused more on hyper competitive balance and whining about which unit is broken. The narrative series is expected to have broken combos. People need to play and build and paint in order to make thier army stronger. Maybe your warlord gets several buffs and relics in this crusade narrative series. You can hobby and bits up a model to make that custon warlord for your tabletop and each year the narrative season resets and we go to a different part of the 40k universe for a campaign. You can still play a past years campaign with friends but the local shops move onto a new area where you can earn enough scrap points to add that looted vehicle you made last season.

Maybe instead of celebrating an individual win we celebrate the faction who wins each narrative series with a limited release resin model of a special character in the winning factions army.

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How are people complaining that casual isn't getting enough attention? There is a new crusade book like every 3 months. There is an entire version of the game for narrative casual play called Crusade. There is a alternative point system for casual play called power level.

9th if anything has had more focus on casual/narrative play than any edition since 2nd.

I am absolutely convinced most the people complaining here do not play the game, at all. And if they do, they are still mad about that Eldar player that beat them in 4th edition the one time they tried a tournament.

Are you talking about yourself not playing the game? Because Crusade isn't casual. Crusade is a lot of extra work, both in terms of book-keeping and keeping the group together.
It can be fun with the right group, but its not what most people mean when they say 'casual'

Casual just means wandering into to the shop/club/venue, having a game and hanging out, maybe having another game.

Voss wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How are people complaining that casual isn't getting enough attention? There is a new crusade book like every 3 months. There is an entire version of the game for narrative casual play called Crusade. There is a alternative point system for casual play called power level.

9th if anything has had more focus on casual/narrative play than any edition since 2nd.

I am absolutely convinced most the people complaining here do not play the game, at all. And if they do, they are still mad about that Eldar player that beat them in 4th edition the one time they tried a tournament.

Are you talking about yourself not playing the game? Because Crusade isn't casual. Crusade is a lot of extra work, both in terms of book-keeping and keeping the group together.
It can be fun with the right group, but its not what most people mean when they say 'casual'

Casual just means wandering into to the shop/club/venue, having a game and hanging out, maybe having another game.

This crusade is like being a Gm in an rpg on top of 40k. Crusade benefits greatly from someone running the campaign. There is so much tacked on rules, individual army crusade points, environmental effects or whatever it’s a lot to keep track of and you need to homebrew it all into a plan before you even play.

I am hoping the narrative series tries to somewhat organize this mess and take away some of the clutter of crusade so that it’s easier to just play crusade at a local store event where your itc crusade points are recorded. Where you can just get the event primer and familiarize yourself with that events handful of crusade rules. Such as preplaced terrain, defend mission, etc. I would love to see if they could incorporate this into home game garage hammer as well without it being horribly abused.

I wonder if someone at GW finally noticed Wizards of the Coast and their organized play and WPN system and thought, "hey, maybe we should try something like that".

Voss wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
How are people complaining that casual isn't getting enough attention? There is a new crusade book like every 3 months. There is an entire version of the game for narrative casual play called Crusade. There is a alternative point system for casual play called power level.

9th if anything has had more focus on casual/narrative play than any edition since 2nd.

I am absolutely convinced most the people complaining here do not play the game, at all. And if they do, they are still mad about that Eldar player that beat them in 4th edition the one time they tried a tournament.

Are you talking about yourself not playing the game? Because Crusade isn't casual. Crusade is a lot of extra work, both in terms of book-keeping and keeping the group together.
It can be fun with the right group, but its not what most people mean when they say 'casual'

Casual just means wandering into to the shop/club/venue, having a game and hanging out, maybe having another game.

Generic crusade is pick up games. Its about as casual as you can get. Crusade campaigns are an extra layer to crusade that isn't about pick up games. And there is still power levels, non-matched play, narrative play, etc.

Problem casual players have is other casual players. Competitive players are out there playing competitive games not "clubbing baby seals" at the local shop, that is a casual player doing that. People not playing competitive games at tournaments are casual players no matter how WAAC their style or list is.

Public enemy number one of the casual 40k fan is other casual 40k fans who play casual differently. The dude taking top spot at the LVO isn't anyone but other competitive players problem, the dude taking the top spot's list and strolling up to LGS to play exclusively pick up games is the guy you have issues with. And that dude is a casual player.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I wonder if someone at GW finally noticed Wizards of the Coast and their organized play and WPN system and thought, "hey, maybe we should try something like that".

GW already DID that in 5th with the Grand Tournament system. In fact, the guy in charge of keeping track of everyone's record was on the Dakka boards and even directly called out Stelek(of Yes The Truth Hurts infamy) on his BS about winning events.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Generic crusade is pick up games. Its about as casual as you can get. Crusade campaigns are an extra layer to crusade that isn't about pick up games. And there is still power levels, non-matched play, narrative play, etc.

Which, as Voss pointed out, require additional organization to keep active.

Problem casual players have is other casual players. Competitive players are out there playing competitive games not "clubbing baby seals" at the local shop, that is a casual player doing that. People not playing competitive games at tournaments are casual players no matter how WAAC their style or list is.

When people are literally coming in to shops talking about how they're "playing to prepare for a tournament", they're "casual players"?

Public enemy number one of the casual 40k fan is other casual 40k fans who play casual differently. The dude taking top spot at the LVO isn't anyone but other competitive players problem, the dude taking the top spot's list and strolling up to LGS to play exclusively pick up games is the guy you have issues with. And that dude is a casual player.

It's astonishing how whenever the competitive playerbase's is called out for something how quickly they run to blame it on "casual players" or redefine their definition of "casual players" to match something wildly different.

 Togusa wrote:
I would think this is good. These are the people that arguably know the game better than the people who make it. They're going to find the broken things much quicker and bring attention to it. So logic dictates that they're going to actually balance the game.

They can also let GW know about things like community outrage over CA being in printed format and therefore costing $40 for points changes that were made for a meta 6-8 months old. I think a group of rational people that already have a working relationship can get that point across much better than thousands of disgruntled customers essentially shouting into the void online,

 Kanluwen wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Generic crusade is pick up games. Its about as casual as you can get. Crusade campaigns are an extra layer to crusade that isn't about pick up games. And there is still power levels, non-matched play, narrative play, etc.

Which, as Voss pointed out, require additional organization to keep active.

Problem casual players have is other casual players. Competitive players are out there playing competitive games not "clubbing baby seals" at the local shop, that is a casual player doing that. People not playing competitive games at tournaments are casual players no matter how WAAC their style or list is.

When people are literally coming in to shops talking about how they're "playing to prepare for a tournament", they're "casual players"?

Public enemy number one of the casual 40k fan is other casual 40k fans who play casual differently. The dude taking top spot at the LVO isn't anyone but other competitive players problem, the dude taking the top spot's list and strolling up to LGS to play exclusively pick up games is the guy you have issues with. And that dude is a casual player.

It's astonishing how whenever the competitive playerbase's is called out for something how quickly they run to blame it on "casual players" or redefine their definition of "casual players" to match something wildly different.

If a competitive player strolls into a game store saying they are preparing for a tournament and a casual plays them...that is on the casual player. I in no way can conceive of how that is the competitive players fault. What an odd rebuttal. That proved my point that causal players are their own worst enemy lol.

For the record, casual players have never owned their behavior. In all my years playing either style of game, casual palyers have always assumed they are the default and everyone must do what they want or they are bad and wrong.

Here in 2022 its time for casual 40k players to admit their problem is other casaul 40k players doing something they don't like an blaming another community for it.

I can already see little Timmy Newtohobby getting judged by the local 45 year old, who exclusively plays tank company Guard, because he bought a hammerhead and they read on the internet its broken and only WAAC players take them.

I think I know what the problem is with this thread. We have casual players vs competitive players. GW is partnering up with ITC, that means tournament organizers and local store owners who have tournaments. Can we all agree that listening to store owners and tournament organizers is a good thing?

 CKO wrote:
I think I know what the problem is with this thread. We have casual players vs competitive players.

No actually, what we have is people who like to pretend that things mean one thing at some times and something else entirely at others.

People like to pretend that whenever "casual players" are talking about WAAC players coming in with their new hotness netlists, it somehow means "all competitive players".
But when the shoe is on the other foot?
"Casual players" means "anyone who doesn't play in tournaments" apparently.

GW is partnering up with ITC, that means tournament organizers and local store owners who have tournaments. Can we all agree that listening to store owners and tournament organizers is a good thing?

...do you really think that store owners didn't already have a way to talk to GW? That tournament organizers didn't have a way to talk to GW?

Because spoiler--they already did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

If a competitive player strolls into a game store saying they are preparing for a tournament and a casual plays them...that is on the casual player. I in no way can conceive of how that is the competitive players fault. What an odd rebuttal. That proved my point that causal players are their own worst enemy lol.

lol, yeah because they always say that they're preparing for a tournament...

For the record, casual players have never owned their behavior. In all my years playing either style of game, casual palyers have always assumed they are the default and everyone must do what they want or they are bad and wrong.

Yes, that's why we're all stuck playing points and ITC based missions. Those blasted casuals!

Here in 2022 its time for casual 40k players to admit their problem is other casaul 40k players doing something they don't like an blaming another community for it.

Here in 2022, it's time for competitive 40k players to stop pretending they're going to tournaments for every game night.

I can already see little Timmy Newtohobby getting judged by the local 45 year old, who exclusively plays tank company Guard, because he bought a hammerhead and they read on the internet its broken and only WAAC players take them.

So, basically you have nothing but strawmans. Got it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Yes, that's why we're all stuck playing points and ITC based missions. Those blasted casuals!

Have you considered not doing that?

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Okay I'll bite. Why?

Not OP but it makes it easier to tell which models have which weapons. I appreciate good conversions but it makes it more difficult to tell what's what at a glance

Toofast wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Okay I'll bite. Why?

Not OP but it makes it easier to tell which models have which weapons. I appreciate good conversions but it makes it more difficult to tell what's what at a glance

100% GW models has nothing to do with conversions. You can have a confusing conversion that is 100% composed of GW parts.

 CKO wrote:
I think I know what the problem is with this thread. We have casual players vs competitive players. GW is partnering up with ITC, that means tournament organizers and local store owners who have tournaments. Can we all agree that listening to store owners and tournament organizers is a good thing?

Absolutely not.

Why would you even ask?
Store owners don't give a gak about balance, they want to sell kits. So if imbalance is driving people to new armies, that means more sales.
Tournament organizers want whatever drives people to their tournaments- like every other time you've brought them up, there's a whole subforum with lots of incident reports. They've absolutely got a stake in being part of the problem, not being a solution.


This still isn't a casual vs competitive thing, either. Both get affected by bad balance decisions, and there is a range of desires in both fictional 'camps.'

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Here in 2022 its time for casual 40k players to admit their problem is other casaul 40k players doing something they don't like an blaming another community for it.

Meh, I'd say it's a 50/50 split. Both sides have their bad actors.

Voss wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I think I know what the problem is with this thread. We have casual players vs competitive players. GW is partnering up with ITC, that means tournament organizers and local store owners who have tournaments. Can we all agree that listening to store owners and tournament organizers is a good thing?

Absolutely not.

Why would you even ask?
Store owners don't give a gak about balance, they want to sell kits. So if imbalance is driving people to new armies, that means more sales.
Tournament organizers want whatever drives people to their tournaments- like every other time you've brought them up, there's a whole subforum with lots of incident reports. They've absolutely got a stake in being part of the problem, not being a solution.


This still isn't a casual vs competitive thing, either. Both get affected by bad balance decisions, and there is a range of desires in both fictional 'camps.'

Now, I am completely confused GW cannot win with you guys. Don't listen to store owners, tournament organizers, or competitive players all 3 are bad for the game. Who should they listen to? I am out of this thread just a bunch of people complaining about the competitive scene and its progression which has lead to actual recognition by the company. Now I know why GW has the attitude it has when it comes to satisfying some of its customers.

If your only data comes from those that are far from impartial, does that make the data valid?

I wouldn't mind if Tau were squatted, so I'd probably be the worst person you could ask how to improve Tau.

 CKO wrote:
I am out of this thread just a bunch of people complaining about the competitive scene and its progression

Yeah, how dare we not bow down before GW for embracing a Tournament system where practically every big event they hold has some sort of controversy, whether it be cheaters, people gaming the strength of schedule, or breaking the game so hard that GW is forced to issue an emergency FAQ that week.

 CKO wrote:

Voss wrote:

 CKO wrote:
I think I know what the problem is with this thread. We have casual players vs competitive players. GW is partnering up with ITC, that means tournament organizers and local store owners who have tournaments. Can we all agree that listening to store owners and tournament organizers is a good thing?

Absolutely not.

Why would you even ask?
Store owners don't give a gak about balance, they want to sell kits. So if imbalance is driving people to new armies, that means more sales.
Tournament organizers want whatever drives people to their tournaments- like every other time you've brought them up, there's a whole subforum with lots of incident reports. They've absolutely got a stake in being part of the problem, not being a solution.


This still isn't a casual vs competitive thing, either. Both get affected by bad balance decisions, and there is a range of desires in both fictional 'camps.'

Now, I am completely confused GW cannot win with you guys. Don't listen to store owners, tournament organizers, or competitive players all 3 are bad for the game. Who should they listen to?

I mean, I told you no one the first time. That doesn't seem confusing at all.

I am out of this thread just a bunch of people complaining about the competitive scene and its progression which has lead to actual recognition by the company.

What... progression?

Now I know why GW has the attitude it has when it comes to satisfying some of its customers.

Many of them want different things. GW's attitude has been, traditionally, to ignore all of them and do what it wants. Announcing that they will take feedback, but only from specific people who prosper most by exploiting their poorly written rules, is obviously not going to be received well.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Toofast wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Who wants to guess a requirement of all ITC events will be 100% GW models only?

And there is nothing wrong with that.

Okay I'll bite. Why?

Not OP but it makes it easier to tell which models have which weapons. I appreciate good conversions but it makes it more difficult to tell what's what at a glance

100% GW models has nothing to do with conversions. You can have a confusing conversion that is 100% composed of GW parts.

It's possible but that's an edge case compared to the amount of 3D printed alternate weapons that don't look exactly like the GW equivalent

Here's the thing, though...

If you're recruiting play testers or people to get game feedback from, you can at least prove that the tournament players are playing the game, and not just painting models. What metric would there be to look at a non-tournament player and say "We should give this person a chance to make changes to the game"? There isn't one, because if there's some casual gaming sage hermit in the world whose feedback would absolutely make a significant improvement to the game, they probably already have a game development job already (or are spending their time working on finding one).

And that's beside the point that whatever impact the tournament winners have is going to be competing with the rest of the changes made in the six month point shakeups, and codex turn overs.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

If a competitive player strolls into a game store saying they are preparing for a tournament and a casual plays them...that is on the casual player. I in no way can conceive of how that is the competitive players fault. What an odd rebuttal. That proved my point that causal players are their own worst enemy lol.

lol, yeah because they always say that they're preparing for a tournament...

For the record, casual players have never owned their behavior. In all my years playing either style of game, casual palyers have always assumed they are the default and everyone must do what they want or they are bad and wrong.

Yes, that's why we're all stuck playing points and ITC based missions. Those blasted casuals!

If you are not preparing for and playing in tournaments to be a part of the competitive game scene you are a casual, full stop. Competitive isn't "wants to win" otherwise all the salty casual players that cry on here after every L would be competitive players too. The WAAC guy who shows up to the corner store with a netlist on game night and never shows up to a tournament is a casual. The guy who plays whatever they headcannoned as "fluffy" is a casual. The guy playing ITC/Matched Play only and is zeroing in on a list for the next tournament is a competitive player.

And as someone who doesn't play competitively anymore, what ITC or is in matched play doesn't change anything for me. You are describing a personal issue. And maybe you should stop forcing yourself on a competitive play group because that sounds like it might be the actual problem if that is all people around you are playing.

Oh look, the predicted shifting of the goalposts and redefinition of what is what is happening.