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 Spreelock wrote:
And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).

I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.

While the codex seems pretty solid, surely this stratagem will be top of the list for a 'rebalance':


Makes a unit functionally immortal unless you run out of CP. Works on Flyrants, Trygons, even Harridans. Flyrants can even start next to Tyrant Guard and be untargetable if you don't get first turn.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).

I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.

Honestly I kind love this solution to the balance issue with indirect fire. Must have a spotter unit and can't just sit hidden in ruins plinking away with impunity. I hope the IG codex has a similar rule.

You can’t do it on the turn you set up, so can’t just chain it every turn.

Still, I like it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).

I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.

The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.

Not that that is a necessarily bad thing. The new codex has so many nice things I'm hard pressed to fit everything I want to play with in a list.

So all Screamer Killers in the army can have M14 (using Hydra and Tervigon Synaptic Imperative) for one turn or a 4++?

Count me in with 9 Screamer Killers rampaging through the enemy!

Also Genestealers might be much better than anticipated. You can set them up 9 inch away from the enemy at deployment. So if you get first turn, they have a guaranteed charge, unless the oponent starts really at the back of his deployment zone.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).

I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.

Yeah, they are still good to have around, but far from their former glory. My reasons are;
- no double shoot mechanic (this was not surprising though)
- getting exploding sixes on shots are rare option
- indirect fire now requires visibility from synapse unit
- strength of shots dropped to 6 (formerly they were optimal unit to shoot at t8 targets, now they've become more suited to hunt down elite infantry)

I'm actually more interested about shock cannons now, their strength 7 wounds average vehicle at 4+.

My goodness the Mawloc has so many attacks. Don't quite know why we had to over-complicate it's burrowing ability, but whatever, 16 attacks is just silly!

Even Raveners look fun with this.

 Redemption wrote:
The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.

It was a massive over-correction. Nerfing one thing after another and a price increase. I get that they were oppressive in large quantities, and adding the spotter mechanic is an elegant solution that I quite like. But to then nerf the strength and the range of the guns and then make them cost more? Come on!

GW needs to learn how to balance with something other than a pendulum.

 xttz wrote:
While the codex seems pretty solid, surely this stratagem will be top of the list for a 'rebalance':


Makes a unit functionally immortal unless you run out of CP. Works on Flyrants, Trygons, even Harridans. Flyrants can even start next to Tyrant Guard and be untargetable if you don't get first turn.

Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.

Siegfriedfr wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So no Red Terror or am I missing some page?

Red Terror was an artefact and the Trygon/Mawloc was somehow, conceptually, it's replacement.

Mawloc I would agree but Trygon was there in fluff longer than the Red Terror, and its purpose was/is different than a gulping horror.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It was a massive over-correction. Nerfing one thing after another and a price increase. I get that they were oppressive in large quantities, and adding the spotter mechanic is an elegant solution that I quite like. But to then nerf the strength and the range of the guns and then make them cost more? Come on!

GW needs to learn how to balance with something other than a pendulum.

Yeah, they now mostly suffer from internal balance issue.

For 10 points less than 3 hive guard with impaler cannons, you can get an Exocrine: D3+6 36" S8 Ap-4 D3 shots instead of 9 24" S6 Ap-2 D2 shots and 15 T8 2+ wounds instead of 3x T6 W4 3+.

Both are heavy support now and have ways to ignore cover. The extra 10 points, indirect fire and Infantry keyword don't seem to offset that to me.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.

What 'unintended interactions' are you looking at?

This seems pretty straightforward- you take the unit off the table until the end of your next movement phase. You just have to pick different units every other turn.

I'm not speaking specifically about that strat, but I think a Harridan playing peekaboo is a little much.

In general, I don't think GW is thinking about the Hierophant and the Harridan when it creates widely applicable buffs like Synaptic Links. Maybe CORE will rein a lot of it in, but I'm skeptical.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 xttz wrote:
While the codex seems pretty solid, surely this stratagem will be top of the list for a 'rebalance':


Makes a unit functionally immortal unless you run out of CP. Works on Flyrants, Trygons, even Harridans. Flyrants can even start next to Tyrant Guard and be untargetable if you don't get first turn.

Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.

I'm clearly missing some interaction here, but how is a unit functionally immortal with this?

 Redemption wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
And some things got nerfed to oblivion (rip hiveguard).

I don't quite understand this take. They got an extra shot, toughness, and wound. They lost instinctive behavior. They'll pretty much always ignore hit modifiers. They can become triple model count and they're infantry so they can walk through walls.

The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.

Not that that is a necessarily bad thing. The new codex has so many nice things I'm hard pressed to fit everything I want to play with in a list.

Well, yea, I think people are thinking too much in the sky high territory of crusher stampede.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
I'm not speaking specifically about that strat, but I think a Harridan playing peekaboo is a little much.

Eh? Flyers just leaving the table was the norm for quite a while. It was actually more sane that they couldn't stick around and constantly bombard the enemy.

This is a little exploit-y for hiding characters for an enemy turn and then redeploying with no repercussions, but the harridan specifically doesn't really bother me.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My goodness the Mawloc has so many attacks. Don't quite know why we had to over-complicate it's burrowing ability, but whatever, 16 attacks is just silly!

Even Raveners look fun with this.

 Redemption wrote:
The impaler cannon is only S6 now with a 24" range and requires a spotter to shoot out of LOS, they got 10 points more expensive and lost the shoot twice stratagem and aren't Core. They still have their uses, but they're not the auto-take they use to be.

It was a massive over-correction. Nerfing one thing after another and a price increase. I get that they were oppressive in large quantities, and adding the spotter mechanic is an elegant solution that I quite like. But to then nerf the strength and the range of the guns and then make them cost more? Come on!

GW needs to learn how to balance with something other than a pendulum.

The extra T, W, and ignore mods matters as does the triple model count ability on occasion. ooLos guns should never have been S8 to begin with. They also picked up an extra shot, so there's quite a bit to this.

Frankly I'd be happy if they removed all the character datasheets from the nids codex. As a faction it works better without the concept of unique characters. The Swarmlord makes sense as a specialist Hive Tyrant that gets birthed out to boss the other Hive Tyrants around during each invasion, but something like Old One Eye? It makes more sense as an Adaptive Physiology upgrade for Carnifexes, likewise the Red Terror as an Adaptive Physiology for a Trygon or Mawloc (yes, I know that the Red Terror is supposed to be an overgrown Ravener. Too bad, we're retconning it now), or Deathleaper as an AP for a Lictor.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Ugh, how does this crap get through playtesting? I agree, it needs to be nuked from orbit but there should also be some blanket errata to the Harridan and Hierophant datasheet that makes them ineligible for all but a select set of strats or something. It drives me bonkers when somebody goes to a tourney and crushes it with these interactions that were never intended.

I usually ignore those models anyway. The biggest sob will be a flyrant that just pulls itself out of combat and warps to the other flank.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Frankly I'd be happy if they removed all the character datasheets from the nids codex. As a faction it works better without the concept of unique characters. The Swarmlord makes sense as a specialist Hive Tyrant that gets birthed out to boss the other Hive Tyrants around during each invasion, but something like Old One Eye? It makes more sense as an Adaptive Physiology upgrade for Carnifexes, likewise the Red Terror as an Adaptive Physiology for a Trygon or Mawloc (yes, I know that the Red Terror is supposed to be an overgrown Ravener. Too bad, we're retconning it now), or Deathleaper as an AP for a Lictor.

I think that unique characters are a good thing for any army. Tyranids it just represents a unique evolution or one that requires rare resources so very very few are made. We know that whilst they have near perfect genetic manipulation its not absolutely perfect since they appear to need to have a challenge and rely partly on random evolutionary chance to develop stronger and stronger strains.

It also gets GW make and add new models to the army outside of regular troops and such. Granted GW hasn't really don't much of this with Tyranids. They did add a bunch at one stage, but never added any models; then withdrew them and we've VERY slowly seen one or two sort of re-appear (technically only one - the new model coming out soon). So its something GW has never really capitalised on. Heck I do wonder with the slow pace of some updates to Tyranids, if there's just no one on the team who wants to make more. That or GW are holding it in reserve for a big Necron style relaunch

I wish Tyranids had zero special characters. Just goes against their very nature. Locutus of 'Nid shouldn't be a thing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The extra T, W, and ignore mods matters as does the triple model count ability on occasion.

How much does extra T and W really matter when you're out of LOS anyway?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
ooLos guns should never have been S8 to begin with.

Because? Based on? Due to? What an arbitrary criticism. Should the Basilisk be reduced to S6 as well?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They also picked up an extra shot, so there's quite a bit to this.

And they lost 12" of range, can't shoot their guns as freely as they could, and sent to S6 from S8. And got more expensive. You can spin this as much as you like, it was a mega-nerf. Stop trying to pretend that it wasn't.

Yes, Hive Guard were a problem - I think anyone with half a brain cell could've figured that out - but GW didn't fix they issue. They just bashed them into the ground over and over again.

 Overread wrote:
I'm clearly missing some interaction here, but how is a unit functionally immortal with this?

Move, shoot, and take it off the table. Your opponent takes their turn. Then you pop back in on yours. If your opponent goes second they'll have one turn where it is on the table for them to shoot at it.

Just take loads of T8 monsters with a maleceptor for -1 S aura, all with obsec and count as 5.
in behemoth for +1S on shock assault
in Jormungandr monsters have dese cover when out side of 18" and non monster unit have it when outside of 12"

"A unit cannot be selected for this Stratagem if it was set up on the battlefield this turn"

You can't use it on something that arrived that turn.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I wish Tyranids had zero special characters. Just goes against their very nature. Locutus of 'Nid shouldn't be a thing.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The extra T, W, and ignore mods matters as does the triple model count ability on occasion.

How much does extra T and W really matter when you're out of LOS anyway?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
ooLos guns should never have been S8 to begin with.

Because? Based on? Due to? What an arbitrary criticism. Should the Basilisk be reduced to S6 as well?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They also picked up an extra shot, so there's quite a bit to this.

And they lost 12" of range, can't shoot their guns as freely as they could, and sent to S6 from S8. And got more expensive. You can spin this as much as you like, it was a mega-nerf. Stop trying to pretend that it wasn't.

Yes, Hive Guard were a problem - I think anyone with half a brain cell could've figured that out - but GW didn't fix they issue. They just bashed them into the ground over and over again.

Flyers, counter battery, deepstrikers, and moving up to cover objectives when needed.

Basilisk gets D6 shots for the price of two HG. That's absolutely a risk for making IG ooLOS shooting way too good in the future.

Old HG did 2.2 wounds to marines with D3 damage. New ones do 2.7 with flat 2. Heaven forbid you have to move a little now ( with an extra inch of movement ).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"A unit cannot be selected for this Stratagem if it was set up on the battlefield this turn"

You can't use it on something that arrived that turn.

Okay, fair. It would help if we were better readers like you . Happy to see one less potential degenerate thing.

As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.



Anyway, some more leaks have hit, including the various Spores (from small to transport), and the Adaptive Physiologies first page has leaked.

It's pretty much what you'd expect:

If your army is Battle Forged and has Hive Tendril detachments, then you can upgrade any Monster (not Character or Titanic) to get an Adaptive Physiology. You can now take all of them in a single army, but only one of each. No more double Dermic (and no strat to take a second of the same, far as I can tell).

Dermic - 25
Enraged - 25
Hardened Bio - 15
Pregoc - 20
Predator Instincts - 15
Synaptic Enhancement - 10
Voracious Ammo - 15
Whipcoil Reflexes - 15

So all the unit based ones are kaput,

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.

It got nerfs. It also got buffs. I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.

It got nerfs. It also got buffs. I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".

It got +1 shot. What other buff did it get?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
As usual D, posting a bunch of math doesn't change the fact that reducing a unit's abilities (significantly) whilst simultaneously increasing its cost is a nerf. And why are you firing S8 guns at Marines rather than tanks or monsters? It's a multi-shot S8 unit, and your argument is "Well the new one's better against Marines than the last one was!". I bet it's better against Guardsmen or Grots or Genestealers as well. But who cares? Why would you fire the last one at Marines??? This unit has been unnecessarily punished.

It got nerfs. It also got buffs. I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".

It was nerfed pretty hard. The +1 to hit and the statline update doesn't make up for the nerfs it got, as well as the price increase.

out of LOS shooting should cost a premimum, but I think the nerfs would have been enough without the price increase. or vice versa.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It got +1 shot. What other buff did it get?

A slight uptick in durability, something that's really needed on units that spent the entire game hiding.

Can't wait for the 2+ save and extra 8 wounds that all Guard artillery units have been crying out for... oh wait...

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I don't agree with the characterization of "nerf to oblivion" or "ground into the dirt".

S8 to S6, a loss of 12" of range, more restrictions on where it can fire and it got a price increase on top of all that. Oh, and now it has to compete with Exocrines, Tyrannofexes and Carnifexes.

If that isn't nerfed into the ground, then I don't know what is.