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 Redemption wrote:

Ryushi wrote:
No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?

A Crusher Stampede can't benefit from any Hive Fleet Adaptation, so no benefiting from Leviathan's trans-nid.

On the other hand, Leviathan psykers can use Hive Nexus to just use and reuse Zoanthropes' Warp Shield imperative ability, so you can put 5++ on units. So, crusher stampede isn't necessary to go nuts.

Voss wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

Ryushi wrote:
No flame, just asking to see i'f i'm reading this right or if i'm missing something. In a crusher stampede leviathan army the tyranid warriors can be a T5 3W 5++ permatranshuman obsec troop for 25 points/model?

A Crusher Stampede can't benefit from any Hive Fleet Adaptation, so no benefiting from Leviathan's trans-nid.

On the other hand, Leviathan psykers can use Hive Nexus to just use and reuse Zoanthropes' Warp Shield imperative ability, so you can put 5++ on units. So, crusher stampede isn't necessary to go nuts.

Hive Nexus only effects a single unit though, which is significantly less useful. It's not *bad* by any means (especially when giving a Monster a 4++), but it's not giving your entire army of Warriors that 5++.

On the other hand, transnid is arguably better than an army wide 5++, specially because it comes with either re-rolling one hit roll per phase or a trait of the Feed or Hunt tables. Plus no restrictions on units.

Depends on your list really.

Alcibiades wrote:
This elevation to 2+ saves everywhere doesn't sit will with me, not because of balance or anything important, but just because it doens't feel "right" that something made of meat, even Magic Space Meat, should be tougher than a main battle tank.

That's not a problem with the Tyranids though. That's a problem with how tanks - and vehicles in general - are handled across all of 40k.

 Tyran wrote:
On the other hand, transnid is arguably better than an army wide 5++, specially because it comes with either re-rolling one hit roll per phase or a trait of the Feed or Hunt tables. Plus no restrictions on units.

Depends on your list really.

Yeah, for warrior heavy nids, leviathan is really good, especially with the toughness upgrade. You need S5 weapons to wound them on 4+ in the first place, and everything over that is reduced. And if you really need to, you can pull out the reduced damage strat.
As someone found of medium bugs, leviathan is kind of an obvious choice.

Between s8 and their imperative, there are lots of reasons to field them. Hit on 2s, wound on 2s, good AP. Things just die.

Voss wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons

Meh. There's enough 5AP weaponry out there that it doesn't matter. If you really want to protect a tyranid monster in this codex, you go Leviathan, slap Synapse on it with Adaptive physiology (so it's only wounded on a 4+), and use Hive Nexus (leviathan psychic power) to use the Zoanthropes warp shield imperative and give it a 4++ every turn.

You only get each Imperative ONCE per game btw


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
On the other hand, transnid is arguably better than an army wide 5++, specially because it comes with either re-rolling one hit roll per phase or a trait of the Feed or Hunt tables. Plus no restrictions on units.

Depends on your list really.

Yeah, for warrior heavy nids, leviathan is really good, especially with the toughness upgrade. You need S5 weapons to wound them on 4+ in the first place, and everything over that is reduced. And if you really need to, you can pull out the reduced damage strat.
As someone found of medium bugs, leviathan is kind of an obvious choice.

Between s8 and their imperative, there are lots of reasons to field them. Hit on 2s, wound on 2s, good AP. Things just die.

Ya; I'll Waffle on Behemoth and Leviathan a lot. Both have access to army-wide Heroic Intervention but I love +1S Shock Assault and the Strat/Spell Behemoth has. Yet Leviathan's durabiilty is pretty impressive.

Bitharne wrote:

Voss wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
2+ saves on the big critters is probably necessary from a balance perspective, given how lethal this edition is and how commonplace AP has become on even standard infantry weapons

Meh. There's enough 5AP weaponry out there that it doesn't matter. If you really want to protect a tyranid monster in this codex, you go Leviathan, slap Synapse on it with Adaptive physiology (so it's only wounded on a 4+), and use Hive Nexus (leviathan psychic power) to use the Zoanthropes warp shield imperative and give it a 4++ every turn.

You only get each Imperative ONCE per game btw

Yep. But the Hive Nexus psychic power just turns it on for a unit. The wording could be more clear (I'm sure some will quibble) but you aren't selecting a Synaptic Imperative for the army again. You're just granting the target Imperative to a unit temporarily.
It'd be an incredibly poor power if it counted as a 'you cannot select a unit's Synaptic Imperiative if you have selected that ability earlier in the battle.'

It says "as if it were active". I don't think that means it counts as 'using up' the Imperative for that game.

So that combo should work no issues.

Oooo, spiffy

For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option... not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists on Termagants.

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:
For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option. Not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists.

A unique solution to the problem, to be sure

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:
For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option... not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists on Termagants.

Honestly frustrating for me because I love Devilgaunts and being able to heal broods of them is a great buff but then they ruined it by removing a shot from the Devourer for no reason.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:
For what it's worth, Tervigons can replenish any type of Termagant. The only time it must spawn Fleshborer-toting Termagants is if it elects to use the once-per-battle option... not that anyone in their right mind is going to use Devourers or Spinefists on Termagants.

Honestly frustrating for me because I love Devilgaunts and being able to heal broods of them is a great buff but then they ruined it by removing a shot from the Devourer for no reason.

Ya' know... if you love them, keep using them. None of this is static; it's all dynamic... every edition ushers in winners and losers, but the resourcefulness of players will find a niche for everything. There are a few hive fleet adaptations, unit abilities and stratagems that can make Devilgaunts work. I think the only absolutely unacceptable part about Termagants was the increase in points per model and then another for Devourers. As-is, they should be a free exchange... even if they FAQ'd Devourers back to their old profile on Day 1, they should still be a free exchange. 7 points per model... you must be joking, Willis.

On the bright side, if there are 15 Termagants in a unit near a Tervigon then the Tervigon can't be shot at. That's nice.

And Synaptic Backlach is gone.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
On the bright side, if there are 15 Termagants in a unit near a Tervigon then the Tervigon can't be shot at. That's nice.

And Synaptic Backlach is gone.

Not to nitpick, but the rule stipulates that the Termagant brood must also be closer to the enemy than the Tervigon in addition to being 15+ and within 1" of the Tervigon... so positioning is important here. A clever and dedicated opponent can maneuver around the Wall Of Flesh rule.

But, yes, Synaptic Backlash is gone. Huzzah.

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
On the bright side, if there are 15 Termagants in a unit near a Tervigon then the Tervigon can't be shot at. That's nice.

And Synaptic Backlach is gone.

Not to nitpick, but the rule stipulates that the Termagant brood must also be closer to the enemy than the Tervigon in addition to being 15+ and within 1" of the Tervigon... so positioning is important here. A clever and dedicated opponent can maneuver around the Wall Of Flesh rule.

But, yes, Synaptic Backlash is gone. Huzzah.

Between that and Crossfire I welcome our new positioning based meta.

Devourers are bad, but spinefists are 2 pistol shots for free, run Gorgon and they are better than fleshborers because you no longer care about low S.

 Tyran wrote:
Devourers are bad, but spinefists are 2 pistol shots for free, run Gorgon and they are better than fleshborers because you no longer care about low S.

Yeah, Spinefists finally having a home is good. I just don't get the Devourer nerf is all. S3, AP-, Assault 3 was good balance point and with Fleshborers being the default Tervigon spawn and getting buffed there was a good balance there between them. My only guess is someone on the design team got bodied one too many times by Devilgaunts in the past.

That or there is some combo I have quite seen that makes them worth using still.

Just an amusing combo I noticed:

Kronos + Tervigon + Termagants + Scorch Bugs + Symbiostorm.

30x Fleshborer shots with a 28" range that are S7 AP-1 and AP-2 at 14". Tervigon can use it's Synaptic Link (Brood Progenitor) on them so they hit on 3+ instead of 4+.

I have a question about Synaptic Link abilities. The wording for all of them says, "... that has not already been selected for this ability for this turn." Because Brood Progenitor is the ability and I also want to smash them with Alpha Warrior from a Tyranid Prime so they can also re-roll 1's to wound because why not. While I'm at it, why not broadcast the Guidemind Synaptic Imperative from the Tyranid Prime as well for exploding 6's? Yaaay.

 Tyran wrote:
Devourers are bad, but spinefists are 2 pistol shots for free, run Gorgon and they are better than fleshborers because you no longer care about low S.

But you might well still care about range and AP. And you're still losing out on wounding on 3s against most infantry rather than 4s.

Gorgon probably isn't the worst fleet,* but you really have to go all-in on little guys and go out of your way to avoid fleshborers to make it worthwhile. Almost everything else can push (or just has) strength high enough that it doesn't matter, except against vehicles, and Gorgon's base trait doesn't help there anyway. Even Venomthropes and Zoanthropes are punching down on marines, and are innately 4+ to wound against necron immortals, orks and death guard

*that 'honor' likely goes to Kronos or Hydra, if only because their adaptive traits are the least bad parts. Jormungandr can at least trade off its really bad bit.
Though lets be honest, Hydra's the worst.

ClockworkZion wrote:That or there is some combo I have quite seen that makes them worth using still.

Eh. You can pay CP to get the toxin sacs effect on shooting (2 cp, or 1 if you paid for toxin sacs on... termagants).
Scorchbugs exists, still, but its mostly for that moment you really need the range or desperately want S6 fleshborers against a very small selection of targets.
Exocrine one is pretty much the only shooting strat that seems worthwhile.

There are a couple ways to negate the advance and shoot penalty.

The best shooting buff is probably the Tyranid primes 'Guidemind' Imperative, where 6s create additional hits. But that's really another notch for fleshborers, warrior deathspitters or dakkafexes. Most things (well, fleshborer hive, but that'd be my last choice for a tyrannofex) don't get enough shots to matter.


----
Melee combos are much more ridiculous.
Kraken Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands and the Searhive, and the enhanced senses Warlord Trait. and buffed by the Adrenal Surge strat.
13+d3 attacks, fights first and can reroll all hit rolls, everything autowounds (against non-vehicles and non-monsters), and -4 AP. 2 damage per attack. It basically just kills units.

Add in the tyranid warrior's synaptic imperative (6s to hit become additional hits)
If you like, swap the adaptive trait for double the # of wounds remaining to determine the stat bracket, just so it stays dangerous.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Between that and Crossfire I welcome our new positioning based meta.

Shame it still doesn't apply to vehicles. Or LOS in general (remember: you can't shoot this Hive Tyrant, but can shoot this Hive Tyrant!).

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:
Just an amusing combo I noticed:

Kronos + Tervigon + Termagants + Scorch Bugs + Symbiostorm.

30x Fleshborer shots with a 28" range that are S7 AP-1 and AP-2 at 14". Tervigon can use it's Synaptic Link (Brood Progenitor) on them so they hit on 3+ instead of 4+.

I have a question about Synaptic Link abilities. The wording for all of them says, "... that has not already been selected for this ability for this turn." Because Brood Progenitor is the ability and I also want to smash them with Alpha Warrior from a Tyranid Prime so they can also re-roll 1's to wound because why not. While I'm at it, why not broadcast the Guidemind Synaptic Imperative from the Tyranid Prime as well for exploding 6's? Yaaay.

Alpha Warrior isn't Brood Progenitor (this ability refers to each individual ability), so both work. There really isn't such a thing (in game terms) as a Synaptic Link ability. Its just that some ranges refer to 'Synaptic Link Range.' The 12" chain between synpase creatures is all that matters. Big Warrior units make this stupidly good, by the way (though not as good as it could be thanks to the 6+ model coherency rules). Which matters for all the basic psychic powers except Smite and Psychic Scream. You can buff or debuff from across the entire table if you set up right.

Voss wrote:

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:
Just an amusing combo I noticed:

Kronos + Tervigon + Termagants + Scorch Bugs + Symbiostorm.

30x Fleshborer shots with a 28" range that are S7 AP-1 and AP-2 at 14". Tervigon can use it's Synaptic Link (Brood Progenitor) on them so they hit on 3+ instead of 4+.

I have a question about Synaptic Link abilities. The wording for all of them says, "... that has not already been selected for this ability for this turn." Because Brood Progenitor is the ability and I also want to smash them with Alpha Warrior from a Tyranid Prime so they can also re-roll 1's to wound because why not. While I'm at it, why not broadcast the Guidemind Synaptic Imperative from the Tyranid Prime as well for exploding 6's? Yaaay.

Alpha Warrior isn't Brood Progenitor (this ability refers to each individual ability), so both work. There really isn't such a thing (in game terms) as a Synaptic Link ability. Its just that some ranges refer to 'Synaptic Link Range.' The 12" chain between synpase creatures is all that matters. Big Warrior units make this stupidly good, by the way (though not as good as it could be thanks to the 6+ model coherency rules). Which matters for all the basic psychic powers except Smite and Psychic Scream. You can buff or debuff from across the entire table if you set up right.

Errr... yeah, I know that Synaptic Link really just describes a system rather than an individual rule itself. I was just imagining there might be some confusion when people see the words "Synaptic Link" and immediately think about how they were implemented and operated in the prior supplement. Anyway, dangerous Termagants, here I come. lol.

I'm really interested on giving Gorgon a try with lots of Homagaunts and even get some use out of my devilgants. In Gorgon, hormagaunts with Toxin Sacs seem like they could dish out a lot of wounds to anything. Toxin Sacs aren't limited to non-vehicles either. The strat and psychic powers would make them even more deadly.

Unrelated to Gorgon, the secondary objectives seem terrible. They are all very situational or would only get you around 4 points.

Synaptic Insight seems only good against custodes or deathwing, and only if you have a lot of synapse. It seems like it would force you to make sub-optimal plays to try and maximize points because killing 2 12 wound tanks gets you no more points than killing a 3 wound model and a 12 wound tank. Spore Nodes seems viable but you would need to run a lot of min Gargoyle squads since only Troops can score it. The other troops are going to be too far away or trying to get into melee. Cranial Feast is interesting since you can get CP but it has so many hoops to jump through and poor rolls could mean you get nothing.

Voss wrote:
ñ
But you might well still care about range and AP. And you're still losing out on wounding on 3s against most infantry rather than 4s.

And you are gaining double the amount of shots and the ability to shoot into melee.

It is a fair trade IMHO.

@shamroll- Spore nodes also has an extra quirk, where you can start the action 6" away from the deployment zone, but have to put the marker wholly within it and be within 1" of the marker. Its...wacky.


---

 Tyran wrote:

Voss wrote:
ñ
But you might well still care about range and AP. And you're still losing out on wounding on 3s against most infantry rather than 4s.

And you are gaining double the amount of shots and the ability to shoot into melee.

It is a fair trade IMHO.

Eh. The math might be worth working out- its too late to do it myself, but I don't think wounding on 3s and reducing armor saves is that much worse than 4+ and no AP on 2 shots.
And then the range factor on top (where the spinegants _are_ in charge range, and the the fleshgants may not be, or can shoot and sit on an objective, while the spines might have to move off or out of cover)
Plus the _much_ better ability to strip some wounds off vehicles and monsters, and just generally be more threatening to characters and heavy infantry.

Voss wrote:

----
Melee combos are much more ridiculous.
Kraken Trygon Prime with Adrenal Glands and the Searhive, and the enhanced senses Warlord Trait. and buffed by the Adrenal Surge strat.
13+d3 attacks, fights first and can reroll all hit rolls, everything autowounds (against non-vehicles and non-monsters), and -4 AP. 2 damage per attack. It basically just kills units.

Add in the tyranid warrior's synaptic imperative (6s to hit become additional hits)
If you like, swap the adaptive trait for double the # of wounds remaining to determine the stat bracket, just so it stays dangerous.

Woof, if my math is right thats going to average about 15 hits before the profile degrades. Will delete everything except blobs of conscripts and cultists, etc.

New article up:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/17/more-wounds-more-attacks-more-carnage-your-tyranid-monsters-are-evolving/

They also mention that each scything talon grants an additional attack, instead of one for each pair.

Voss wrote:
Eh. The math might be worth working out- its too late to do it myself, but I don't think wounding on 3s and reducing armor saves is that much worse than 4+ and no AP on 2 shots.
And then the range factor on top (where the spinegants _are_ in charge range, and the the fleshgants may not be, or can shoot and sit on an objective, while the spines might have to move off or out of cover)
Plus the _much_ better ability to strip some wounds off vehicles and monsters, and just generally be more threatening to characters and heavy infantry.

FWIW:

Against T4/3+, a single Fleshborer Termagant averages 0.17 wounds.
A Spinefists Gorgon Termagant averages 0.17. So it's a wash.

Against T3/5+, a single Fleshborer Termagant averages 0.28 wounds.
A Spinefists Gorgon Termagant averages 0.33.

I am inclined to agree with you; there's no firepower advantage, and I'd rather have the extra range over shooting in melee.

And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.

Depends on the target and your meta.