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 Jidmah wrote:
The correct answer is, that instead of boyz, you bring more MANz. MANz are 105 points now, a unit of boyz with a PK is 100. There is no reason not to upgrade.If you have maxed out MANz, you bring, kommadoz. If you have maxed out those, you bring storm boyz. Maxed out storm boyz? Bring warbikers or squig hogs. There is nothing boyz can do that these units can't do more efficiently - except fill a troops slot for a free patrol.

Those units cost more, swing less, and are limited by Ro3. I'm not advocating for replacement of all other units to the exclusion of Boyz. And I'm not saying Boyz are better than those units.

 Jidmah wrote:

Against what? T3 units with bad saves that can't fight back? Do you need a unit that is slightly above average at killing something that can be killed by anything?

Drop your armchair theory for a moment, proxy some boyz and do some actual charges and dice rolls against some common objective campers like any of the primaris troops, necron warriors, a unit of sisters or rubrics using common army traits and stratagems. See how that works for you. If you want to do it in a scientific way, do it ten times and record those tries.
Without the Waaagh! boyz already struggle to take down pox walkers, and that is generously assuming they didn't take casualties from overwatch, their transport exploding or other things.

I use Unit Crunch, which essentially rolls dice so things like D3 damage gets rolled instead of averaged. I guess we can use AotF Wracks, Emperor's Chosen Saggitarum ( popular pick, but no benefits ), and some marines ( GK ).

Manz v Boyz

Wracks

Saggitarum

Marines



These show Boyz are on par or better than MANZ in melee against stuff they want to face. Boyz could actually get through Wracks -- MANZ will be tied up for the rest of the game. MANZ can catch a clear edge against W3 stuff with their 2CP strat.

Obviously Boyz are soft. MANZ are also soft when they get hit by Dark Lances. Boyz take better advantage of Waaagh as a force multiplier. I do wish they had some useful ( but not overbearing strats ) and that spells were easier to get onto them.

Casting Da Jump is unreliable and when multiplied with the chance to fail the charge is already doing a great job of protecting the ork's enemies from it all by itself, let alone how unlikely you are to find a good spot to plonk down 30 32mm bases if you go second.

You don't need to charge after Jump if you can get good sight blocking. You just need to be in a good position to go next turn and honestly I'd do 20 Boyz instead of 30.

I'm convinced that your opinion solely stems from never having experienced that first hand.

Negatory. My primary play partner is Orks. When I get some time I'll put the list on TTS and give it a go against someone.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Ok let me illustrate.
Transport with unit gets deployed. Another backfield unit is also deployed.
Turn 1 - transport moves up and disgorges payload
Turn 2 - payload is dead, but opponent is weak on that flank; redundant unit takes control of backfield unit and previous objective holder moves into transport; transport pushes forward as fast as possible
Turn 3 - unit jumps out and rushes onto opponent's objective / target

Let me illustrate, specifically in terms of Ork boyz since this topic relates to that and not rhinos or impulsors.

Turn 1: Transport moves and advances D6 because even without advance the unit inside CAN NOT GET OUT.
Turn 2: Unit gets out within 3, moves 5, advances D6. Total movement now is 12+3.5+3+5+3.5 for a grand total of 27 inches. WITHOUT the trukk those boyz would have moved 17 inches on average. So that 70pts of a trukk bought you 10' inches of movement. Regardless, Turn 2 call WAAAGH and charge 2D6, Turn 2 you will be in CC. Unfortunately you are left with 36 S4 attacks hitting on 3s wounding most things on 4-5s. you also get whatever you equipped the nob with, i personally run mine naked with an extra choppa for 6 attacks at S5.

Turn 2 - Part2: Transport after disembarking than either A: Runs forward to eat overwatch, use ramming speed, or just tie something valuable up, or B: as you mentioned, runs backwards to pickup its next unit which will then not be USEFUL until turn 4.

At absolute best you are using a Trukk to propel a unit of boyz into a more likely turn 2 charge, but that really isn't worth the 70pt price tag, nor is a unit of boyz all that scary to begin with.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Even a static transport is a launching pad if you want it to be. A Trukk is 5". An average run for Boyz is 8". Shave 3 to 4" off to be fully within. Disembark the next turn fully within 3" then advance 8". That's a 20" move. Boyz on foot would otherwise go 16" assuming the same advance rolls. If the unit is smaller then getting fully within is easier and you go "further".
But, I forgot that opponents can kill anything at will, everything dies instantly, there is no positional play in 40K, and there is absolutely no reason to plan turns in advance.

There is literally no point for this. First off, the unit benefits most from starting inside the transport, so turn 1 it has a unit inside. Turn 2 that first unit gets out and the 2nd unit which ran behind it gets in, turn 3 it uses that as a 5-8' additional movement, which means at best your infantry unit is assaulting turn 3...where the game is likely decided already. Especially since this little tactic of yours relies on a unit of 10 boyz in the open surviving a full turn exposed to enemy firepower. And while no, your opponent can't kill everything at will, its not exactly a great tactic to rely upon your opponent not seeing a relatively squishy 90pt unit on the table and not at least dedicating a few anti-infantry weapons to it. And remember, kill 3-4 boyz and the unit likely fails morale and more importantly loses 1-2 more models to that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Hiding is NOT difficult if you're playing on GW terrain. I get that lots of people don't want to do that, but if we don't want to discuss the game as it is currently designed I don't know what else to tell you.

Hiding is in fact rather hard to do on tables, especially tournament tables. While yes you can absolutely hide a unit behind LOS blocking terrain, that piece is usually so big that it defeats most movement next turn because its so large that it takes an extra 5-6' just to maneuver around it. And a unit not being productive for likely 2 turns is a unit that doesn't get played with. 1st turn hide, 2nd turn maneuver around terrain, 3rd turn deploy/assault. That isn't even a beta strike list, thats a tertiary strike list

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Boyz do work in melee.
It becomes a matter of priorities. If you have a 30 mob just hanging in the wind it will get shot to hell. If you have MANZ in one transport and Boyz in another, which are you going to spill out first? If you also have 10 Kommandos in cover where is your focus? Grots on the backfield? What are you doing to shield from Jump and Tellyporta Boyz?
If HH go bananas then knocking transports becomes easy ( though BW don't go terribly easy ) and the terrain you use becomes way more important.

....No...they don't. If they did work in Melee they would be a lot more prevalent. The problem is that they aren't durable, they aren't fast and when they finally do get into CC they are S4 and have 4 attacks during a WAAAGH at -1AP. They have no support from strats worth mentioning, and if your opponent has a fights first/last option they can significantly degrade what little those boyz can do. And nobody, literally NOBODY in the competitive meta is running 30 blobs or even 20 because morale guts them and getting them into CC relies on da jump or teleport strike which leaves them exposed more than 50% of the time which means you just pissed away a solid 10%+ of your army for nothing other than a bullet sponge.

In your example, yeah target priority. But lets put that into perspective. Why would I spend 160pts on a Boyz trukk missile when I could just take a Manz missile for the same price? And i'm of the opinion that manz suck mind you

As far as "shielding" from Da Jump and Tellyporta? Nobody is because nobody does this because its too unreliable and even when it does work its not that impressive. Those were 8th edition tactics that worked because of reliability and destructive potential. "Oh no my 30 boyz didn't finish off their target...whatever shall I do? Oh thats right, fight twice strat" And more importantly "Oh no, my boyz got heavily mauled when they failed their charge! Whatever shall I do? Oh yeah Endless green tide, I just brought back a unit from 3 models left to having a full 30" Those strats are both gone which leaves boys unsupported for the most part.

 Jidmah wrote:

Honestly, I would scrap the "unless open-topped". Being able to shoot out of the transport with the entire unit when no one else can is already a great thing, and jumping out of open tropped transport after advancing is just bound to result in something terrible for the other two armies with open topped vehicles: Harlequins and Drukhari.

I don't remember clearly how it worked in 5th, but IIRC you also had to slow down to have models jump out and charge. Maybe even return to how it was back then, jump out and shoot for everyone, charge only when stationary, open topped or if you had an assault ramp.

Shooting out of open Topped: I Agree...except we don't have any units worth doing this with. Burna boyz? 8 D6 S4 auto-hits...averages 28 hits, 14 wounds and against Marines that is 4.6dmg or 2 dead Marines. Not exactly enticing at 180pts Tankbustas suck, flashgitz are over priced and not worth it...shoota boyz make burna boyz look like gold etc etc.

Honestly, I think the only way to make Trukkz and boyz worth taking in 9th would be to allow boyz to be trukk boyz without the loss of Kulture. Maybe limit that to rule of 3? but that is still a hefty investment. A Naked boyz mob of 10 in a naked trukk is 160pts. 3 of those are 480pts or 1/4th your army basically. I'd be fine with this not being a strictly open topped rule and only for boyz and trukks. It might actually make them playable. Likewise though, I'd still likely take 2-3 detachments because I want my warbosses

Tyel wrote:
I think Goff Boyz in a Waaagh work in melee. I agree however delivery and just getting around the board is however a major problem - and trukks don't cut it.

Goff Boyz in a WAAAGH DO work in Melee, the problem is getting them into CC without them being dead or over costed thanks to a Trukk. 10 boyz (no nob for simplicity) as Goff in a waaagh get 40 attacks, 33.3 hits, against T4 thats 22.2 Wounds and 11.1dmg vs a 3+ that is pretty damn good! But its incredibly difficult/impossible to get them into that CC scenario because 5' movement, bad transport options, no durability, morale issues etc.

Tyel wrote:
Moreover, if say you didn't want to go Goffs - say you went ES for the extra movement (which will add up over 2-3 turns). Now as Jidmah suggests your boyz can't reliably deal with anything above guardsmen. Which is just bad.

Correct. 10 boyz without Goff, just with WAAAGH get 40 attacks, 26.6 hits, 13.3 wounds and against 3+ Marines that is 4dmg. So again, 160pts kills 40ish in their best phase...garbage tier.

Tyel wrote:
With that said, Semper was I think making Trukk Boyz work? Unless you've changed your list/moved on to Manz/I'm just misremembering. But I guess the issue is first turn charge into what you want tends to beat "2nd turn, probably running into a screen".

I absolutely make trukk boyz work, and I still use them in every competitive list I use. Why? Because they tie things up and are relatively durable in my list thanks to turn 1 threat overload.

To make them work though my entire list except for 3 mek gunz is dedicated to Turn 1 Alpha strike and 3 Warbosses who are a Turn 2 Beta strike. The thing is, I never expect them to accomplish anything except tying something up so any units that didn't make it to CC turn 2 aren't shot off the board.

Recently played a tournament with my Alphork strike list, Kommandos and deffkoptas yet again proved their worth while my trukk boyz were just as disappointing as ever in terms of dmg output. The highlight for them though was a game against an Ad-Mech player with 3 Disintegrators. I was able to tie all 3 up turn 1 with trukk boyz and trukkz and surround him to the point where he couldn't escape. The 160pt investment to tie up a 145pt Ad-mech asset was steep but I was able to hold out long enough to tie them up for 3 full turns, or another way to put that, until my Kommandos, Warbosses and Deffkoptas had finished off the rest of his army and could come over and assist.

And I really want to focus on this before Daed gets any ideas... The only reasons they work is because A: They are surrounded by other Alpha Strike threats and B: because they get a 1 per detachment special rule which allows them to Move inside the trukk, disembark, move, advance and charge all first turn. That gives them an AVERAGE threat range of about 31' and a MAX threat range of 38' TURN 1!

Thats why Trukk boyz work in my alphork strike list...Why do Kommandos work? Because they can start the game 9' from the enemy lines, why do I think Kroot work? Because they get a free 7' movement which means without advancing, turn 1 they could likely have as little as a 4' charge.

You could try and waste points to do something like da jump which has unreliability on every step, the casting, the having space to put boyz part, the charge or having cover nearby.
Or you could just use kommandos, bikers, or stormboyz.

Boyz just don’t work at any point level, and I don’t think they should be buffed to match their 9 point thing. Just revert boyz to 8th alongside kff. Put 8th boyz (old mob rule and ere we go) at 7 points, and alls good.

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
You could try and waste points to do something like da jump which has unreliability on every step, the casting, the having space to put boyz part, the charge or having cover nearby.
Or you could just use kommandos, bikers, or stormboyz.

Boyz just don’t work at any point level, and I don’t think they should be buffed to match their 9 point thing. Just revert boyz to 8th alongside kff. Put 8th boyz (old mob rule and ere we go) at 7 points, and alls good.

Buuutttttt were old boyz actually good or were they simply the best of a bad bunch? If you get the option to rewrite a unit, take advantage.

Dudeface wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
You could try and waste points to do something like da jump which has unreliability on every step, the casting, the having space to put boyz part, the charge or having cover nearby.
Or you could just use kommandos, bikers, or stormboyz.

Boyz just don’t work at any point level, and I don’t think they should be buffed to match their 9 point thing. Just revert boyz to 8th alongside kff. Put 8th boyz (old mob rule and ere we go) at 7 points, and alls good.

Buuutttttt were old boyz actually good or were they simply the best of a bad bunch? If you get the option to rewrite a unit, take advantage.

They like, don’t really need one?, 8th boyz were basically the same as going all the way back to 3rd boyz, just built in strength from furious charge and a good charge reroll. They’re simple guys, and the only issues I have stem from kit stuff. I’d love to have the option for ‘ard armor, kmb, skorcha, burna, zzap, more big choppas, and kombis, but that’s wargear. Rules wise they were really perfect in 8th, though maybe a point too high.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Because Crusher Stampede has transports? Why would Wracks need transport when they're already super durable and mobile? Custodes? GK has Interceptors and teleport, soo....

Didn't you just say:

"Also, I never said high level. Why? Because those armies are almost all transport barren right now."

So are good armies transport barren or not? Quit talking out of both sides of your mouth.

It's literally an opportunity play. It isn't something you explicitly plan to do when you start a game. As the game develops you make a plan and react.

Against that list I have three major concerns: 1) losing backfield to Disintegrators, 2) the exploding 6s Stalkers, and 3) the Telemetry Rangers ( because I simply won't be able to kill them ). My opportunity target is the Marshall with rr1s to hit and wound.

I am absolutely not concerned about his ranged anti-tank capability.

If the mission is Take and Hold I have time to let him come towards me since he has no teleport. Domination might be harder. Rhinos will be important to redeploy away from the Telemetry Rangers because I won't even bother attacking them, put flamer Rubrics in the ( indirect ) path of Stalkers, and to keep units safe from indirect fire when possible.

If the Rhinos are sufficiently wounded there will be move blocking opportunities to place the Rhinos between Stalkers and my backfield objectives. If they have too much health he won't kill them and could potentially wrap me and stay in combat until his turn. Otherwise it puts them in a spot where I can move and advance on them with flamers. Someone like Siegler would be unlikely to make that blunder so I might stash a rhino within one of the larger ruins to keep other blocks easily coming through that angle.

There is no way I will be able to open holes in his backfield so my terminators will just be deepstriking towards the side away from Telemetry Rangers and trying to push the other block out. If I have transports and I feel like I can make headway into his objective then I'll pick up my units and start rotating them - A goes to B, B goes to C.

But how I react depends on the number of objectives, my secondaries and his ( of which I know one ), as well as the deployment zones and mission itself among a million other things that can happen.

I gave you all of that. Take the ITC setup he just won and sub your forces in for Matt's. You're going first, how do you play the game out? Does your list even have a prayer of making it a close game?

I ask this because I don't feel like you're building or playing optimized lists against opponents who want to beat you. You seem to be playing games on tables with a larger than average level of terrain, with lists that aren't optimized, against players who don't treat the game seriously. Your meta cannot be used as a measuring stick because it doesn't produce enough data and doesn't feature the kinds of outlier lists that cause balance concerns in the first place.

It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

 Niiai wrote:
It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

I wouldn't sat THAT painful. They can kill 3 Necron Immortals on the charge, which honestly isn't impressive once you factor in how long it took to get there.

Kroot will only be better than Boyz once they can take a hidden leader in their unit that has access to a power fist. The novelty of Boys is that they are a meat shield for something that CAN cause pain. A single Nob with ablative wounds can mess up a marine unit pretty good if it gets the charge.

 Niiai wrote:
It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

What are you letting Ork Boyz charge that they're doing 'painful' damage to? Space Wolves have some tough units and enough screens that any unit of Boyz should only hit what you let them hit.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Kroot will only be better than Boyz once they can take a hidden leader in their unit that has access to a power fist. The novelty of Boys is that they are a meat shield for something that CAN cause pain. A single Nob with ablative wounds can mess up a marine unit pretty good if it gets the charge.

3 attacks
3/2 hits
15/12 or 5/4 wounds
25/24 failed saves

That's, uh... One dead Marine from the Nob with a Klaw.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Because Crusher Stampede has transports? Why would Wracks need transport when they're already super durable and mobile? Custodes? GK has Interceptors and teleport, soo....

Didn't you just say:

"Also, I never said high level. Why? Because those armies are almost all transport barren right now."

So are good armies transport barren or not? Quit talking out of both sides of your mouth.

...I'm not...nothing in my statements conflict. I'm not talking about high level armies, because those armies run in configurations where transports don't make sense. You don't put a carnifex in a transport...

Good =/= "high level"
"high level" =/= a specific set of armies ( e.g. Siegler )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
I gave you all of that. Take the ITC setup he just won and sub your forces in for Matt's. You're going first, how do you play the game out? Does your list even have a prayer of making it a close game?

I ask this because I don't feel like you're building or playing optimized lists against opponents who want to beat you. You seem to be playing games on tables with a larger than average level of terrain, with lists that aren't optimized, against players who don't treat the game seriously. Your meta cannot be used as a measuring stick because it doesn't produce enough data and doesn't feature the kinds of outlier lists that cause balance concerns in the first place.

Man alive. Lists are optimized. I play Thicc City and Iron Hands bodyguard spam all the time. I'm just not jumping armies to win. Terrain is literally GW spec.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
...I'm not...nothing in my statements conflict. I'm not talking about high level armies, because those armies run in configurations where transports don't make sense. You don't put a carnifex in a transport...

Good =/= "high level"
"high level" =/= a specific set of armies ( e.g. Siegler )

So can a "good" list ever compete against a "high level"? Beyond that, where's the line between "good", "high level", and then, presumably, "average" and "bad"?

Man alive. Lists are optimized. I play Thicc City and Iron Hands bodyguard spam all the time. I'm just not jumping armies to win. Terrain is literally GW spec.

GW spec =/= tournament spec. Do you play on terrain that looks like common tournament tables?

Terrain is same type and quantity as LVO minus player placed terrain unless we're at a GT that does that, which is fairly rare on the east coast so far it seems. There's even Necron Tomb World stuff that is super hard to navigate and hide behind. Our group frequents majors and super majors.

So can a "good" list ever compete against a "high level"?

Yes.

Beyond that, where's the line between "good", "high level", and then, presumably, "average" and "bad"?

You'd have to study the degree of loss ( separation in points ) and the quality of loss ( how much you were tabled by ). Armies or lists who go 95 to 80 against Thicc City are not "bad" ( this is an opinion ) even if they lose 70% of their games.

When we look at win rates we're seeing nothing about the severity of wins between these armies. Playing DE means you can't make mistakes if you want to win, but not that you don't get a good game.

 Niiai wrote:
It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

10 Ork boyz, on a regular turn, no extra buffs. 30 attacks, 20 hits, against T4 thats 10 wounds and against 3+ thats 5 dmg. That is 2.5 dead Marines. Against Tau firewarriors its 13-14ish wounds and against their 4+ save thats 8.8 dead Tau. So an incredibly slow CC only unit can inflict marginal dmg against Medium-Heavy infantry and significant dmg against light infantry. Not exactly "Painful" especially when you consider that 10 Man Tau firewarrior unit kills 2-3 boyz a turn at max range and 5 at half range. And since half range is 18' that is still pretty far away. 2 rounds of shooting will GUT a boyz unit to hte point where it dies to morale.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Kroot will only be better than Boyz once they can take a hidden leader in their unit that has access to a power fist. The novelty of Boys is that they are a meat shield for something that CAN cause pain. A single Nob with ablative wounds can mess up a marine unit pretty good if it gets the charge.

no...that is how orkz used to be. That hasn't been true in 2 editions now. A nob with PK is pathetic compared to what he used to be. 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, likely 1.25 wounds and -3AP means likely 1 dead Marine. I'll put it to you this way. I don't take PK's anymore EXCEPT on warbosses and only to get the relic one, and only on Kommandos because its a 5pt upgrade and ALWAYS wounds on 2s thanks to their +1 to wound special rule.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Terrain is same type and quantity as LVO minus player placed terrain unless we're at a GT that does that, which is fairly rare on the east coast so far it seems. There's even Necron Tomb World stuff that is super hard to navigate and hide behind. Our group frequents majors and super majors.

So you're on the tournament grind but won't change factions to really compete and are thus stuck bringing second or third-tier armies that can take the earlier rounds, maybe win against a gatekeeper, and then struggle against the top cuts running killer lists. I'm guessing a lot of 3-2 and 2-3 scores with wins in early rounds and then a bunch of near wins and close losses as things tighten up.

Where do you rank in terms of rating within the faction you play?

You'd have to study the degree of loss ( separation in points ) and the quality of loss ( how much you were tabled by ). Armies or lists who go 95 to 80 against Thicc City are not "bad" ( this is an opinion ) even if they lose 70% of their games.

This is where our disagreement lies. Given that Thicc City isn't taking top-8 results regularly it is itself only a good or even an average list, so failing to beat it is the sign of a bad list or a bad player piloting it. Essentially, to me, a bad list is one that can't reasonably beat even an average list without some luck or a large skill gap. An average list could beat all-comers but is poorly favored in key matchups and also doesn't routinely beat the meta's gatekeepers. A good list can beat any list but is poorly favored against the top tier of lists, these are the gatekeepers of the format. Above that, you get top lists and tier 0 lists that need balance adjustments.

I don't view fluffy lists and garage hammer as worth balancing because more often than not player skill gaps will trump the lists at that level.

-----

But none of this has to do with the topic.

Do you think Boyz + Trukk is actually better than two units of Kroot for the same cost and are transports, in a general sense, actually worth it in a list that has pretensions of taking consistent top-16s at majors? The few cases where transports are used are generally due to very specific cases, often down to the subfaction level but you seem to think they have general uses cases and can be "good". I'm trying to figure out if the breakdown is in how good is defined or if we disagree on the value of transports within the top-16 and better meta at major tournaments.

Only got two majors in so I don't really rank highly, but that's roughly correct. Always second bracket instead of first so far. I'm 40% WR vs DE of various flavors.

I don't particularly mind if I don't podium and I don't think switching armies is necessary. There has always been something to learn from in my games. Until that isn't a thing switching does me no good. There's absolutely a mental and, to a lesser extent, physical fortitude necessary for a two day tournament.

I'm only referencing Thicc City since it the meme of the moment ( until Crisis Bombs or some other T'au nonsense hits ).

Do you think Boyz + Trukk is actually better than two units of Kroot for the same cost

In gakky math-hammer world two units of Kroot in Mont'ka targeting a Trukk will kill it 4.4% of the time. 10 Boyz Waaaghing into Kroot would kill 18, so total wipeout, basically. Kroot are LD6 if they don't outpace their Shaper / Ethereal. Obviously if a HH can ace the Trukk and then the Kroot shoot they'll kill all but 1 or 2 Boyz, but put twice the points into doing so. If you can cut down the angles from anti-tank and keep the Trukk alive until Boyz are in then you're trading positive and stripping their objective control.

Trukk and Boyz are absolutely not as utilitarian as two infantry units scouting, but Boyz are obsec and the can trade positive.

If that unit was somehow 20 points cheaper did it massively change your game or your list? Not likely. The math-hammer assessment gets nicer, but the unit still does what it does.
If points go to 7 then does someone having an extra Mek Gun in their list suddenly make people think Boyz are viable?

It's like people trade in these absolute terms and if they can't absolutely spam a unit then it must be trash. Once it crosses the tiny threshold it can totally transform. That doesn't make sense to me.

are transports, in a general sense, actually worth it in a list that has pretensions of taking consistent top-16s at majors

It really depends on several factors. I see enough people unload the transport and simply leave it in place treating it like it's done a job and is now worthless. In Stacraft Majors the people who did well were the ones who tried to keep units alive and used them to their fullest. This isn't really very different. Should GK take transports? Hell no. They have cover tide and teleporting. Should non-Duplicity TS take them? Sure, unless you're comfortable warp timing one unit at a time.

Transports aren't a magic bullet. They're a tool like anything else. Either you use them to their fullest or you don't. The latter doesn't generally help.

Can you make top 16 at a major? One TS player did a couple times at the very least by using rhinos to launch flamer rubrics. We'll see if something similar can happen again.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

What are you letting Ork Boyz charge that they're doing 'painful' damage to? Space Wolves have some tough units and enough screens that any unit of Boyz should only hit what you let them hit.

Wait, what? Are screens a thing again? Do you have to shoot the closest unit?

Breton wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

What are you letting Ork Boyz charge that they're doing 'painful' damage to? Space Wolves have some tough units and enough screens that any unit of Boyz should only hit what you let them hit.

Wait, what? Are screens a thing again? Do you have to shoot the closest unit?

I highlighted some key points you might have missed.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
It guess it depends within the contest of the armies. VS orks so much of my wound rolls wound on 5 and 6. It is a huge bummer. And the Ork boy performs different jobs in his army then kroot do in the Tau army. In particular the 10 man ork unit is very unpleasant to get charged by. You can say what ever you want about boys, but when they charge it is very painful.

What are you letting Ork Boyz charge that they're doing 'painful' damage to? Space Wolves have some tough units and enough screens that any unit of Boyz should only hit what you let them hit.

Wait, what? Are screens a thing again? Do you have to shoot the closest unit?

I highlighted some key points you might have missed.

Ahh, I thought you meant general screens, I didn't realize (charge) screens was what you meant. I started to wonder if I missed something else in the 9th book.

Spoletta wrote:
I think that everyone here is missing one huge detail about this comparison.

Kroots don't get Sept bonuses.
Boyz do.

You don't compare a Kroot to a Boy.
You compare a Kroot to a Goff Boy.

You compare a kroot to a 5 ppm grot...


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Anywayz, that's an odd comparison. No doubt a lot of stuff in the game will be better than ork boyz. Boyz are at their lowest point in ork history atm.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Those units cost more, swing less, and are limited by Ro3.

See, this is where you are wrong. They don't cost more because you get more for your points. They don't swing less because they have stratagems, wargear and synergies which boyz do not. They aren't limited because you will run out of points before you run out of units to field which are better than boyz.

I'm not advocating for replacement of all other units to the exclusion of Boyz. And I'm not saying Boyz are better than those units.

If boyz aren't better, why should you run them in the first place? There is zero need to bring them.

Spoiler:

I use Unit Crunch, which essentially rolls dice so things like D3 damage gets rolled instead of averaged. I guess we can use AotF Wracks, Emperor's Chosen Saggitarum ( popular pick, but no benefits ), and some marines ( GK ).

Manz v Boyz

Wracks
[spoiler]

Saggitarum

Spoiler:

Marines

Spoiler:

These show Boyz are on par or better than MANZ in melee against stuff they want to face. Boyz could actually get through Wracks -- MANZ will be tied up for the rest of the game. MANZ can catch a clear edge against W3 stuff with their 2CP strat.

Obviously Boyz are soft. MANZ are also soft when they get hit by Dark Lances. Boyz take better advantage of Waaagh as a force multiplier. I do wish they had some useful ( but not overbearing strats ) and that spells were easier to get onto them.[/spoiler]

Sorry, but all that is exactly the worthless armchair general garbage I was talking about. It doesn't account for actual tactics on the board, units not being in the right place, terrain interfering with charge moves, best or worse case scenarios. Heck, it doesn't even account for the enemy charging you first, firing overwatch or pulling a counter-attack. It just teleports 10 boyz in perfect striking position during the first round of your Waaagh! to a target and somehow has them all in pristine condition within engagement range. That's not how games are.

On top of that, the only thing your graphs really shows is that MANz are just as good at killing even boyz' preferred targets under perfect conditions, which enforces my point that you shouldn't ever bring boyz when you could bring MANz instead. MANz are more flexible at what they can kill, more durable and rely less on the Waaagh!.

A decent unit has to function even when stars don't align, and that simply is not the case for boyz.

You don't need to charge after Jump if you can get good sight blocking. You just need to be in a good position to go next turn and honestly I'd do 20 Boyz instead of 30.

The next time you play a game and go second, try placing 20 32mm bases out of sight of your enemy. Just for fun.

Negatory. My primary play partner is Orks. When I get some time I'll put the list on TTS and give it a go against someone.

"I play against orks" is pretty much the worst qualification for understanding how orks work. Observating and drawing conclusions is not the same as understanding how things work.
But if you do play that game, make sure to make a video or a battle report. I'd totally would offer to play that game with you, but I'm afraid my schedule currently doesn't allow that


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 Canadian 5th wrote:
I gave you all of that. Take the ITC setup he just won and sub your forces in for Matt's. You're going first, how do you play the game out? Does your list even have a prayer of making it a close game?

I ask this because I don't feel like you're building or playing optimized lists against opponents who want to beat you. You seem to be playing games on tables with a larger than average level of terrain, with lists that aren't optimized, against players who don't treat the game seriously. Your meta cannot be used as a measuring stick because it doesn't produce enough data and doesn't feature the kinds of outlier lists that cause balance concerns in the first place.

You don't need to pull the competitive card though. My primary way of playing these days is 50PL crusade games and boyz still suck

I think people playing against decent ork players often mistake player skill for army strength. Boyz applied in the right moment to the right part of the game do pack a punch and feel scary to play against. What opponents don't see is the work it takes to get them there as well as the 9 other times out of 10 they just blow them off the table without any afterthought.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Kroot will only be better than Boyz once they can take a hidden leader in their unit that has access to a power fist. The novelty of Boys is that they are a meat shield for something that CAN cause pain. A single Nob with ablative wounds can mess up a marine unit pretty good if it gets the charge.

3 attacks
3/2 hits
15/12 or 5/4 wounds
25/24 failed saves

That's, uh... One dead Marine from the Nob with a Klaw.

Which isn't horrible for a 19 point model. 22 boys with a claw is still a couple points cheaper than 10 intercessors with a fist. If the boys charge they kill 6.3 intercessors. If the intercessors charge they kill 8 boys. Looks like the Boyz are better in melee, but I will admit the intercessors are still useful when shooting.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If that unit was somehow 20 points cheaper did it massively change your game or your list? Not likely. The math-hammer assessment gets nicer, but the unit still does what it does.
If points go to 7 then does someone having an extra Mek Gun in their list suddenly make people think Boyz are viable?

It's like people trade in these absolute terms and if they can't absolutely spam a unit then it must be trash. Once it crosses the tiny threshold it can totally transform. That doesn't make sense to me.

I tend to agree and disagree with this at the same time.
I mean yes - its common online to always jump to a meme spam build which usually isn't effective precisely because its one-dimensional. It is sort of academic to go "how low would Boyz (or anything else) have to be until they just run over everything or you always max them out".

But equally if you want to Green Tide again that's sort of what you have to do. If Boyz went down to 7 points, and you wanted to run at least 90 of them, that's 180 points to spend elsewhere. Or another unit of 25~ boyz. Which is a lot.

The tipping point I think is often "I can run this and get an extra Mek gun". Because as you say - everything performs as it did before - but now you have another unit. Which can hold a position on a board and therefore do some damage, take some shooting, screen a charge, secure an objective - ultimately, increase your chance to win games.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Which isn't horrible for a 19 point model. 22 boys with a claw is still a couple points cheaper than 10 intercessors with a fist. If the boys charge they kill 6.3 intercessors. If the intercessors charge they kill 8 boys. Looks like the Boyz are better in melee, but I will admit the intercessors are still useful when shooting.

I don't think there is a scenario where you will have a squad of 22 Boyz make it into melee. In the unlikely case that you do somehow make it, they will likely not have all 22 in range to attack.

Tyel wrote:
But equally if you want to Green Tide again that's sort of what you have to do. If Boyz went down to 7 points, and you wanted to run at least 90 of them, that's 180 points to spend elsewhere. Or another unit of 25~ boyz. Which is a lot.

Personally...I don't want Green Tide back. I think the stratagem should come back with Boyz at their current price and I imagine GW will make some AoR in some stupid DLC book for it.

The tipping point I think is often "I can run this and get an extra Mek gun". Because as you say - everything performs as it did before - but now you have another unit. Which can hold a position on a board and therefore do some damage, take some shooting, screen a charge, secure an objective - ultimately, increase your chance to win games.

Fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

Sorry, but all that is exactly the worthless armchair general garbage I was talking about. It doesn't account for actual tactics on the board, units not being in the right place, terrain interfering with charge moves, best or worse case scenarios. Heck, it doesn't even account for the enemy charging you first, firing overwatch or pulling a counter-attack. It just teleports 10 boyz in perfect striking position during the first round of your Waaagh! to a target and somehow has them all in pristine condition within engagement range. That's not how games are.

On top of that, the only thing your graphs really shows is that MANz are just as good at killing even boyz' preferred targets under perfect conditions, which enforces my point that you shouldn't ever bring boyz when you could bring MANz instead. MANz are more flexible at what they can kill, more durable and rely less on the Waaagh!.

A decent unit has to function even when stars don't align, and that simply is not the case for boyz.

We kind have to be armchair generals on a forum. There's no way I could sit and elaborate on every potential scenario. It's the same thing with the transport stuff. It requires certain conditions, awareness, and opportunity for it to come together.

As for MANZ - those graphs only scratch the surface. The point of Boyz is that they take force multipliers on considerably more quickly. To illustrate:

Both units are under the same effect. Boyz just benefit more. They get huge mileage out of +1S. Now pop 5+ explodes and you'd get an effect that would benefit Boyz three times as much.


This, of course, can create bad internal balance for Boyz if Goffs are the only ones that stand out.

The next time you play a game and go second, try placing 20 32mm bases out of sight of your enemy. Just for fun.

It's doable, but perhaps 16 or so would be the easiest. The types of terrain matters, but it's important to remember that stepping into obscuring turns it off by model so it depends how fast enemy units are if they wanted to come forward and risk it.

"I play against orks" is pretty much the worst qualification for understanding how orks work. Observating and drawing conclusions is not the same as understanding how things work.

I play Orks, too. I just don't take them out as often since they're not battle ready.

But if you do play that game, make sure to make a video or a battle report. I'd totally would offer to play that game with you, but I'm afraid my schedule currently doesn't allow that

Can do. Though I need to steal a video card from my other PC. New rig has been running on CPU graphics for too long.

The biggest issue I have with most of your diagrams is that they're not realistically placed terrain. Maneuvering Baneblades or knights on that terrain (assuming you're using Ruins for obscuring) would be literally impossible.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The biggest issue I have with most of your diagrams is that they're not realistically placed terrain. Maneuvering Baneblades or knights on that terrain (assuming you're using Ruins for obscuring) would be literally impossible.

Isn't that one of the Official(tm)(tm) Terrain Placement Setups?

With how easy and popular Tabletop Simulator is right now, people who currently are claiming in this thread that Ork Boyz are still useful in any capacity in large numbers really should put their money where their mouth is and actually put in some games online as Orks against competent players and see how quickly an Ork list with large Ork boyz squads crumble after being put through the ringer that is the 9th ed death valley. Not only are large Ork Boyz squads slow and unwieldy, but as stated numerous times above, it's not cost-efficient, they don't do a lot of damage and their resilience is lacklustre in the face of enemy units with 1+ or 0+ save units in cover, often with 4+ invuln saves.

Oh, now there’s an idea. Ork boys mobs 10 or less move 5”, mob size 11-20 move 6”, 21-30 move 7”