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 Grey Templar wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I like to think that Catachan's inhospitably is deliberately overstated by its inhabitants and the Imperium itself. This serves 2 purposes. It is a moral boost for humans to survive in such an inhospitable place so they use that to its full advantage. It also serves as a tongue in cheek distraction from the real suffering on the planet.

Its kinda like how everybody jokes about how nasty it is to live in Australia, where everything is trying to kill you. Even the Aussies themselves joke about it. Its not actually as bad as the memes and jokes say, but there is a grain of truth to it.

Soooo, basically Catachan is the meme'd up Australia of the Imperium. Its nasty flora and fauna are used for levity and humor, though this doesn't take away from the fact that it is still quite deadly.

The planet is a deathworld that results in some of the toughest guardsman, and the few examples of flora and fauna we know of are pretty horrific and mean the population lives in heavily fortified cities, I don't think the idea of it just being exaggerated makes much sense considering those.

I don't mean that it is 100% exaggerated and made up. I mean that its maybe 10-20% exaggerated above what it actually is. Its still quite nasty, but everybody hypes it up beyond what it actually is.

Its kinda like a guy catching and wrangling what he claims to have been a 30 ft anaconda when in reality it was 25 ft. Yes, he exaggerated, but it was still an effing huge snake. That's Catachan. Its exaggerated, but its still really really effing dangerous.

I don't see how that could apply to Catachan based on what we've been told. The majority of the fauna and flora we've seen - at least 20 different things - from Catachan has been very dangerous stuff or just horrific, if those are something that's somewhat exaggerated a bit then that makes them...what, exactly? Something like the range of the Barking Toad, sure, perhaps that could be portrayed as higher than it actually is, but you can't really exaggerate something like the Catachan Brainleaf, Spiker, Vein Worms etc and have them still do the thing it's said they do but it's not really that bad.

 Gert wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
They can't. That's not something that's actually part of the lore, that's a heavily exaggerated meme that takes their abilities to an absurd hyperbolic level far beyond what they can actually do, and even then what the lore does say about things isn't definite with what's actually going on.

*Ahem*

Omophagea
Phase 8: This implant, also called "the Remembrancer", allows a Space Marine to 'learn by eating'. It is situated in the spinal cord but is actually part of the brain. Four nerve bundles are implanted connecting the spine and the stomach wall. Able to 'read' or absorb genetic material consumed by the marine, the omophagea transmits the gained information to the Marine's brain as a set of memories or experiences. It is the presence of this organ which has led to the various flesh-eating and blood-drinking rituals for which the Astartes are famous, as well as giving names to chapters such as the Blood Drinkers and Flesh Tearers. Over time, mutations in this implant have given some chapters unnatural craving for blood or flesh.

When Sgt Learchus consumes part of a T'au Pathfinders brain in order to discover their base on Pavonis, he learns how to use Markerlights and gains certain codes to get past the perimeter defences. He then has to spend a length of time with the Chaplains to ensure he wasn't tainted by the Xenos.

I'd mis-quoted the wrong part, was only referring to the section about the Orks.

My biggest gripe with Catachan is that they had to add in the lore about it being so deadly because of Tyranid spores landing there.

It's like it's not possible for any other deadly life to develop anywhere in the galaxy that isn't related to Nids. Genestealers? Nid scouting force. Kraken beast that Russ fought on Fenris? Rumoured to be some sort of Tyranid beast, even though the timelines don't line up. It just feels like a complete failure of imagination.

 Pacific wrote:
My biggest gripe with Catachan is that they had to add in the lore about it being so deadly because of Tyranid spores landing there.

Sorry, where is this said? It feels like you're taking the theory that Catachan Devils are a breed of Tyranid and applying it to the whole planet. Catachan has always been deadly back to when it was colonised, which is apparently further back than Imperial records know which potentially means Golden/Dark Age.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I like to think that Catachan's inhospitably is deliberately overstated by its inhabitants and the Imperium itself. This serves 2 purposes. It is a moral boost for humans to survive in such an inhospitable place so they use that to its full advantage. It also serves as a tongue in cheek distraction from the real suffering on the planet.

Its kinda like how everybody jokes about how nasty it is to live in Australia, where everything is trying to kill you. Even the Aussies themselves joke about it. Its not actually as bad as the memes and jokes say, but there is a grain of truth to it.

Soooo, basically Catachan is the meme'd up Australia of the Imperium. Its nasty flora and fauna are used for levity and humor, though this doesn't take away from the fact that it is still quite deadly.

Most of the details about life on Catachan are anecdotes conveyed by Catachans, too, in true 'you think you had it tough? where I grew up (etc)' fashion. It's classic military bullshittery; not to be taken 100% literally.

It's also simultaneously possible for the planet to be very deadly and also for that danger to be mitigated. There are venomous snakes all across the world, but if you're living in a major city you generally don't have to worry about them. Guinea worms (don't look it up) cause excruciating suffering if you drink contaminated water, but they've been largely eradicated through filtration systems. We know inhabitants of Catachan live in essentially fortresses so it's possible for life to be reasonably normal within that environment.

At the very least, the soundbite about only a quarter of Catachans surviving to adulthood necessitates every Catachan woman bearing an average of eight kids just to maintain the population, so... chalk it up to in-universe propaganda, or Catachans exaggerating for theatrics, or just a setting being written to be over-the-top ludicrous and expecting you not to take it too seriously.

 catbarf wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I like to think that Catachan's inhospitably is deliberately overstated by its inhabitants and the Imperium itself. This serves 2 purposes. It is a moral boost for humans to survive in such an inhospitable place so they use that to its full advantage. It also serves as a tongue in cheek distraction from the real suffering on the planet.

Its kinda like how everybody jokes about how nasty it is to live in Australia, where everything is trying to kill you. Even the Aussies themselves joke about it. Its not actually as bad as the memes and jokes say, but there is a grain of truth to it.

Soooo, basically Catachan is the meme'd up Australia of the Imperium. Its nasty flora and fauna are used for levity and humor, though this doesn't take away from the fact that it is still quite deadly.

Most of the details about life on Catachan are anecdotes conveyed by Catachans, too, in true 'you think you had it tough? where I grew up (etc)' fashion.

I like the Catachan Facehugger. Eats faces, likes moist warm places. Looks like a facecloth

They say Sly Marbo's tears could restore the emperor to life. Too bad he's never cried.

Jesus can walk on water, but Sly Marbo can swim through concrete.

If you are questioning the legitimacy of the Catachan Lore, I think you need to go outside and touch some grass. Nothing in this game is real, it's a mockery of the worst parts of reality.

Catachans are a close mockery of the US GIs in the Veitnam War. Go watch Platoon and study Tom Berenger's character, Barnes. Or Animal Mother from Full Metal Jacket. Or Robert Duvall's Character from Apocalypse now, actually ANY character from that movie. Or ANY RAMBO MOVIE. It's the pervasive trope that a man in War is simply put, his most "manly" aspect.

"BARNES BEEN SHOT 9 TIMES! 9 TIMES MAN! BARNES AINT MEANT TO DIE!"

"I LOVE THE SMELL OF NAPALM IN THE MORNING. IT SMELLS LIKE, VICTORY."

"Today... is Christmas! There will be a magic show at zero-nine-thirty! Chaplain Charlie will tell you about how the free world will conquer Communism with the aid of God and a few Marines! God has a hard-on for Marines because we kill everything we see! He plays His games, we play ours! To show our appreciation for so much power, we keep heaven packed with fresh souls! God was here before the Marine Corps! So you can give your heart to Jesus, but your ass belongs to the Corps! Do you ladies understand?"

You forgot to mention they all look like extras from the specops group in Predator, rated M for manly! (see 1d4 chan)

 Gert wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
My biggest gripe with Catachan is that they had to add in the lore about it being so deadly because of Tyranid spores landing there.

Sorry, where is this said? It feels like you're taking the theory that Catachan Devils are a breed of Tyranid and applying it to the whole planet. Catachan has always been deadly back to when it was colonised, which is apparently further back than Imperial records know which potentially means Golden/Dark Age.

I will have to find the reference, it was a comment on how the whole world was so deadly (rather than just the Catachan Devil).

The timelines for the Tyranids arrival are now all over the place; as you have a young Russ fighting some kind of Kracken beast on Fenris, yet the line now in the Horus Heresy series about the enabled device (I forget the name) causing such a powerful signal that the Hive Mind noticed it in a neighbouring galaxy. I suppose you could explain it by saying that the Hive sends out spores/exploration organisms beyond its own boundaries to search for other life forms.

Incidentally, I learned an interesting titbit the other day about how Genestealers came to be combined as part of the Tyranids, as they weren't originally. Apparently head office had remarked that there were too many factions and some needed trimming. The Genestealers were due to the chop as they hadn't been updated for some time and had no current model range (Space Hulk had been out of print for some time by then). Rather than 'squatting' them Andy Chambers asked that they be included in with Tyranids as part of their hive fleet, functioning as a kind of scouting and weakening mechanism for the approaching hive fleets. So, there we go, I wasn't a big fan of this change in the lore (as again it was narrowing the scope of imagination) but it sounds like we are lucky to still have them at all!

The Kraken thing is a theory from the Wolves 5th Ed book and there is a big egg in the Fang that is believed to be from a Kraken with some Magos Biologis believing it is instead Tyranid in nature. It's all very vague which is kind of the idea.
The Catachan Devils being Nids is on Lex but doesn't have a source and the text specifically calls it a rumour.

The role models for the Catachans are not common US GIs fighting in ´Nam but 80s action stars with above-average physiques like John Rambo and the cast of Predator. So why aren´t they wearing proper military attire? It would defeat the purpose of showing off their chiseled bodies.

Moriarty wrote:
OK. Two points. First, what has 40k to do with logic and reason? Suspension of disbelief, maybe, but there is nothing logical or reasonable about it. Second, Australia? The number of things out there that, if not trying to kill you, are just having a day off, is remarkable. Thirdly (this is a bonus freebie), don’t sweat the big stuff. If the cannon says Catachans are the ultimate survivors, then hoorah! Don’t like it? We have billions of other worlds to chose from!

Well said, I can enjoy some logic applied to 40K but it's meant to be a fun way to relax with your friends after a hard day as well as a very rich backstory/lore to each of the factions in the game so as you have said Moriarty there are nearly literally endless worlds to chose from when forming a Guard regiment and the over the top/fantastic backgrounds that act as the seed for something new and interesting in the game it'self..

As an Australian, I can confirm that a Catachan wouldn't last a week here. In fact, just last week I went down the outdoor stairs at 10pm and ran straight into a man-sized spiderweb that had appeared across the base of the stairs sometime in the hour since I last used them. Cue frantic dance in near-pitch darkness to brush off the unseen ambusher before it could finish the job.

(There's a running joke that North Americans are terrified of visiting Australia because of all the tiny things that can kill you, while we Aussies are terrified of visiting North America because of all the huge things that can kill you. Can't squash a bear with your shoe. Combine the two with the Amazon jungle and hey presto, Catachan!)

 Gert wrote:
The Kraken thing is a theory from the Wolves 5th Ed book and there is a big egg in the Fang that is believed to be from a Kraken with some Magos Biologis believing it is instead Tyranid in nature. It's all very vague which is kind of the idea.
The Catachan Devils being Nids is on Lex but doesn't have a source and the text specifically calls it a rumour.

Both of these things were originally mentioned in the 'Forgotten Fleets' section of the 4th ed Tyranid codex by Phil Kelly, I believe (with a nifty sketch of a Catachan Devil). Good book. The last appearance of the True-Blue Andy Chambers Tyranids (TM), before their background went wonky in 5th edition.

As for the 'muscle-bound' Catachans coming from a 'heavy-gravity' planet, I'm pretty sure this bit of fluff was added as a retcon in the 3rd ed Imperial Guard codex to explain why the then-new plastic Catachans were so bulky-looking (which arguably had more to do with the limitations of plastic kits and/or just mediocre sculpting work at the time). The older 2nd ed metal Catachan Jungle Fighters had much more realistic proportions.

As well as Harry Harrison's Deathworld, there's probably a smidge of Brian Aldiss's Hothouse (aka The Long Afternoon of Earth) in the literary inspiration for Catachan. You know, the one about the far-future Earth overrun by carnivorous plants, giant wasps and vegetable spiders that go to the moon. Sounds like home.

I loved my time Spent in Australia, but I swear to Col Sanders, I'd rather meet a pissed off bear in the Alaskan woods, then wake up piss my sleeping bag because I found a large Tai-panish bitey tube sleeping under it.

Aye. Bears will leave you alone unless you deserve it. Wolves will run away. Rattlesnakes politely announce their irritation and allow you to leave.

I always find it funny when other countries relate how dangerous it is to live in Australia. But yes it can be related to Catachan from a fauna perspective (if not in a city):

- Yes we are surrounded by the most dangerous see creatures (Sharks, irirangi jellyfish etc etc, depends on area).
- Yes we have the most venomous snakes (if you leave them alone they will leave you alone, unless walk on them or maybe king browns etc, they will chase you, depends on season).
- Yes we have a lot of poisonous spiders. Most only make you sick, like red backs etc (I have been bitten many times, I grew up in the bush), some spiders like 'wolf spiders' are not that poisonous but if they bite you they can leave a bacteria that eats away at your flesh for years (had a mate this happened too, took 3 years or so for it to stop weeping). If you live in Sydney or surrounding area then yes they have a deadly one, but has been years since someone died.
- We also have birds that can be dangerous (cassowaries etc, but treat them the same as snakes and don't go near them or their nests etc).
- The sun in Australia can be a killer if not smart.
- Most plants in Australia are just as toxic as other countries.

For international people:
- We have drop bears, that anytime you walk in the bush they could possibly be there (they live in most trees) and will drop down and try to eat your eyes.
- We have hoop snakes, that travel along the road at high speeds (they bite/grip their tail to make a hoop) and will bite anyone that has their arm out the window of their vehicle or are on the side of the road (you can hear them coming by the "hoop, hoop, hoop" sound they make when coming).

To the topic:

All lore constantly changes and gets re-written, depends on writer they commissioned and how much research they do or what GW wants them to promote and the era it was written in. Obviously Catachan are based off Rambo's (Sly movies) combined with Predator/Commando (Arnie movie).

I had a massive Catachan army in the late 90's early 2000's and if I remember is totally based off infantry, demo charges and booby traps etc (still have a large contingent but sold a lot since then), Excerpt from Codex Catachan 2000: "Visually, a Deathworld Veterans army is great for players who like a hard-bitten elite force made up of rugged individuals. With no tanks or complex uniforms to worry about...etc etc."
Yet now days the trait, yes buff infantry but is more about re-rolls for tanks etc... Exemplifying everything changes with time and the lore will change the same.

Well people still live in Chicago, so...

 Hairesy wrote:
Well people still live in Chicago, so...

When I said Aussies are scared of North America because of all the huge things that can kill you, I wasn't only referring to bears.

Zenithfleet wrote:

 Hairesy wrote:
Well people still live in Chicago, so...

When I said Aussies are scared of North America because of all the huge things that can kill you, I wasn't only referring to bears.

They have Lions and 49ers too.

For me, it's less a matter of not believing that people could survive and more not believing that such an ecosystem is possible to begin with.

Actually the idea of an alien ecosystem that's inherently hostile to human life is more believable than one which isn't. The idea that everything can kill you or poison you or otherwise be really nasty is pretty sensible when you consider humanity didn't evolve on that world.

Those elements that did clearly are in balance with each other.

There's also the possibility of a terraforming malfunction, flora and fauna interbreeding to create new lifeforms, ecological disaster, vermin transported from off-world, exotic pets transported from off-world, etc.

 Overread wrote:
Actually the idea of an alien ecosystem that's inherently hostile to human life is more believable than one which isn't. The idea that everything can kill you or poison you or otherwise be really nasty is pretty sensible when you consider humanity didn't evolve on that world.

Those elements that did clearly are in balance with each other.

It's probably just a coin toss.

Either a human will be easily able to handle the alien world's microbes OR you have war of the worlds where you get punked by alien bacteria.