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I could be playing Epic right now if I wanted, but I want MODERN, OFFICIAL GW MODELS. I don't have a 3D printer and dont like the look of most 3rd party minis.

What I liked most about owning an Epic army (used to have IG / SW soup army with Titans) is that I can easily fit a whole army on to a single shelf. The footprint a large 40K army takes even in storage is kind of bonkers.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
AT may well be staying walkers only. But that doesn't prevent them releasing an adjacent Epic game.

And that new Epic game will come along with no Titans? Or Titans in another scale so that you can´t use Titanicus models? Nah, GW won´t touch Epic with a ten yards pole. The best you can do is download old Epic rules and go to third party manufacturers for models.

Could well be the same scale and use the same titan miniatures.

Necromunda uses the same minis as 40k, as does Killteam. When Aeronautica came out they talked about how the new scale was the same as Titanicus - that wouldn't have been an accident.

 tauist wrote:
I could be playing Epic right now if I wanted, but I want MODERN, OFFICIAL GW MODELS. I don't have a 3D printer and dont like the look of most 3rd party minis.

What I liked most about owning an Epic army (used to have IG / SW soup army with Titans) is that I can easily fit a whole army on to a single shelf. The footprint a large 40K army takes even in storage is kind of bonkers.

Out of interest, do you mind me asking what you don't like about some of the 3D prints and Vanguard miniatures? It will be interesting how much of a difference there is between an official line and some of the prints, especially as really they will be based off the same concepts and designs.

I think its quite a shame for anyone entirely dependent on an official line of miniatures being released, especially as we don't know for sure if that will happen (and how limited it will be), and there is therefore a possibility that you might not ever get to play Epic again!

* I am quite used to living in the gutter in miniature terms (playing 'dead' games etc.) so find it hard to comprehend people that can only buy new and shrink-wrapped GW, but I know there are a lot of gamers in that boat!

 tauist wrote:
Epic rerelease rumours are basically what I'm living for ATM. I feel like an updated version of epic, with current plastic kit making technology being what it is, would be glorious.

I feel the same way. Epic is the way to play the truly huuuuge battles and I'd be thrilled if it came back!

Grail Seeker wrote:
Epic seems likely as smaller scale Warhammer is really having a renaissance with 3d printing and I am sure GW wants their slice.


if The Old World does well, I imagine official support for Mordheim will be likely.

Given that the first teaser for the Old World showed the Empire at the time of the 3 Emperors when Mordheim was current, It would be weird not to do something with it in some capacity.

I would say I'd love to see Epic redone, or more importantly Mordheim, but I fear that like most things GW will bollocks it up as only they can. Really they ought to just reprint the old rules and give us cool new models, but even then you can get just as good or better from independent makers. I still have my pdf of Mordeim and honestly so long as everyone agrees not to take 16 naked Skaven with slings, it's fine. Part of the fun is getting things to the "it's broken" level because then you go alright well that Warband is rich and can retire and you start the whole crazy process over again. And to be honest, I've never had anyone survive that long anyway. Last time I had a campaign going all my levelled up guys kept dying to really inane things and I never got to the point where my Warband was too powerful. Was still fun as hell!

And to be quite frank, GW for me has moved into the periphery of relevance. I still play their games and collect their models, but I very rarely, if ever, support them with my money. I buy second hand and look to older editions and rulesets for my wargaming needs now.

 Pacific wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I could be playing Epic right now if I wanted, but I want MODERN, OFFICIAL GW MODELS. I don't have a 3D printer and dont like the look of most 3rd party minis.

What I liked most about owning an Epic army (used to have IG / SW soup army with Titans) is that I can easily fit a whole army on to a single shelf. The footprint a large 40K army takes even in storage is kind of bonkers.

Out of interest, do you mind me asking what you don't like about some of the 3D prints and Vanguard miniatures? It will be interesting how much of a difference there is between an official line and some of the prints, especially as really they will be based off the same concepts and designs.

...

I'm a stickler for details and if it's a GW game, I want to be playing with models which look like GW models. This means 3rd party models are almost always not cutting it for me - if they were, GW would probably have CND'd them already.

Now I have seen awesome 3D printed Epic armies, which I'd love to have, but I really don't want to get involved with 3D printing, and so far its been difficult for me to find reliable and inexpensive sellers of 3D printed epic models. I'll attach two of my faves below.

I think if GW rereleased Epic or even 6mm Horus Heresy, the models would be on this level or better. This level of quality is what I would have wanted from official Epic minis even back in the 90s.

Wow, yeah those are really cool. I'd be happy with either!

I don't mind the slightly different sculpts, I think it adds some regional, we'll call it, flavour. You are right though, there is a limit to how different things can look. For me the main issue is price, I know for a fact GW would remake Epic and they'd be just as expensive as anything else they slap their brand on.

 Hairesy wrote:
Wow, yeah those are really cool. I'd be happy with either!

I don't mind the slightly different sculpts, I think it adds some regional, we'll call it, flavour. You are right though, there is a limit to how different things can look. For me the main issue is price, I know for a fact GW would remake Epic and they'd be just as expensive as anything else they slap their brand on.

We saw this when they made Epic 40,000. They reduced the number of sprues in their force boxes, while charging the same amount. Think it was 1 or 2 sprues.

This is why Epic died, GW's greed killed it on arrival.

Edit.
Just checked. The Tyranid Swarm Box went from 9 sprues, to 5 sprues.

Don't forget GW isn't in the business of selling you sprues crammed with one-piece, hollow bottomed tanks anymore. At AT/AI scale with full detail you're looking at at least 6 panels just for a Rhino, so maaaybe 3 a sprue for 20€+

And thus why I limit my purchases for hobby stuff greatly. Long gone are the days of walking into a game shop and dropping even a hundred bucks, on anything really. I think the last time I spent any considerable amount on anything hobby related it was $60 of our play-money for a half decent paint set.

Which is a shame because GW has (almost) always had really inventive and characterful sculpts, no matter the game system. I will say I dislike how everything under the sun has to be leaping and bounding into action these days. Sometimes warriors do just stand there and look menacing. Sigh, oh well. It's nice to think about what may come, even if it's only to give the 3rd party makers something to be inspired by.

Tauist - I definitely had the same issue with finding 3D printing services until recently, but check this link. https://grimdarkterrain.com/merchants/ (this is assuming GW don't come along with their own lovely main release!)
Depending on where you are based (did you used to be Finland or am I imagining things?!) there are some different shops and services.
I ordered some prints of shanty towns and other bits from one of the UK printers and was really pleased with the result, I guess a lot of them are just literally people at home doing printing as a hobby

We saw this when they made Epic 40,000. They reduced the number of sprues in their force boxes, while charging the same amount. Think it was 1 or 2 sprues.

I'm not as sure about Epic 40,000 as I wasn't paying close attention at the time, but certainly for Armageddon the marketing for the game and also just the availability for it was quite poor. Not having a lot of the range directly available in store (you had to order direct IIRC - then it arrived in an unmarked white box) or available through retailers I think really hurt the game. If people don't know a game exists, and I think there were a lot of 40k and WHFB players that probably didn't even know of its existence, then it is immediately on to a loser.

 Pacific wrote:
Tauist - I definitely had the same issue with finding 3D printing services until recently, but check this link. https://grimdarkterrain.com/merchants/ (this is assuming GW don't come along with their own lovely main release!)
Depending on where you are based (did you used to be Finland or am I imagining things?!) there are some different shops and services.
I ordered some prints of shanty towns and other bits from one of the UK printers and was really pleased with the result, I guess a lot of them are just literally people at home doing printing as a hobby

We saw this when they made Epic 40,000. They reduced the number of sprues in their force boxes, while charging the same amount. Think it was 1 or 2 sprues.

I'm not as sure about Epic 40,000 as I wasn't paying close attention at the time, but certainly for Armageddon the marketing for the game and also just the availability for it was quite poor. Not having a lot of the range directly available in store (you had to order direct IIRC - then it arrived in an unmarked white box) or available through retailers I think really hurt the game. If people don't know a game exists, and I think there were a lot of 40k and WHFB players that probably didn't even know of its existence, then it is immediately on to a loser.

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out. Yeah, I'm located in Finland/EU, iCloud Private Relay keeps tripping up Dakka's country flagging system...?

Epic Armageddon had a very low presence at GW IIRC. Models being direct only, and the rest always tucked away under the Specialist Games section, it was really easy to dismiss it. When visiting my FLGS at the time, all you ever saw was the core rulebook, that's not a good look for a new miniatures game.

EDIT: looking at the links, there's one seller in France with an Etsy front.. but 0 items for sale? How does this work, I contact them and have to supply them with the STLs to print? And they add supports and QC the prints for you? I have collected a small collection of STLs (Including some Bob Naismith Patreon files), but I don't have any expertise on evaluating print viability of STL files..

And yet chatting away with the old Fanatic team Epic at launch sold 400% more than Warmaster total sales, they were taken aback at the popularity with near zero advertising.

Tauist - I know you can provide the STL files, but I can't help about suitability I'm afraid. Perhaps someone like Malika or Albertorius might be able to give some advice?

And yet chatting away with the old Fanatic team Epic at launch sold 400% more than Warmaster total sales, they were taken aback at the popularity with near zero advertising.

What is 400% of 7 though?

It does make you think, with a real effort behind it, how successful it might have been. Perhaps we would now be waiting for news of an Epic 7th edition in the forthcoming Adepticon previews..

The_Real_Chris wrote:
And yet chatting away with the old Fanatic team Epic at launch sold 400% more than Warmaster total sales, they were taken aback at the popularity with near zero advertising.

Warmaster is a criminally under rated game, that I think sold poorly due to it being all metal, there wasn't a single plastic kit available for the game. Epic on the other hand had a lot if plastic kits.

I think this may explain the difference in sales.

The difference is mostly due to 40k IP being a magnitude above Fantasy in player demand, nothing complicated there.

 stonehorse wrote:

Warmaster is a criminally under rated game, that I think sold poorly due to it being all metal, there wasn't a single plastic kit available for the game. Epic on the other hand had a lot if plastic kits.

I think this may explain the difference in sales.

Just the setting.

In terms of rules it is undoubtedly GWs greatest wargames rules set.

It has been ported to
Warmaster Ancients
Battle of Five Armies
Warmaster Medieval
Blitzkrieg Commander (WW2)
Cold War Commander (moderns)
Future War Commander (Sci-Fi)

I really don't see GW moving further into epic scale, because I think they lose their massive advantages over third party/3d print minis. As much as I'd love to see plastic epic sprues back on the market, and I love the idea, I think they'd need to be VERY confident in their design to do it. (And yes, I know that AT and AA are both epic scale, but they're giant machines in epic scale, so GW's tooling and design really come through).

I also kind of feel that way about Mordheim. Iconic setting, great campaign, and amazing models... but how does GW set itself? I suppose they could decide to try to take Frostgrave's corner (I mean, FG is a fantasy campaign about collecting treasure in a ruined city, with plastic multipart henchmen sprues.) OTOH, if they could tackle the various Mordheim gangs in the same way they did Necromunda... I mean... it'd be tough to not buy them.

 stonehorse wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
And yet chatting away with the old Fanatic team Epic at launch sold 400% more than Warmaster total sales, they were taken aback at the popularity with near zero advertising.

Warmaster is a criminally under rated game, that I think sold poorly due to it being all metal, there wasn't a single plastic kit available for the game. Epic on the other hand had a lot if plastic kits.

I think this may explain the difference in sales.

Agreed, but I bet Warmaster would sell better now with the easy link to the Total War games. oh well, i still prefer the 28mm scale we are getting.

 Polonius wrote:
I really don't see GW moving further into epic scale, because I think they lose their massive advantages over third party/3d print minis. As much as I'd love to see plastic epic sprues back on the market, and I love the idea, I think they'd need to be VERY confident in their design to do it. (And yes, I know that AT and AA are both epic scale, but they're giant machines in epic scale, so GW's tooling and design really come through).

I also kind of feel that way about Mordheim. Iconic setting, great campaign, and amazing models... but how does GW set itself? I suppose they could decide to try to take Frostgrave's corner (I mean, FG is a fantasy campaign about collecting treasure in a ruined city, with plastic multipart henchmen sprues.) OTOH, if they could tackle the various Mordheim gangs in the same way they did Necromunda... I mean... it'd be tough to not buy them.

Warcry is enjoying crossover appeal. Underworlds and aos models have official rules in the game. If mordheim could claw into that niche, i could see this become a relevant path for gw to pursue.

But as you noted, frostgrave has taken the lead in this genre, and done it arguably better than mordheim did. I love games like mordheim so very much, as the narrative approach trumps WAAC mass battle games always. But i have a very tough time seeing gw competing against frostgrave. They let mordheim fall by the wayside, so they have only themselves to blame for that. I know they will sell a good amount on the historical namesake alone, but if they want profit beyond initial flashpan nostalgia buyers being fomo'd, then they need to dig deep into game design A game to compete again. Frostgrave is well regarded for good reason.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Epic rerelease rumours are basically what I'm living for ATM. I feel like an updated version of epic, with current plastic kit making technology being what it is, would be glorious.

Epic release will never happen. They had the chance to do it when GW launched Titanicus but decided to give the community the good ol´ middle finger instead.

It’s not that totally beyond possible that troops couldnt be added to titanicus as an expansion at some point. It would make sense to me to let the game grow

 Knockagh wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Epic rerelease rumours are basically what I'm living for ATM. I feel like an updated version of epic, with current plastic kit making technology being what it is, would be glorious.

Epic release will never happen. They had the chance to do it when GW launched Titanicus but decided to give the community the good ol´ middle finger instead.

It’s not that totally beyond possible that troops couldnt be added to titanicus as an expansion at some point. It would make sense to me to let the game grow

Nah, Titanicus would not benefit from them as a game. Its crunchy core is about titans and their resource management, even knights start to push focus away from that and it leads to bad game design. It is absolutely better to have AT stay as the skirmish game of walking nuclear battleship rock stars of war while a combined arms Epic 6ish ed. (counting Apoc as 5th) might come along later, being properly designed for more varied forces using the same miniatures.

One other aspect that I think puts GW off making Epic again is porting over 40k now would be a herculean effort. In the time from Epic Armageddon to now 40k has expanded at a breakneck speed. Not just with the number of factions, but with the sheer glut of entries those factions contain.

Sad to say, but I think AT, and IA are GW's last venture into scales smaller then 28mm.

 stonehorse wrote:
One other aspect that I think puts GW off making Epic again is porting over 40k now would be a herculean effort. In the time from Epic Armageddon to now 40k has expanded at a breakneck speed. Not just with the number of factions, but with the sheer glut of entries those factions contain.

Sad to say, but I think AT, and IA are GW's last venture into scales smaller then 28mm.

I dunno about that. IIRC, there was a time when you could buy a plastic kit which had all the various infantry units in that single SKU. You only need one miniature to represent a certain unit, they don't need to look individual from each other.

If GW would follow the same logic, you'd only need a few plastic SKUs at most to cover a whole faction. Resin can then cover the more niche units. The total number of plastic SKUs required for Epic would be no more than what already exists for something like Necromunda.

However, GW doesn't do any models by half-measures. That's their whole appeal.
They won't do legions of copy/paste models, I can imagine each base of 5 minis would have 5 distinct sculpts.
But that no-half-measures also extends to pricing and availability. Accessibility and value is very low on their list.

If we get Epic I am pretty sure it'll start as Epic Horus Heresy - Titanicus already is and the Space Marine Aeronautica flyers fit right in as well.
This would dramatically lessen the scope of what they'd need to offer.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
However, GW doesn't do any models by half-measures. That's their whole appeal.
They won't do legions of copy/paste models, I can imagine each base of 5 minis would have 5 distinct sculpts.
But that no-half-measures also extends to pricing and availability. Accessibility and value is very low on their list.

If we get Epic I am pretty sure it'll start as Epic Horus Heresy - Titanicus already is and the Space Marine Aeronautica flyers fit right in as well.
This would dramatically lessen the scope of what they'd need to offer.

But here's a thing, one a single sprue you could probably put several types of Space Marine squads: Tactical, Close Combat, Support. That's already 30 marines. 3 Rhinos could probably be added on another sprue (they would definitely be multipart). An additional sprue could then be done to upgrade such Rhinos to various types of Predators. Whirlwinds and Vindicators could probably be another sprue. Land Raiders could be another boxed set, as well as the Sicarans, etc.

 tauist wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
One other aspect that I think puts GW off making Epic again is porting over 40k now would be a herculean effort. In the time from Epic Armageddon to now 40k has expanded at a breakneck speed. Not just with the number of factions, but with the sheer glut of entries those factions contain.

Sad to say, but I think AT, and IA are GW's last venture into scales smaller then 28mm.

I dunno about that. IIRC, there was a time when you could buy a plastic kit which had all the various infantry units in that single SKU. You only need one miniature to represent a certain unit, they don't need to look individual from each other.

If GW would follow the same logic, you'd only need a few plastic SKUs at most to cover a whole faction. Resin can then cover the more niche units. The total number of plastic SKUs required for Epic would be no more than what already exists for something like Necromunda.

However 40k has changed a lot since those days. Back in Epic 40,000 Space Marines had, Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Devastator, Bike squad, attack bike, scouts, Dreadnought, Terminator, Rhino, land speeder, razorback, land raider, predator, whirlwind, vindicator, captain, librarian, Chapter master, support weapons, and Thunderhawks. 20 choices.

The characters and infantry were all done by one plastic sprue. Simple enough... but just look at how even firstborn Marines have expanded their range since then never mine all the Primaris stuff. And also the game has gone from 6 factions. Marines, Orks, Eldar, Chaos, Tyranids, and Imperial Guard to what it is today, I have honestly lost count of the number of factions in modern 40k.

 Warptide wrote:
I missed out on the Space Hulk rerelease so I would love an update to that. BFG or Epic are more deserving, though.

That's a one off boardgame, not a specialist game.

Toofast wrote:

 Warptide wrote:
I missed out on the Space Hulk rerelease so I would love an update to that. BFG or Epic are more deserving, though.

That's a one off boardgame, not a specialist game.

Thats actually a bit debatable. Early on it was this entry game and system that incorporated a bunch of different types of minis. It basically was just an game engine that took place in corridors.

I understand how its not really that anymore because of how GW is CURRENTLY handling it, but its actually a lot more than that.
Also, Space Hulk was actually under the specialist games header for the longest time, all the way up until specialist games tanked before it was resurrected.

I know this is an "Um actually" sort of post. But it's a fair post to make in response to another "um actually" post.