Squats return! - Page 11

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**Not Online!!!**

Toofast wrote:
kodos wrote:
those people (not strange internet groups) say it was not the best idea to do it

Those people sound like they're reaching really far to look for something to be offended about.

I fear you found some of the issues ingrained in certain types of germans for historical reasons that have developped what is colloqually known as a cultural neurosis called "Verbotskultur" (culture of the prohibition) or also "Verbots-un-kultur" (the negative view of that behaviour roughly translated into Anti culture of the prohibition.).
Other interesting victims of said mentality are videogames f.e. TF 2 which in the german version was forced to replace gibs with robotic junk.

_____________________________________

Personally, if they are on large bases i fear they are a bit too tall for my tastes.
Also they are a tad too much sci-fi and too few dwarf? Basically a bit of the good old Tau problem of ye olden days.
But they certainly look like fine enough models i think, the make or break will be the pricetag i fear.

**MonkeyBallistic**

It’s laughable how, “I don’t like these minis because they remind me slightly of this ..” gets such a response. Accusations of wanting to be offended (I’m not offended) and “vomiting propaganda” are just a joke.

I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

… talk about people wanting to be offended.

**gravitywell**

Wow, this turned into a bit of a popcorn thread overnight. I was thinking of typing up my own thoughts, but another thread might be a better place for those that want to discusss?

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

I can see what you're saying here... but I don't know if it was boring for me just because it was interesting to see what they are changing. Any of the factions or models have had changes over the years, but this is one where GW (and a lot of fans) also wanted more explicit change. I guess we'll see what else they do to give them their own identity and uniqueness.

I'd love to see that model size comparison with the Necromunda Squat and an old Squat model. The old ones were really short... like their entire leg was their boot!

**Mentlegen324**

gravitywell wrote:

I can see what you're saying here... but I don't know if it was boring for me just because it was interesting to see what they are changing. Any of the factions or models have had changes over the years, but this is one where GW (and a lot of fans) also wanted more explicit change. I guess we'll see what else they do to give them their own identity and uniqueness.

Considering the Kharadron Overlords are quite an inventive unique take on the Fantasy Dwarf archetype without making them into something that clearly isn't a Fantasy Dwarf still, it would be quite odd if these do just end up without something just as much of a unique theming. The 1 miniature we've seen does come across a bit bland, but hopefully he's not indicative of their overall style.

**Altruizine**

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s laughable how, “I don’t like these minis because they remind me slightly of this ..” gets such a response. Accusations of wanting to be offended (I’m not offended) and “vomiting propaganda” are just a joke.

I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

… talk about people wanting to be offended.

I like when someone makes an actually-interesting comment like that on here, and the cranky 60 year old men form up in phalanx, grievously offended at being made to think of something that's made it past the comfort-armour of the plastic toyscape they've spent decades cladding themselves in.

I do think it's kind of premature to make your judgment based on a single model, though. And does it really matter if 40K introduces another army that appeals to the fascist aesthetic? There's no shortage of options for that already, including the omnipresent Space Marines, which deliver those vibes straight into the veins.

**Quasistellar**

Argive wrote:
But why engage with these clearly insane arguments though...

Back on topic

What stats do people expect ?

I recon T4 4+ S4 1W.

In essence mini marines of pre update. (no pun intended)

are there currently any faction that has this basic stat line since marines have been upgraded?

I actually predict the same, except for them having S3. S4 is "superhuman" strength.

**CthuluIsSpy**

S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

**MonkeyBallistic**

Altruizine wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
It’s laughable how, “I don’t like these minis because they remind me slightly of this ..” gets such a response. Accusations of wanting to be offended (I’m not offended) and “vomiting propaganda” are just a joke.

I’d thought I’d made it obvious that the reason I didn’t like then is mostly because they are cliched and boring…

… talk about people wanting to be offended.

I like when someone makes an actually-interesting comment like that on here, and the cranky 60 year old men form up in phalanx, grievously offended at being made to think of something that's made it past the comfort-armour of the plastic toyscape they've spent decades cladding themselves in.

I do think it's kind of premature to make your judgment based on a single model, though. And does it really matter if 40K introduces another army that appeals to the fascist aesthetic? There's no shortage of options for that already, including the omnipresent Space Marines, which deliver those vibes straight into the veins.

Oh I’m totally aware that this is just a gut reaction to a single mini. I hope to have my mind changed. I think the difference between the squats and the Imperium stuff, is that when the Imperium evokes fascist imagery, it tends to be the obvious, old discredited stuff. It’s clear that it’s meant to invoke the idea that the Imperium is not a nice place. However Norse runes, Wotan and talk of kin has become the new face of fascism in the last few years. That’s why, as someone that your typical fascist would have a problem with, I find it a bit disappointing that GW has gone there.

**Voss**

MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Voss wrote:
Ok, so I knew some wouldn't like the squats, but... wow.

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Mate, I would never tell someone they shouldn’t like something. I’m merely expressing my own subjective opinion about why I don’t like the new squats, just as other people have explained why they like them … and that’s fine.

I’m not for a minute saying that the new squats are intrinsically (and especially not deliberately) fascist. They just, for me, bring to mind classic fascist tropes. I just find it very disappointing, when there are so many interesting and original things that they could have done to reinvent the squats.

But if you like them, then you go ahead and like them. I’ll never tell you you’re wrong to like anything. Stop pretending that people who hold opinions different from yours are somehow trying to tell you your opinion is wrong when the only people I’ve seen doing that are the one arguing about whether miniatures are monopose or not.

This would be much, much easier to believe if you'd stopped at 'I don't like them' and not delved full on into conspiracy crap based on a single mini.
That you're trying to turn this around on others is just reinforcing that. Because you ARE now telling people their opinion is wrong, and you can't gaslight that while doing it.
Strangely folks reaching further and further to justify 'don't like it,' are in fact inviting argument. Almost... baiting it, one would say.

**Eumerin**

I'd personally prefer that historical cultural elements not be ignored or cast into the trash bin just because some individuals with objectionable views happen to like them. Whether it's Nordic runes or the color red, that's never a good thing, imo.

Getting back on topic, we've seen one figure. I like it. Others won't because there's never total agreement on anything. We know that more figures are out there because of the shadowed images in the trailer. Hopefully we'll see a few more (perhaps a full fire team) within the next week or two.

**Dysartes**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

Given the daft mechanical framework of AOS, no-one can truly say how strong or tough a model/race is, and only barely comment on how skilled or strong they are compared to another unit/race.

It would be nice for GW to break a habit of a lifetime, though, and have a Dwarf-based species be superior to the Elf-based ones...

**MonkeyBallistic**

Voss wrote:
MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Voss wrote:
Ok, so I knew some wouldn't like the squats, but... wow.

The sheer amount of nonsense some posters have decided to indulge in to convince others they shouldn't like things they don't like is just... a bit much.

Mate, I would never tell someone they shouldn’t like something. I’m merely expressing my own subjective opinion about why I don’t like the new squats, just as other people have explained why they like them … and that’s fine.

I’m not for a minute saying that the new squats are intrinsically (and especially not deliberately) fascist. They just, for me, bring to mind classic fascist tropes. I just find it very disappointing, when there are so many interesting and original things that they could have done to reinvent the squats.

But if you like them, then you go ahead and like them. I’ll never tell you you’re wrong to like anything. Stop pretending that people who hold opinions different from yours are somehow trying to tell you your opinion is wrong when the only people I’ve seen doing that are the one arguing about whether miniatures are monopose or not.

This would be much, much easier to believe if you'd stopped at 'I don't like them' and not delved full on into conspiracy crap based on a single mini.
That you're trying to turn this around on others is just reinforcing that. Because you ARE now telling people their opinion is wrong, and you can't gaslight that while doing it.
Strangely folks reaching further and further to justify 'don't like it,' are in fact inviting argument. Almost... baiting it, one would say.

I think I’m done with your histrionics mate.

**KillerAngel**

Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

**Geifer**

Dysartes wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

Given the daft mechanical framework of AOS, no-one can truly say how strong or tough a model/race is, and only barely comment on how skilled or strong they are compared to another unit/race.

It would be nice for GW to break a habit of a lifetime, though, and have a Dwarf-based species be superior to the Elf-based ones...

Comment from the sidelines but may I ask if anyone in the age of T5 Orks and W2 Marines actually believes the classic S3 T4 dwarf statline would be considered adequate by the rules designers?

It seems to me that the game has moved on and what was once thought of as hardy is little more than a joke now.

**No One Important**

We've Chris Cartered this enough and need a new set of conspiracy theories. And after seeing the size comparisons, I think we now know where to go. Cawl got the tech to make Primaris marines from squats.
In addition to their increased height, the torso armor has certain similarities to gravis armor. Or possibly they're related to Grey Knights. That could just be a high cowl or it could be a psychic hood. Possibly both.
You heard it hear first, folks. T4 base with T5 for the Gravis Minoris armor and each unit can deny once per turn at 24".

**Hankovitch**

Comment from the sidelines but may I ask if anyone in the age of T5 Orks and W2 Marines actually believes the classic S3 T4 dwarf statline would be considered adequate by the rules designers?

Both those factions are currently outclassed in every possible way by (supposedly) T3 1w armies. The current level of full-blown-cancer power creep has basically nothing to do with the statline of the "basic infantry."

Squats could be given grot statlines, and still be broken by giving them a pile of crisis suit or jetbike type units with ludicrous firepower, immunity to all basic rules, free victory points for existing, et cetera.

**Olthannon**

KillerAngel wrote:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

Actually as an archaeologist who does a lot of work on this, Anglo-Saxon is a phrase that is no longer in use, same as Dark Ages. It's the Early Medieval period. And part of the reason for that is how Anglo Saxon has become such an integral part of Neo-Nazis and their weird genetic make up obsession.

Anyway that's way off topic. So maybe let's pack that in until there's new updates from GW..

**Wha-Mu-077**

KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

So you're telling me they're British? That's even worse in the current political climate!

**KillerAngel**

Leave it to an academic to ruin a good joke...

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

So you're telling me they're British? That's even worse in the current political climate!

Even worse... English.

**Racerguy180**

KillerAngel wrote:
Leave it to an academic to ruin a good joke...

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

So you're telling me they're British? That's even worse in the current political climate!

Even worse... English.

AYNEGLISHH

**cuda1179**

Pacific wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Mind your assumptions, Grasshopper.

“Nids Ate Them” is not, and has never been, canon.

I am pretty sure there was some kind of mention, in either one of the 'Nid Codexes, or even the main rulebook itself - this might be going back 3-4 editions. I don't think it referred to the word 'Squat' specifically, but there was some sort of inference - perhaps someone with a better memory than I can fill in the blanks?

I'm pretty sure you are right. In one of the rulebooks it lists abhuman species and mentioned Squats. It said something like "presumed extinct due to Tyranid incursion".

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

**Wha-Mu-077**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Damn, now i have to paint the undersuit like it's a flannel shirt.

**gravitywell**

KillerAngel wrote:
Based on the one model they've announced, LoV will clearly retain some ties to the European Dark Age just based on the Haglaz rune (in between two fake runes) on the shoulder pad. Notice I didn't say Viking age, because Old Norse used younger futhark runes.

Spoiler:

But plot twist! It's actually the Saxon futhorc Haegl rune, and therefore no longer "racist." Anglo-Saxon Space Dwarves to the rescue!

Wow. There are a whole bunch of runes scrolling past on the left and right hand sides at the end of the teaser video if you're looking for more to analyse.

**KillerAngel**

gravitywell wrote:

Wow. There are a whole bunch of runes scrolling past on the left and right hand sides at the end of the teaser video if you're looking for more to analyse.

Nothing even close to proto-Germanic runes or their derivatives unfortunately. Personally, I get more of a "Katakana meets Stargate" vibe.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Damn, now i have to paint the undersuit like it's a flannel shirt.

Whatever you need to do to get the attention you crave.

**Plant**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things.

Bloody Dark Angel fan boys coming over here....

**DreadfullyHopeful**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

**Quasistellar**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
S3 T4 would reflect them being dwarfs, yes. That was the statline for dwarfs in WHFB. Dunno what they are in Sigmar though.

In Sigmar there's no Toughness anymore -- just wounds and save. "Tougher" units just have more wounds and lower save. Extra toughness is added via abilities like ward save and damage reduction.

For example, Gotrek, one of the most polarizing units in the game, is extremely tough, but if you just see his "stats" you wouldn't really know that. He's 8 wounds with a 4+ save. Buuuuut. . . he reduces all damage to 1 and has a 3+ ward save (and that's not to mention the damage he can do). He's manageable in game due to having 4" movement and a rule that excludes him from being able to teleport or "deep strike" him. He must start on the board and walk like a badass.

**Wha-Mu-077**

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So to folk who know my personal politics, you’ll know I’m a proper dirty lefty in pretty much all things.

But….can we possibly move away from the Pearl Clutching here?

It’s a model. It’s not a cypher for awful things. At all. If anything the hairstyle and beard makes it look like a Bloody Hipster.

Hipster-y tech bro was also the first thing I saw

"I only use independent, alternative weaponry from the times of the Dark Age, it's just so much better and more sophisticated than the more mainstream, modern Imperial technology, you wouldn't get it." Chugs craft beer