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 Kanluwen wrote:
Training and familiarity with the equipment isn't a terrible reason to think of, off the top of my head.

Why would that apply to Guard alone?

Do Marines not train with Whirlwinds, if they're gonna be piloting one?
Techmarines don't practice with Thunderfire Cannons?
I could see the argument for militia Eldar who man Support Batteries, but what about a Dark Reaper Exarch?

The question isn't "why might Guard ignore this penalty" because we can sit here all day coming up with reasons.

The question is "why might Guard alone ignore this penalty".
When, tbh, after Orks; Guard are the last faction that should be ignoring this penalty from a lore point of view.

I know exactly why they did it, it's because of balance. Guard aren't very good and rely a lot on indirect fire to compete. But we're not debating the balance PoV here so it's redundant.

I know exactly why they did it, it's because of balance.

Eh. I don't really think this solves any balance problems.

I think its just a quiet admission (without really admitting it) that the guard codex is months off, and they want people to shut up for a while. Take your 'get-you-by' garbage and like it.
I don't think they're going to get the reaction they want, as they've raised to many hackles with this particular set of handwaves.

Voss wrote:

I think its just a quiet admission (without really admitting it) that the guard codex is months off, and they want people to shut up for a while. Take your 'get-you-by' garbage and like it.

More words than I used but I think we had the same meaning

 Kanluwen wrote:
Training and familiarity with the equipment isn't a terrible reason to think of, off the top of my head.

It really is.

Of all the factions in the game, only Orks receive less training than a Guardsman.

A Space Marine has decades of training, an Eldar may have centuries, a Tyranid is literally designed for one purpose. A guardsman will receive formal training before deployment, but this is measured in months at best,

The idea that training is the secret sauce that allows a Guardsman to outperform SM or Eldar in a particular speciality is ludicrous.

Having said that, the general direction of GW in recent editions has been that lore and background is of no import when attempting to balance one more jenga block on the tower of bloated rules that 40k has become. The pseudo competitive crowd it's attracted laps it up, so I think it will continue for some time.

I think the issue with indirect fire is just that you effectively end up with 2 modes - and you need to price the unit accordingly and I suspect that's going to be very difficult.

In the old system for balance you wanted them to be somewhat inefficient in direct fire mode (because otherwise why take units without an ignore LOS ability). (This didn't happen with say Tau & Eldar and imo anyway 90 point Squigbuggies, but should have been the intention).

The danger is that now you should still want the unit to be inefficient in direct fire mode (because otherwise why not take this over any comparable shooting unit in your codex) - but with BS-1 and +1 SV, its always going to be very inefficient in indirect fire mode as well.

And if you have a unit which is just bad in both modes, then it won't see play.

I guess the question remains "how valuable is indirect fire". But say, a Squigbuggy (in Speedwaaagh) now kills 1 marine outside of LOS. What is that worth? Not 110 points - or at least not obviously.

Maybe picking on Marines is a bit unfair - due to them ignoring that point of AP as well - but I think you'd now need 270 SMS shots (without a markerlight or any other buffs) to clear out 5 Intercessors. Before these changes you needed just 60. It is a dramatic swing in relative efficiency.

(270*1/3=90 hits. 90*2/3=60 wounds. 60 into 2+ save=10 wounds.
60*1/2=30 hits. 30*2/3=20 wounds. 20 into a 4+ save=10 wounds.)

I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

Overall I am happy with the dataslate. Will be at least exciting to test the changes and see how it all feels.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

The idea behind USRs in to reduce bloat, not add.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The question isn't "why might Guard ignore this penalty" because we can sit here all day coming up with reasons.

The question is "why might Guard alone ignore this penalty".
When, tbh, after Orks; Guard are the last faction that should be ignoring this penalty from a lore point of view.

Really? Because they 100% are the first faction that should be ignoring the penalty from a lore POV.

I know exactly why they did it, it's because of balance. Guard aren't very good and rely a lot on indirect fire to compete. But we're not debating the balance PoV here so it's redundant.

They "rely a lot on indirect fire to compete" because a lot of their better boardsweeper pieces just happen to have IF baked in.

If we want to argue it from a balance POV, I've redesigned the whole mechanisms years ago. I'm not bothering to do it again.

The long and short of it is, get over it.

 kirotheavenger wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Training and familiarity with the equipment isn't a terrible reason to think of, off the top of my head.

Because Space Marines famously never train on any of their equipment.
The techmarine just rolls out of bed and starts smacking buttons on their Whirlwinds and Thunderfire Cannons to see what happens.

Footage of Space Marines aiming their Whirlwinds:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

The idea behind USRs in to reduce bloat, not add.

And yet, all they did was add bloat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SideSwipe wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Training and familiarity with the equipment isn't a terrible reason to think of, off the top of my head.

It really is.

Of all the factions in the game, only Orks receive less training than a Guardsman.

Cite a source.

Because this is just blatant fanwank.

A Space Marine has decades of training,

Decades of training, none of it truly specialized. Remember that Marines are rotated from Company to Company. The only truly specialized ones are the gents who end up being in charge of squads or the Companies themselves.

an Eldar may have centuries,

Of which, it's generalized militia training--unless they end up being stuck on a Path that specializes them.

a Tyranid is literally designed for one purpose.

And what, praytell, is an Ork?

Y'know, the species known for intuitively being able to do things?

A guardsman will receive formal training before deployment, but this is measured in months at best,

Cite. A. Source.

That training you're talking about that lasts "months at best"? That's the training specific to a warzone they're going to. Which, by the by, unless they die...they're basically doing their whole lives.

You want to say that maybe there are poorly trained Regiments? Cool. There probably are! But there's also regiments where the training level is ridiculous, starting at an exceedingly young age.

And that's not even mentioning the literally born-for-it folks or the Schola Progenium ilk.

The idea that training is the secret sauce that allows a Guardsman to outperform SM or Eldar in a particular speciality is ludicrous.

The idea that a Space Marine or Eldar is in a particular specialty at all times is far, far more ludicrous.

Having said that, the general direction of GW in recent editions has been that lore and background is of no import when attempting to balance one more jenga block on the tower of bloated rules that 40k has become. The pseudo competitive crowd it's attracted laps it up, so I think it will continue for some time.

Says the person who thinks that Orks, a race known for their intuitive nature and basically being born for one specific task, are not specialized.
Says the person who chose to use Guard, a faction known for the wide breadth of the worlds recruited from, as another example of a "poorly trained" faction.

BAH.

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

I'm amused by it, if that counts for happy.
But for bodyguard, they did it in the bad 6th edition way: the USR is just a pointer to another special rule (look out sir) and has exceptions.

For IF, its bringing the hammer down on the entire class of weapons because _specific_ weapons X, Y and Z were being spammed. Other than the tau 'whatever whatever' gun, I'm not even sure what they are. But there wasn't any reason to push whirlwinds and others even further back on the shelf. Its another over-reaction that has very little to do with the specific problem.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

The idea behind USRs in to reduce bloat, not add.

And yet, all they did was add bloat.

Very untrue. They were great until they were overused and got stupid. Use them, just don't go overboard. Moderation in all things.

USRs are the thing you set up in advance, make them scalable, and think about how they'll be applied to each faction so that you can consolidate and codify certain rules. This helps to future proof them so that, with any luck, you don't have to make many more as your game goes forward.

But GW writes books in a vacuum, with paradigm shifts (sometimes massive ones) in design ethos between groups of books, so they are simply incapable of doing this. It's why they talk up "bespoke" rules so much, as it's their fancy way of abdicating any responsibility to writing consistent rules.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely not understand the core point being made?

Hey now; it can be both!

But Kan will defend this to the hilt because it makes his precious Guard better, so he won't listen to any argument to the contrary.

I personally like "Well the guy with the tube isn't targeting someone who's hiding like an SMS, so of course the SMS will have a harder time hitting!". Wonderful stuff. Utterly nonsensical, but so much fun.

I, for one, welcome the idea that Guardsmen are better trained than Marines, but only when it comes to one specific type of weapon, and nothing else. Guardsmen who train with direct fire weapons aren't as good, but indirect is all the rage in the Scholas I hear.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

The idea behind USRs in to reduce bloat, not add.

And yet, all they did was add bloat.

Very untrue. They were great until they were overused and got stupid. Use them, just don't go overboard. Moderation in all things.

Frankly, USRs were lazy.

There's a reason why the Forge World iteration of the Hydra was a far, far, far more interesting and useful vehicle. Because it used bespoke rules to showcase how its anti-aircraft capabilities functioned, not "lol it's Skyfire bruh".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

I'm amused by it, if that counts for happy.
But for bodyguard, they did it in the bad 6th edition way: the USR is just a pointer to another special rule (look out sir) and has exceptions.

For IF, its bringing the hammer down on the entire class of weapons because _specific_ weapons X, Y and Z were being spammed. Other than the tau 'whatever whatever' gun, I'm not even sure what they are. But there wasn't any reason to push whirlwinds and others even further back on the shelf. Its another over-reaction that has very little to do with the specific problem.

Realistically, the issue isn't just that it is another over-reaction, it's that specific Indirect Fire weapons are overperforming and there is not really nuance as to what constitutes those types of weapons. Tau weren't spamming Seeker Missiles, it was the Smart Missile System(which is readily available on Broadsides, Riptides, Stormsurge, Devilfish+Hammerheads, and as a turret from a Fire Warrior team) that was a big offender alongside the Airbursting Fragmentation Projector(which is on Crisis+Commander suits, and even has a prototype systems version).


Frankly, I'd have done it as a harsher penalty for everyone involved. -1 to hit with them(and yes, that includes for Guard) when firing indirectly but also a -1 to saves for units suffering wounds from those weapons when fired without LOS.

If firing at a unit in LOS, standard rules apply. No -1 for either person.

Dudeface wrote:

Nah I just quit because it was the still turn 2 after 3 hours of playing.

To be fair here...having played against Custards and other "elite" armies...their phases take longer than my "Horde" orky army does. My shooting phase for a 150pts of Deffkoptas goes roll 6 dice, add them up (D3 for each) roll those to hit, roll those to wound, roll armor saves. Remove models. All told takes about 30 seconds at absolute most. A unit of Tau Battlesuits will roll 10D6, add those together, roll that many dice, re-roll 1s or all of them because rules, roll to wound, re-roll 1s or all because rules, apply modifiers from more rules, oops, we forgot about the marker light, etc etc etc. So yeah no, just because its a lot of dice doesn't mean its slower than the re-roll everything mechanics which are prevalent in a lot of top armies.

Dudeface wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, just structure ap like they do for orks. Most everything is ap0, some nicer stuff is ap1, anti tank is -2 or maybe 3, and your real special stuff might be -4.

Orks in particular and some of the earlier books represent the game that should have been now I think.

The ork book feels like it fits in with an 8th ed meta maybe, possibly even evoking the feel of 5th (which I consider a good thing). Sadly that's a continent or so away from the current methodology and design space. Strip the marine specific rules off marines (doctrines, armour, bolter discipline etc) and they'd be the same.

No, Orkz came out AFTER Ad-Mech and Drukhari. Orkz were a terrible book in hindsight when compared to those two armies. The hope was that this would be a toning down of the newer armies, they did make the mistake of giving orkz 1 really competitive build involving squigbuggies, but don't worry, they've nerfed them 3 times now to the point where they isn't a point in taking them anymore. But what happened after the "toning down" army came out? We got custards, Tau, Crusher Stampede, Harlequins, Eldar and now new Nidz which are looking like they might be the new hotness.

Sadly, and you think we would have learned by now, its not that the Ork codex is meant to tone down the meta, its just that GW sucks at writing ork codex's and therefore they suck.




Also, as far as durability for Marines go and how losing -1AP isn't that big a deal...lets break into some numbers. At the moment, if an idiotic ork player takes boyz, it takes 12 attacks from boyz to kill 1 Marine. That works out to 4 boyz. So 4 boyz is 12 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds and at -1AP its 2dmg and 1 dead Marine. POST Marine buff its now 18 attacks to kill 1 Marine. So now instead of 4 Orkz its 6. So now instead of 36pts of Ork boyz killing 20pts of Marine its 54pts to kill 20pts of Marine. Which in the shooting phase would be fine, but since this is the CC phase....its not good. If you have to ask why, remember, shooting phase you can usually do turn 1, and with rare exceptions CC doesn't even start until Turn 2.

In fact, a unit of bog standard Intercessors are now...again, trading equally with Orkz in the CC phase point for point. Good job GW.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

The idea behind USRs in to reduce bloat, not add.

And yet, all they did was add bloat.

Very untrue. They were great until they were overused and got stupid. Use them, just don't go overboard. Moderation in all things.

Frankly, USRs were lazy.

There's a reason why the Forge World iteration of the Hydra was a far, far, far more interesting and useful vehicle. Because it used bespoke rules to showcase how its anti-aircraft capabilities functioned, not "lol it's Skyfire bruh".

This may amaze you, but I don't advocate for a binary approach. Bespoke rules can be better for some circumstances. A mix is ideal.

But also, just because Skyfire may not have been to your liking, doesn't mean there couldn't have been a better USR in it's place.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
I would have thought people were happy with the idea that GW have effectively introduced more USR into the game.

The idea behind USRs in to reduce bloat, not add.

And yet, all they did was add bloat.

Very untrue. They were great until they were overused and got stupid. Use them, just don't go overboard. Moderation in all things.

Frankly, USRs were lazy.

There's a reason why the Forge World iteration of the Hydra was a far, far, far more interesting and useful vehicle. Because it used bespoke rules to showcase how its anti-aircraft capabilities functioned, not "lol it's Skyfire bruh".

This may amaze you, but I don't advocate for a binary approach. Bespoke rules can be better for some circumstances. A mix is ideal.

But also, just because Skyfire may not have been to your liking, doesn't mean there couldn't have been a better USR in it's place.

I see your binary and raise you a decimal version. Or in GW's case, Hexadecimal.

Not sure why people think Harlequins got slapped into oblivion. They are still good. even with the points increase, voidweavers are still hard to kill. Serious question here. Can't you still fit 9 voidweavers into a 2000 point list? Sure you have to cut some other stuff to fit that in. But you surely can right? And from what I see, 9 void weavers remain just as hard to kill now as they were before this balance slate.

BTW, I am loving armor of contempt. This buffs so much stuff its crazy.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
If you wanted mortars you'd be buying mortar heavy weapon squads, giving you a squad of 3 mortars for 50pts.

The change to indirect fire certainly isn't a buff to Imperial Guard indirect fire.
But it's a nerf to everyone else's - many of whom didn't need the nerf.
Additionally, it's a loss for game realism. Why is Atkins with a metal tube more accurate than any advanced xenos sensors with intelligent seeking ammunition?

Because Atkins with a metal tube isn't aiming for a dude trying to hide. Atkins with the metal tube is aiming for the area where the dude is hiding.

Smart-Missile Systems are actively seeking a target.

Yes, the ground....

Now why is BS4 Atkins now more accurate at hitting ground he can't see with his metal tube than my BS4 Grot with his own metal tube (aka: a Lobba, rof:d6, S5, AP0, D1)?

The way I see it the whole no-LoS-shooting issue is a product of how woefully insufficient the line of sight rules for 40k are. As long as that is not addressed there will not be an adequate solution.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Not sure why people think Harlequins got slapped into oblivion. They are still good. even with the points increase, voidweavers are still hard to kill. Serious question here. Can't you still fit 9 voidweavers into a 2000 point list? Sure you have to cut some other stuff to fit that in. But you surely can right? And from what I see, 9 void weavers remain just as hard to kill now as they were before this balance slate.

BTW, I am loving armor of contempt. This buffs so much stuff its crazy.

This.
Harlies are still a contender and armor of contempt was an excellent idea.

Harlies can adapt, I think the alternative builds are tougher to play but don't lose a lot in power.
But I'll be surprised if anyone will be complaining about them once nids hit the tabletop. They look, potentially, the most oppressive book released so far, hopefully gw will be ready to address them if they are as crazy as they look.

. feth it. Not worth it. I'll just put that clown on ignore...

Akshully, the sky is black half the time, and the blue skyers are clearly gatekeepers who don't even know the fluff of the aerial realm properly.
The real problem is that we hardly ever see red skies, so clearly they need a buff.

On the whole subject of this "Major balance update". Anyone who was stupid enough to buy a book which was already a little out of date 2 weeks after release - your book is pretty much useless now.

Welcome to the true GW scam and given all of these updates - they need to start providing digital copies for free when you buy the book AND update those digital copies.

Even better, stop selling bloody books.

Sumilidon wrote:
On the whole subject of this "Major balance update". Anyone who was stupid enough to buy a book which was already a little out of date 2 weeks after release - your book is pretty much useless now.

Welcome to the true GW scam and given all of these updates - they need to start providing digital copies for free when you buy the book AND update those digital copies.

Even better, stop selling bloody books.

Or they could just balance the books sufficiently at publication that multiple updates per year aren't 'necessary'.

The problem isn't the format of pressing ink onto bits of dead tree - it's that GW is incompetent when it comes to writing rules.

Sumilidon wrote:
On the whole subject of this "Major balance update". Anyone who was stupid enough to buy a book which was already a little out of date 2 weeks after release - your book is pretty much useless now.

Welcome to the true GW scam and given all of these updates - they need to start providing digital copies for free when you buy the book AND update those digital copies.

Even better, stop selling bloody books.

They do? Your digital rules in the app update for free. Also the fluff, artwork, crusade, most of the unit entries, wargear and relic entries don't change so printed books are hardly useless. They also doesn't run out of charge, screen lock or require you passing an expensive device to your opponent to read something.

 wuestenfux wrote:
armor of contempt was an excellent idea.

It needs to be expanded to Custodes and Sisters of Silence. I'm a bit bitter that a 28 point Heavy Intercessor is just as hard to remove, arguably harder depending on faction, than a 50 point Custodes. I'm not saying Marines aren't elite and are too good, only that they are too close to Custodes now, who have far, far fewer toys and options.