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It's a combination of two factors we know for certain, and a possible third:
1) the death threats being tossed at writers by insane people with an addiction to being online
2) wanting to avoid obvious favoritism accusations which, because the internet is a hell-scape, often feeds into the first
3) harder to demand GW pays their staff more if we don't know who they are.

That doesn't sound like a death threat. A death threat is something that goes "Because you lost of money for bets in the regionals, we are going to break your leg" a real threat when it comes from any specific group to have been know to be violent in the past. When "Misiek" who threw a knife, that stabbed Dino Baggio in the head, durning a Wislaarma football match 23+ years ago, says he will kill you. You know he means it and you will not be suprised that he is also the head of the Sharks hooligan clan, which was so succeful from its dealing that it bought the club they were fans of.

 AdmiralRon wrote:
It's a combination of two factors we know for certain, and a possible third:
1) the death threats being tossed at writers by insane people with an addiction to being online
2) wanting to avoid obvious favoritism accusations which, because the internet is a hell-scape, often feeds into the first
3) harder to demand GW pays their staff more if we don't know who they are.

Number 3 doesn't really make much sense honestly. If you are outraged by pay it doesn't really matter WHO is getting the pay, the key aspect is what the pay is. And we had an article that did seem to show a few weeks ago that GW's pay for rules writing is potentially very low, or at least lower than many would expect. Of course this can be compounded by the fact that rules writing might be pay given to staff alongside other pay for other duties. So it might appear artificially lower because the staff are also doing other jobs and getting pay for them as well. But in general I don't really see that it had any impact beyond some chatter and the world moving on fairly quickly.

I suspect it has little to do with any of that and more about the general corporate ethos. We know from the info about how underpaid GW rules writers are that not only are they underpaid, they are also expected to develop products for the company on their own time as well. And that generally there is an overriding ethos that runs through the whole company that the company always comes first, second and third.

People quote the death threats as the reason the crediting stopped but really I suspect it was something GW was more than happy to do generally as it transitioned from a collection of big personalities working together in a basement to a multinational brand.

Karol wrote:
There is a difference though between someone saying I kill you and doing it, and people saying the same online and there never been an example of it ever happening.

There is a mountain of examples of threats being followed through on. Just because the person threatened doesn't actually die doesn't mean nothing happened. Sane, rational people don't make death threats over a rules book for a miniatures game. They just don't. So the person issuing the threat is demonstrably suffering some degree of mental illness, has a high degree of aggression towards the target, and lives in an age where someone's full name is often enough information to find their address.

So now this author is going about their lives, wondering if that person driving behind them the past few minutes just happens to be going the same direction or is a psychopath intending to attack them. And they don't know. Because yeah, maybe 99.9% of death threats have no follow up, but even a 0.1% chance of someone trying to harm you over a rulebook for a miniatures game is utterly abhorrent.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Alternate conspiracy theory (I have no evidence for this): We've had this leak that GW pays their writers peanuts, and if any of their writers got credited and we knew who they were they might start to develop fans, and if they complained about their salary and quit the fans might get angry.

Not to deny the seriousness of threats and harassment, Gav Thorpe and Matt Ward got a lot of hate on the boards, but I think there may be a lot to this.

I seem to remember after Andy Chambers left hearing that GW had a policy of not crediting creators lest they get too big for their breeches.

I was told that no table top game designer was ever killed for writing a book someone did not like. So the threat doesn't seem to be real, even when the 0.1% is included in to it.

I mean if it was the way you say, then people living in less fun places or near bad neighbours would go insane, because the threat is more real then threats on the internet and much higher then 1%.

Karol wrote:
I was told that no table top game designer was ever killed for writing a book someone did not like. So the threat doesn't seem to be real, even when the 0.1% is included in to it.

Then you have entirely misunderstood the reason people send death threats and also why they are serious.

Death threats are used as a form of harassment. It doesn't matter if they are acted on or not because the recipient (in this case writers) has no idea if the threat is legitimate or not and that is entirely the point.
For this specific discussion, the people we are discussing have one big thing that you and I don't have, a publicly stated place of work. These writers were working at GW HQ in Nottingham and from there all a person has to do is wait around to see if that writer leaves the building and goes home. From there they can very easily follow that person to where they live. At that point, they have the name, work address, and home address of that writer making them a credible threat to that writer. Hell, they don't even need to follow them home, they can just wait outside their place of work and attack them there. Even without that it can take a smart person no time at all to use the Internet to track where you live, where you work, where you frequently visit or who is closest to you.

As soon as the writer receives this threat they are now on alert everywhere they go. Is that car behind you following you? Is that person looking a bit too closely at you in the street? Could you walk into Warhammer World and walk straight into the person who just threatened to kill you? At that point, entirely justified paranoia sets in, and the writer can become afraid to even leave their house. THAT is the reason people send death threats, to force the recipient to lose their entire life to fear.

I mean if it was the way you say, then people living in less fun places or near bad neighbours would go insane, because the threat is more real then threats on the internet and much higher then 1%.

It is like that.
There are times when you need to stop talking and listen to people who know what they're on about/have experience. You've made it clear you live a very isolated life with no wider life experience, you would do well to listen to those who know more than you.

I'll say it again, if my project gets to the point where I'm getting death threats, I'll frame the first one.

Karol wrote:
I was told that no table top game designer was ever killed for writing a book someone did not like. So the threat doesn't seem to be real, even when the 0.1% is included in to it.

I mean if it was the way you say, then people living in less fun places or near bad neighbours would go insane, because the threat is more real then threats on the internet and much higher then 1%.

By your logic if an author is attacked, mutilated, and paralyzed but does not die, there is no threat.

As for the second point, yes, they can and do. Are you really this naive on the topic?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll say it again, if my project gets to the point where I'm getting death threats, I'll frame the first one.

Well that's nice, we'll just tell people receiving death threats to frame them and they'll be OK.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
As for the second point, yes, they can and do. Are you really this naive on the topic?

Something Karol only made clear prior to their period of absence was that they were in fact a teenager. Combine that with their life in rural Poland and ignorance doesn't seem so far-fetched. The confidence of a young person and the relatively sheltered life of someone who doesn't live in a major population centre is what we are seeing here. It would be the same if Karol was from middle of nowhere Iowa or the Orkney Islands off Scotland.

Sorry, but I remain totally unconvinced that "Matt Ward got death threats!" is the reason why GW stopped crediting their rules writers (or that it is even a valid reason to stop crediting writers).

1. They're still front and centre in White Dwarf, making no bones their identities. They put their pictures in White Dwarf, and tell you exactly who they are and what they do.
2. Somehow the Black Library is immune to this phenomena, so they get credited as normal?

I mean, Matt Ward just announced that he's on the writing team for Dark Tide. If he was endlessly afraid of the "totally serious" death threats, wouldn't he be forever in hiding, operating under a pseudonym? No. Of course not. Because death threats are like saying 'hello' on the Internet - a hollow meaningless gesture of impotent rage expressed in an idiotic manner (sound and fury, signifying nothing, if you will).

I think back to sites like Gamespot and IGN, where their reviewers would death threats for giving a game a bad review. Hell, sometimes they'd get death threats for giving a game a good review; that's how pathetic some people can be. They still put their names up there, their pictures, and continue to post reviews week after week.

So again, I'll just restate the simple truth of it:

You should credit writers/artists for their work.

This is all starting to get very "ethics in game journalism, honest guv"

Let the author choose if they want to be credited or not.

Anyways, I suspect the various books are not the sole creation of one person. Sure, someone's got to write it all down but I would hope that the results of collaboration, input and oversight from the whole design team to some degree.

 Stormonu wrote:
Let the author choose if they want to be credited or not.

That seems perfectly reasonable.

 Stormonu wrote:
Anyways, I suspect the various books are not the sole creation of one person. Sure, someone's got to write it all down but I would hope that the results of collaboration, input and oversight from the whole design team to some degree.

No doubt. Every FFG book I worked on had a team of writers, sometimes 2-3, sometimes as many as 8 or 9 for the larger books (plus the editor). Everyone had their sections to write, and we'd give feedback on what everyone else was working on.

Dai wrote:
This is all starting to get very "ethics in game journalism, honest guv"

It really isn't, so please don't go there.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
By your logic if an author is attacked, mutilated, and paralyzed but does not die, there is no threat.

As for the second point, yes, they can and do. Are you really this naive on the topic?

.

From what I understand the number of attacked, mutilated and paralyzed table top designers is also equal to zero. I spent a few hours trying to find at least one example of one getting hurt. To me this looks a bit like what TV or politicians do. Where they force laws where if you say that X should Y, you get a fine, get removed from social media and in case of politicians you also can end up in jail. And they only enforce it for their own people, so if opposition or outside companies get treated the same way, there is zero reaction and suddenly you get told about freedom of speach by a dude who sent horse police 6 weeks prior against a demonstration of mostly women. Again I understand if the industry really had problems with violance, if they were groups willing to travel and beat up, or worse, designers . I know, from sports, that when some people say that they will kill you, that the threat is extremly real. With table top games it doesn't seem to be the case. Unless there are some extremist groups in western table top gaming that have not popped out in any arguments in my history of the hobby since the start of 8th ed.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll say it again, if my project gets to the point where I'm getting death threats, I'll frame the first one.

Well that's nice, we'll just tell people receiving death threats to frame them and they'll be OK.

People are free to deal with the price of fame or notoriety however they wish, but to expect that negative attention won't occur is totally naive.

Karol wrote:
From what I understand the number of attacked, mutilated and paralyzed table top designers is also equal to zero. I spent a few hours trying to find at least one example of one getting hurt. To me this looks a bit like what TV or politicians do. Where they force laws where if you say that X should Y, you get a fine, get removed from social media and in case of politicians you also can end up in jail. And they only enforce it for their own people, so if opposition or outside companies get treated the same way, there is zero reaction and suddenly you get told about freedom of speach by a dude who sent horse police 6 weeks prior against a demonstration of mostly women. Again I understand if the industry really had problems with violance, if they were groups willing to travel and beat up, or worse, designers . I know, from sports, that when some people say that they will kill you, that the threat is extremly real. With table top games it doesn't seem to be the case. Unless there are some extremist groups in western table top gaming that have not popped out in any arguments in my history of the hobby since the start of 8th ed.

And you are still missing the point.
How about you stop and actually read some of the replies people have posted in this thread instead of assuming you know more about the subject because you go to a rough school.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll say it again, if my project gets to the point where I'm getting death threats, I'll frame the first one.

Well that's nice, we'll just tell people receiving death threats to frame them and they'll be OK.

People are free to deal with the price of fame or notoriety however they wish, but to expect that negative attention won't occur is totally naive.

I have seen this attitude before, even among people receiving such threats. But never among those who have actually been attacked. Funny, that.

It's "funny" because there's a big difference between some neckbeard sending a "death threat" on the internet and actually physically attacking someone.

I totally get writers not being listed these days. Also, I'm sure the books are written by more than one person these days anyway.

I will say, I was pretty excited getting my 4th edition chaos codex signed by Gav.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
I'll say it again, if my project gets to the point where I'm getting death threats, I'll frame the first one.

Well that's nice, we'll just tell people receiving death threats to frame them and they'll be OK.

People are free to deal with the price of fame or notoriety however they wish, but to expect that negative attention won't occur is totally naive.

I have seen this attitude before, even among people receiving such threats. But never among those who have actually been attacked. Funny, that.

Define "attacked". I've had a bunch of death threats in my time on the internet and I'm a nobody. I literally got one today because I said my first playthrough of Elden Ring was a Bleed build right up until the final boss which I had to respec for. They're nothing but comments from edgibois trying to act hard on the internet.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sorry, but I remain totally unconvinced that "Matt Ward got death threats!" is the reason why GW stopped crediting their rules writers (or that it is even a valid reason to stop crediting writers).

And to be clear, it may not be. I don't think anyone is arguing that we know for sure that was the reason, only that death threats are a serious problem and not something to just be brushed off like nothing. Even assuming this WAS the reason, no one is saying that GWs response was the best approach (I certainly don't think so).

1. They're still front and centre in White Dwarf, making no bones their identities. They put their pictures in White Dwarf, and tell you exactly who they are and what they do.
2. Somehow the Black Library is immune to this phenomena, so they get credited as normal?

There is a huge difference between 'this person writes for army books' and 'this person wrote the rules for THIS army book'. The former is unspecific so people freaking out over a certain thing can't pin their hate to a certain person.

I mean, Matt Ward just announced that he's on the writing team for Dark Tide. If he was endlessly afraid of the "totally serious" death threats, wouldn't he be forever in hiding, operating under a pseudonym? No. Of course not. Because death threats are like saying 'hello' on the Internet - a hollow meaningless gesture of impotent rage expressed in an idiotic manner (sound and fury, signifying nothing, if you will).

Maybe it is like that in Australia, but in other parts of the world that is very much not the case. Yes, the overwhelming majority of threats aren't followed through on, but some are and the people receiving them don't know if they got a 'hollow' one or a credible one. Except they aren't hollow, because the very fact that they might not be creates entirely legitimate fear, and quite often the people making the threats know that.

You should credit writers/artists for their work.

Not one person anywhere in the thread has contested that. Further, you just said above that they are credited in White Dwarf, so either this sentiment is invalid or that one is, because they are mutually exclusive.


And really, to those who feel death threats aren't a big deal, that they can just be brushed off, I call bs. Send me the screenshots of the threats you've received, then I'll buy it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Send me the screenshots of the threats you've received, then I'll buy it.

You want screenshots of my Warthunder chat logs or what?
Sorry, I haven't saved any. I laughed and moved on, didn't even bother blocking them because they weren't worth the effort.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
You want screenshots of my Warthunder chat logs or what?
Sorry, I haven't saved any. I laughed and moved on, didn't even bother blocking them because they weren't worth the effort.

The Warthunder randos didn't know your full name or place of work though, did they? That's something people keep glossing over. I would argue that makes it a pretty big deal.

Is it though? The threat's just as empty

 Gert wrote:

And you are still missing the point.
How about you stop and actually read some of the replies people have posted in this thread instead of assuming you know more about the subject because you go to a rough school.

I litterally got banned in that thread for racism in that thread, because I said that there are two mob organisations in my country, who are involved in betting, and who we are warned by our school to be warry of, if they contact you in any way. So I do know more or less know that people were writing in the last thread. What I am saying is that if you are Salman Rushdie and you get told you will be killed for your book, it has a bit different weight then someone saying the GW HQ should go up in flames for not giving Lumineth Lords cavalery bows. One is related to real danger and real threat, the other one isn't. And acting if it was, and on top of that saying that all criticism can be debunked, by saying , I got death threats, is just stupid. I would get it, if there were historically designers killed or beaten up for writing books fans didn't like . As someone before said it, this did happen to people in other industries, and as I said it is a horrible thing. But what can not act, if the impossible was possible. Specially as it seems to be used for deluding responsibility of specific game choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I have seen this attitude before, even among people receiving such threats. But never among those who have actually been attacked. Funny, that.

Okey, but if no table top game designers was ever attacked, then it is a bit like being worried that an orca or sperm whale is going to get you, while you swim in the Baltic, because at some point in the past there were reported sightings of those, and in the past both of those animals did attack humans.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Is it though? The threat's just as empty

I disagree. If I get a bunch of death threats and people know my full name and where I work, then I would be well within my rights to feel in danger. Which again is the point. It really doesn't matter if the death threats were acted on in this specific instance because we know what happened, Matt Ward stopped writing for GW and disappeared for years to the point where he popped back up again in like 2018/19 and people were surprised that he came back to GW. The people that sent those threats got rid of the person they hated for a good amount of time so the threats worked.

@Karol

what exactly is the point you're trying to make? That death threats to writers arent "real enough"? A threat is a threat, they should never be dismissed.

You don't know if the person making the threat is unhinged and will act on it or now. Add Doxxing to this and then it means the author needs to always keep an eye behind them.

Karol wrote:
I litterally got banned in that thread for racism in that thread, because I said that there are two mob organisations in my country, who are involved in betting, and who we are warned by our school to be warry of, if they contact you in any way. So I do know more or less know that people were writing in the last thread. What I am saying is that if you are Salman Rushdie and you get told you will be killed for your book, it has a bit different weight then someone saying the GW HQ should go up in flames for not giving Lumineth Lords cavalery bows. One is related to real danger and real threat, the other one isn't. And acting if it was, and on top of that saying that all criticism can be debunked, by saying , I got death threats, is just stupid. I would get it, if there were historically designers killed or beaten up for writing books fans didn't like . As someone before said it, this did happen to people in other industries, and as I said it is a horrible thing. But what can not act, if the impossible was possible. Specially as it seems to be used for deluding responsibility of specific game choices.

And yet you still aren't understanding what is being said. A death threat does not have to be acted upon to be considered a problem because it is a criminal offence to send a death threat in the first place. Death threats are used to coerce the recipient into committing acts that the sender wants and all the sender needs to do to make that threat feel real is put the slightest amount of pressure, say for example waiting for the recipient outside their publicly known place of work and take a photo of them leaving. Matt Ward got death threats and disappeared from GW and public life altogether, the threats worked. That he came back to GW after the fact shows that he has more spine than the scum who tried to get rid of him.

Okey, but if no table top game designers was ever attacked, then it is a bit like being worried that an orca or sperm whale is going to get you, while you swim in the Baltic, because at some point in the past there were reported sightings of those, and in the past both of those animals did attack humans.

There's this magical thing that people do called "fear" and it tends to not give two figs what facts or logic do.