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In a 2000pt game it would have to score/deny a net of ~20% of your VP for it to be a win. How about that?

What parts of "Rule of Cool" and "Committing to the Bit" did you misunderstand? If a unit doesn't perform in one game I'm not going to drop it. If it doesn't perform in 10 games then I'll consider it.

 Gert wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It would only ever make its points back if your opponent blocked everything up and didn’t take any anti tank to remove 6HP as it slowly rumbles towards you at 10 speed. You’d have to kill fifty marines or twenty terminators for it to be a win.

Only if you think in those terms, which neither I nor my opponents do. "Rule of Cool" and "Committing to the Bit" always win out over unit cost or tier listing.

Because it isn’t cool.

You’re talking about a battle cannon profile with 24 range. You’re going to have this huge tank killing one or two models a turn. That’s not going to sell the experience.

Unless your mates are lining their units up shoulder to shoulder to let you kill ten guys a turn (which assumes you’re in range BTW) you won’t be doing much with a normal large blast.

There’s rule of cool and there’s actively trying to throw your game by paying 425 points for what is a 150 point weapon. It’s a worse vindicator. Even in a totally casual game it’s too much and you would end up subconsciously compensating to ram it in.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because it isn’t cool.

That's entirely subjective.

You’re talking about a battle cannon profile with 24 range. You’re going to have this huge tank killing one or two models a turn. That’s not going to sell the experience.

Unless your mates are lining their units up shoulder to shoulder to let you kill ten guys a turn (which assumes you’re in range BTW) you won’t be doing much with a normal large blast.

Unless units are clustered in cover or it's a vehicle or a blob that has just been ejected from a transport. Clusters happen. You are assuming every single unit will be in a line that always prevents Blasts from doing AoE damage which just isn't a reality.
Also with range, unless both you and your opponent outright refuse to move your units and only deploy at the back of a table, the majority of the game should see a Typhon in range.

There’s rule of cool and there’s actively trying to throw your game by paying 425 points for what is a 150 point weapon. It’s a worse vindicator. Even in a totally casual game it’s too much and you would end up subconsciously compensating to ram it in.

My friend likes their Typhon, they use their Typhon. It didn't throw the game because they took it because they still came close to a win by the victory conditions. It nuked a lot of Space Marine and Auxilia infantry and broke a few tanks to boot. But other times it hasn't done much and my friend has won games.
We're talking about a game where we roll dice, nothing is ever set in stone.

 Gert wrote:

Spoiler:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because it isn’t cool.

That's entirely subjective.

You’re talking about a battle cannon profile with 24 range. You’re going to have this huge tank killing one or two models a turn. That’s not going to sell the experience.

Unless your mates are lining their units up shoulder to shoulder to let you kill ten guys a turn (which assumes you’re in range BTW) you won’t be doing much with a normal large blast.

Unless units are clustered in cover or it's a vehicle or a blob that has just been ejected from a transport. Clusters happen. You are assuming every single unit will be in a line that always prevents Blasts from doing AoE damage which just isn't a reality.
Also with range, unless both you and your opponent outright refuse to move your units and only deploy at the back of a table, the majority of the game should see a Typhon in range.

There’s rule of cool and there’s actively trying to throw your game by paying 425 points for what is a 150 point weapon. It’s a worse vindicator. Even in a totally casual game it’s too much and you would end up subconsciously compensating to ram it in.

My friend likes their Typhon, they use their Typhon. It didn't throw the game because they took it because they still came close to a win by the victory conditions. It nuked a lot of Space Marine and Auxilia infantry and broke a few tanks to boot. But other times it hasn't done much and my friend has won games.
We're talking about a game where we roll dice, nothing is ever set in stone.

I will never buy/use a model that I don't like.

If that's how some people enjoy the game, great. But it IS NOT the only way to play and most definitely the opposite of how I want to play.

It’s useless as an anti tank weapon because without AP2 or AP1 you can’t actually one shot a vehicle. You can knock a single hull point off and maybe do some damage on the chart. But a single lascannon can one shot a tank and the number of lascannons you can buy with 425 points is much better since even if you don’t destroy the tank you will hull point it. Even a stock land raider at half the price can have six times the AT potential. This is not a game where you’re degrading vehicle profiles this is a game where tanks are easily deleted and hull pointed out of existence in a single turn. Often not even your opponents turn these days.

Not even touching reactions. You fire that Typhon at a lascannon squad they loses two guys and then kill the tank in your own turn. Typhon doesn’t get reactions or intercept meaning it’s at a further disadvantage since it’s only firing in a max of six turns. Again, you being magically able to be in range and draw line of sight the whole game and not being destroyed in that timespan.

Plus it makes no sense lore wise. A Terminator could crawl into the barrel of the thing. How is a Scorpius rocket as dangerous as the Typhon when it’s got double the range and is a a third to a quarter in value?

Like it’s bordering on false marketing saying it can destroy heavy armour and remove whole squads of space marines. Sure, Guardsmen can kill squads of Space marines if you let them fire at you all day.

I'm going to guess you haven't come up against Gal vorbak, charonites, or custodes yet. 😬

It's also brilliant against mechanicum. Instant deaths thallax and ursurax and does 4 wounds with no armour saves on a 2+ with instant with no saves, 4 instead death wounds on a t6 magos on a 2+ instant death against all the automata except domitars and thanatars... And will still take a good chunk off of a domitar maniple.

Also re stuff grouping up. In theory hammer everything is Exactly 2" away from everything else but in the actual game this is pretty rare. Terrain, other units, objective holding, line of sight, combat, falling back, cover and countless other situations lead to units being bunched up and ready for a template. There's a reason templates all got nerfed this edition. Last edition they were way too strong and weren't a particularly enjoyable experience when taken in large numbers.

Plus, how are you only hitting 1-2 models with a 5" template? Just saying I wouldn't be so down on the typhon.

Its definitely not an anti tank weapon for sure. Great against land speeders mind you. I look forward to seeing a few more off them around nuking javelins. EVADE THIS 😂

I may pop purchase one and 3d print. Cerberus laser for it too 🤔

Typhon is also useful against Dreadnoughts, thanks to Brutal (4). And Primarchs I suppose. Both of course barring them passing whatever Invvulnerable save they might be toting. Same goes for any multi-wound infantry, but I’m not yet familiar enough to name names there.

The first time someone rolls four 1s for their dreadnought saves will be a fantastic day

Don’t forget the Rending. 50/50 chance of Dreadnought relying on whatever Inv they have.

I completely forgot that it had rending!

Yeah typhons are good 🤤

For a 425 point Lord of War I am being generous. If a quarter of my army goes into one unit that unit needs to do more than kill a handful of marines in the one or two turns it gets to fire.

The profile of a demolisher cannon hasn’t changed since 3rd edition. Nobody has ever said that they were overpowered. Nobody ever said Basilisks were overpowered. They have always been able to kill space marines if you landed a lucky shot with these incredibly expensive and vulnerable units. You had easy ways of countering artillery fire such as outflank, deep strike, basically any AT shooting and they are a threat that a smart opponent has to consider how to destroy. If you’re not trying to counter the enemies plan you should be punished for that.

To take a Vindicator. Triple its points cost. Knock a pip of AP off it. Make it a Lord of War so you can only take one of them. That is what has been done here. You’re paying near enough five hundred points for a weaker demolisher cannon.

In 1.0 I saw marine armies walk through Solar Auxilia tank armies where they were putting out ten of those templates a turn at 72 range. It’s very easy to counter large blasts. If you’re an idiot and walk across the battlefield without any supporting fire; you should take losses. You should run the risk that your elite units get focused down.

All this does is remove the ideal units to kill back line heavy support squads and deathstar units. Whilst also being too points inefficient to be worth killing tactical marines. You could buy a jump pack command squad with Praetor and kill twenty tacticals a turn without losing a man. That same Typhon could fire all day and only chip away at the same tactical block.

So, my theory on how to use the bombard. Target elites like termies or other multi would infanty. If you hit roughly 5 models even if they don't rend the target still has to make 4 saves or be instant gibbed. If it does rend then you have to hope you're rolling hot on those invuls.

It's got the stats to be able to paste some stuff and put a dent in anything else. The fact that even this primarch cost model isn't able to wipe out whole units is why I like HH more than 30k atm. Keep the lethality to a moderate level please. Yes, there is that magical moment when you land a direct hit on a dread talon and half health most of them. But I'd be pretty satisfied with killing most of a primarchs bodyguard in one shot, or punishing a combat unit that just charged a sacrificial roadbump.

Having a nuncio vox on the field is essential though. A blast that cost needs some assurance, and some tacticals to bubble wrap it a little.

You can take two Typhon, because you can Squadron them.

Also just….look at the beastie! It’s immense! And just One Errata Away From Glory 😂

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You can take two Typhon, because you can Squadron them.

Also just….look at the beastie! It’s immense! And just One Errata Away From Glory 😂

If there is a juicy target it would let you hit them pretty hard. Due to the differences between 2 units firing and one unit firing 2 blasts at once. Yeah you could hit a single unit pretty hard. But it'd have to be a pretty chunky unit to be worth a 900pts investment in dakka.

But what do you think needs to be errataed about it?

cody.d. wrote:
So, my theory on how to use the bombard. Target elites like termies or other multi would infanty. If you hit roughly 5 models even if they don't rend the target still has to make 4 saves or be instant gibbed. If it does rend then you have to hope you're rolling hot on those invuls.

It's got the stats to be able to paste some stuff and put a dent in anything else. The fact that even this primarch cost model isn't able to wipe out whole units is why I like HH more than 30k atm. Keep the lethality to a moderate level please. Yes, there is that magical moment when you land a direct hit on a dread talon and half health most of them. But I'd be pretty satisfied with killing most of a primarchs bodyguard in one shot, or punishing a combat unit that just charged a sacrificial roadbump.

Having a nuncio vox on the field is essential though. A blast that cost needs some assurance, and some tacticals to bubble wrap it a little.

Because other units do have the lethality. The games no less lethal than 40k. This is why you can alpha strike and charge from deep strike. Why every other gun got buffed. They’re pushing for shorter games that are over by turn 3.

Instead of a glorified debuffed vindicator I take two heavy weapon squads. Far more firepower. Can genuinely mow down infantry and kill tanks. Better range. Access to reactions.

How about a whole Contemptor talon. Three monstrous creatures with 2 up armour and invulnerable. Each one has the dakka and CC potential to wreck a unit.

Alternatively, just put those points into ten terminators or any other CC unit and have them gleefully kill any tactical squad in the game.

You can delete entire units in Heresy 2.0 it’s just not blasts doing it. If a unit doesn’t have the fire power to kill a tactical squad, for that point cost and at 24 range it is just not worth taking. There’s so many other units that can kill tactical squads so much easier. For 425 points I should be killing a squad a turn if I am only going to get one to two shots off before the thing gets destroyed by AT or charged.

cody.d. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You can take two Typhon, because you can Squadron them.

Also just….look at the beastie! It’s immense! And just One Errata Away From Glory 😂

If there is a juicy target it would let you hit them pretty hard. Due to the differences between 2 units firing and one unit firing 2 blasts at once. Yeah you could hit a single unit pretty hard. But it'd have to be a pretty chunky unit to be worth a 900pts investment in dakka.

But what do you think needs to be errataed about it?

I can see it being Errata’d to AP2. I’m not advocating for that though!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
So, my theory on how to use the bombard. Target elites like termies or other multi would infanty. If you hit roughly 5 models even if they don't rend the target still has to make 4 saves or be instant gibbed. If it does rend then you have to hope you're rolling hot on those invuls.

It's got the stats to be able to paste some stuff and put a dent in anything else. The fact that even this primarch cost model isn't able to wipe out whole units is why I like HH more than 30k atm. Keep the lethality to a moderate level please. Yes, there is that magical moment when you land a direct hit on a dread talon and half health most of them. But I'd be pretty satisfied with killing most of a primarchs bodyguard in one shot, or punishing a combat unit that just charged a sacrificial roadbump.

Having a nuncio vox on the field is essential though. A blast that cost needs some assurance, and some tacticals to bubble wrap it a little.

Because other units do have the lethality. The games no less lethal than 40k. This is why you can alpha strike and charge from deep strike. Why every other gun got buffed. They’re pushing for shorter games that are over by turn 3.

Instead of a glorified debuffed vindicator I take two heavy weapon squads. Far more firepower. Can genuinely mow down infantry and kill tanks. Better range. Access to reactions.

How about a whole Contemptor talon. Three monstrous creatures with 2 up armour and invulnerable. Each one has the dakka and CC potential to wreck a unit.

Alternatively, just put those points into ten terminators or any other CC unit and have them gleefully kill any tactical squad in the game.

You can delete entire units in Heresy 2.0 it’s just not blasts doing it. If a unit doesn’t have the fire power to kill a tactical squad, for that point cost and at 24 range it is just not worth taking. There’s so many other units that can kill tactical squads so much easier. For 425 points I should be killing a squad a turn if I am only going to get one to two shots off before the thing gets destroyed by AT or charged.

I'm not sure if I agree with a few points there.

In my experience most games of 30k tend to last till turn 5. And I think out of the 10 games i've played only one has been a wipe, and it happened last turn. Edit, 2 wipes now sorry, including the game I had last sat 3rd legion vs custodes. I got totally trounced, only killed a few expendable vehicles, a dread or two and lost everything myself due to poor rolling and worse choices. Still ended on the last turn as Valdor and friends poked Fulgrim to death.

A contemptor will often kill a handful of models in a unit yes, but mostly they'll only win combat because of their durability and combat res means they're doing slightly more damage than they're taking. Even a kitted out world eaters dread can potentially do meh damage to a tactical squad. Yes he won't lose to them but he can be held up for a few turns which could be a win for the tac squad, or hell even a 40pt unit of auxilia.

That terminator unit can indeed kill a tac squad. But they have to get there first and a big termie unit would cost what, 2 or 3 times the cost of the unit?

Heavy and special weapons squads are pretty powerful, but also quite squishy and you're inclined to invest in them further with moral buffs. Having that big 300pt unit pinned, falling back or even just wiped out hurts. And they could just wiff too. I'm fond of a ten marine melta squad in a rhino, roughly the cost of a typhon and even they might not kill a tank or dread. They're expensive, and a prime target for fall back reactions to slip out of melta range or hit them

Yes, if you get the right scenarios you can one shot units, but it feels a lot harder, a lot more counterplay than with 40K. Maybe it's because it's usually marine vs marines so if your opponent has that gun then you do to. but I still don't feel the same bad feels as when a tau army just splatters my force.

Side note, a warhound titan will pretty easily clear a unit or two of infantry off the board a turn, but... like it's 750pts so, im not sure if i'm mad.

I

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
So, my theory on how to use the bombard. Target elites like termies or other multi would infanty. If you hit roughly 5 models even if they don't rend the target still has to make 4 saves or be instant gibbed. If it does rend then you have to hope you're rolling hot on those invuls.

It's got the stats to be able to paste some stuff and put a dent in anything else. The fact that even this primarch cost model isn't able to wipe out whole units is why I like HH more than 30k atm. Keep the lethality to a moderate level please. Yes, there is that magical moment when you land a direct hit on a dread talon and half health most of them. But I'd be pretty satisfied with killing most of a primarchs bodyguard in one shot, or punishing a combat unit that just charged a sacrificial roadbump.

Having a nuncio vox on the field is essential though. A blast that cost needs some assurance, and some tacticals to bubble wrap it a little.

Because other units do have the lethality. The games no less lethal than 40k. This is why you can alpha strike and charge from deep strike. Why every other gun got buffed. They’re pushing for shorter games that are over by turn 3.

Instead of a glorified debuffed vindicator I take two heavy weapon squads. Far more firepower. Can genuinely mow down infantry and kill tanks. Better range. Access to reactions.

How about a whole Contemptor talon. Three monstrous creatures with 2 up armour and invulnerable. Each one has the dakka and CC potential to wreck a unit.

Alternatively, just put those points into ten terminators or any other CC unit and have them gleefully kill any tactical squad in the game.

You can delete entire units in Heresy 2.0 it’s just not blasts doing it. If a unit doesn’t have the fire power to kill a tactical squad, for that point cost and at 24 range it is just not worth taking. There’s so many other units that can kill tactical squads so much easier. For 425 points I should be killing a squad a turn if I am only going to get one to two shots off before the thing gets destroyed by AT or charged.

I. Dont reaally arree with most off your points here. Of the many games of heresy v2 I've played I think maybe about three have endedd in a tabling. Abd it's normal to play 5 turns
You're welcome to take your heavy support marines instead. Thankfully the game is designed where you have choice and different units achieve different tasks.. typhons are more effective against T5/t6 multiwound models than heavy support squads are and are vulnerable to different things. I'm not sure what the point youre trying to make is

Or take your talon 3 bare bones dreads for 525points. If that's what works for you then ideal.

What are you playing in your games at the moment?

When a dread wins a combat it’s quite likely to then run the unit down. That’s a unit kill. 300 point tactical squad gone. Twenty models dead. Three of them hitting a line, that’s sixty marines dead in one turn. Assuming they don’t fire and don’t then roll into other units.

In comparison your 425 point nerfed Demolisher cannon is going to be chipping away 4 to 5 guys until the enemy decides to lascannon or power fist it. Assuming it wasn’t destroyed crossing the board or by deep striking squads.

You say heavy weapons teams are squishy but so is a 6HP AV14 vehicle. Bolters aren’t killing your guys. Those twenty lascannon that can kill those heavy weapon teams will horrifically overkill a Typhon. It’s far more likely just a few rending shots will take the vehicle out. Plus having reactions means you’re giving free turns to the player. Or it just gets charged by Terminators and power fisted.

For the Typhon to be effective it has to be within 24. You can’t just sit at the back line lobbing shells and they don’t even do that much because it’s a just a standard AP3 blast. If you have ten terminators within 24 then you’re in that squads threat range. Plus, it’s a lot harder to shift ten terminators than it is a Typhon.

I know, it’s ridiculous that a Terminator squad is three times the cost of the unit. Imagine if your gun couldn’t even kill the unit and cost three times the amount. This is a 425 point tank.

A 750 point unit should be able to delete your canon fodder troop choices. It’s a Titan. But two Typhons that cost more would be lucky to kill ten tacticals with 24?

Again, false marketing. This tank is being sold as doom on tracks. But it’s been nerfed into oblivion and is far weaker at killing infantry.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s useless as an anti tank weapon because without AP2 or AP1 you can’t actually one shot a vehicle. You can knock a single hull point off and maybe do some damage on the chart. But a single lascannon can one shot a tank and the number of lascannons you can buy with 425 points is much better since even if you don’t destroy the tank you will hull point it. Even a stock land raider at half the price can have six times the AT potential. This is not a game where you’re degrading vehicle profiles this is a game where tanks are easily deleted and hull pointed out of existence in a single turn. Often not even your opponents turn these days.

6 on the damage table is a wreck, so it can, and being S12 means it penetrates things like Spartans and Land Raiders on a 2+.

Not even touching reactions. You fire that Typhon at a lascannon squad they loses two guys and then kill the tank in your own turn. Typhon doesn’t get reactions or intercept meaning it’s at a further disadvantage since it’s only firing in a max of six turns. Again, you being magically able to be in range and draw line of sight the whole game and not being destroyed in that timespan.

Deliberately targeting a unit that will delete you with Return Fire is bad tactics. Also, "magically" being in range means not being at the back of your deployment zone for the whole game and your opponent never leaving theirs. Again that's bad tactics. I also never said it had to survive the whole game.

Like it’s bordering on false marketing saying it can destroy heavy armour and remove whole squads of space marines. Sure, Guardsmen can kill squads of Space marines if you let them fire at you all day.

It can remove who Marine squads because I've literally seen it done. It can kill armour, just not as reliably as Lascannons but pretty much nothing can beat Lascannons in terms of AT right now. Have you tried using one in a game? Maybe if you did then you'd have some experience and not just statistics.

I'd also like to point out on the Marketing front. It's GW. GW overhypes literally every single release ever. That's what marketing is.

@bobug

I’ve got a fair few armies so I’ll got with the Imperial Fist list I used few months back. That army does have a Typhon in the collection but I wouldn’t use it and I didn’t take their Vindicators either. Waste of space.

Dorn
Ten Cata with shields
Mixture of chain and power fists

Ten Cata with two assault cannons.
Mixture of chain and power fists
Praetor with paragon blade and shield
Teleport beacons

Sigismund, 9 templar in a Land raider with lascannons

Rapier battery with shatter shells

Leviathan with storm cannon and siege drill

Twenty tactical marines with chain bayonet. Serg with power fist.

2 squads of fifteen Breachers. Serg with thunder hammer

Heavy weapon squad with heavy bolters

Was for a Primarch fight off. Went badly.

More usual list would be something like Death Guard which I am still building up.

Praetor with scythe
5 Deathshroud
Spartan (this has now been replaced with a Proteus now I have the model)

2 lots of fifteen tacticals with chain bayonets. Power fist sergeants. Apothecaries in squads.

1 Contemptor with assault cannon and power fist (who pretty much took an entire flank by himself)

Heavy weapon squad with autocannons ten guys.

In general though I am dropping tanks and artillery entirely from the armies since they don’t do the job of killing the enemy infantry and are very squishy. I tend to take too many expensive troop choices which are dead weight. Lots of units just end up being gunned down and pouring bolter fire into things just to shrug it off. Or close combat where the enemy have WS5 2 up save and FNP.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
For a 425 point Lord of War I am being generous. If a quarter of my army goes into one unit that unit needs to do more than kill a handful of marines in the one or two turns it gets to fire.

Spoiler:

The profile of a demolisher cannon hasn’t changed since 3rd edition. Nobody has ever said that they were overpowered. Nobody ever said Basilisks were overpowered. They have always been able to kill space marines if you landed a lucky shot with these incredibly expensive and vulnerable units. You had easy ways of countering artillery fire such as outflank, deep strike, basically any AT shooting and they are a threat that a smart opponent has to consider how to destroy. If you’re not trying to counter the enemies plan you should be punished for that.

To take a Vindicator. Triple its points cost. Knock a pip of AP off it. Make it a Lord of War so you can only take one of them. That is what has been done here. You’re paying near enough five hundred points for a weaker demolisher cannon.

In 1.0 I saw marine armies walk through Solar Auxilia tank armies where they were putting out ten of those templates a turn at 72 range. It’s very easy to counter large blasts. If you’re an idiot and walk across the battlefield without any supporting fire; you should take losses. You should run the risk that your elite units get focused down.

All this does is remove the ideal units to kill back line heavy support squads and deathstar units. Whilst also being too points inefficient to be worth killing tactical marines. You could buy a jump pack command squad with Praetor and kill twenty tacticals a turn without losing a man. That same Typhon could fire all day and only chip away at the same tactical block.

Herein lies your problem, running LOW @ 2k is asking for problems like this.

3k min for LOW, it really is where they belong. I'd rather play 3k over 2k any day

@Gert

A 1 in 6 chance as opposed to the 1 in 3 a lascannon gets.

Lascannons aren’t rare weapons. It’s a common weapon mounted to most vehicles, dreads and available to a core unit. That is a standard. If you want your Dreadhammer to be a 425 point AT gun then it should be a lot better than a single lascannon.

A Typhon should be able to kill a Heavy Weapon squad in one shot if it’s managed to cross the board and get into range. It’s not reasonable for an incredibly powerful shooting unit to get free turns of shooting. The alternative is to not shoot the squad at all in which case you might as well not bring the tank. A heavy weapon squad is precisely the sort of target you want an AP3 blast to kill.

With that range and its mediocre firepower you would have to survive a significant chunk of the game to get your points back. When in reality, your opponent can destroy your 425 tank with a single shot or easily hull point it in a turn or two.

Yes, a Battle cannon used to be able to kill ten marines if an opponent obliged you by blobbing up. But that Russ wasn’t a 425 point Lord of War and killing ten marines isn’t impressive for a 425 point model.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Racerguy180 wrote:
[quo
Herein lies your problem, running LOW @ 2k is asking for problems like this.

3k min for LOW, it really is where they belong. I'd rather play 3k over 2k any day

I only take LOW in 4K plus games and even then it’s usually only for big events. Once a year type deal. Like I haven’t used my Fellblade in five years or something like that.

So they’ve essentially made the Typhon unusable because it’s a 425 point AP3 Demolisher canon. That’s meant to be the centerpiece unit for the Imperial Fist army I’ve got and they nerfed it into oblivion.

If you want to use the typhon as anti tank you shoulda taken the cerbarus. The Typhon is an anti elite paster in my opinion. But if it scatters it's unlikely to be totally useless.

That and you're a fair bit more durable than a vindicator. AC14 plus flare shields does help against str9 and str8.

Now, what is the miniumum cost you'd expect to be able to clear out a tac squad?

You aren't going to convince me and I'm clearly not going to convince you. I think we should just stop here.

cody.d. wrote:
If you want to use the typhon as anti tank you shoulda taken the cerbarus. The Typhon is an anti elite paster in my opinion. But if it scatters it's unlikely to be totally useless.

That and you're a fair bit more durable than a vindicator. AC14 plus flare shields does help against str9 and str8.

Now, what is the miniumum cost you'd expect to be able to clear out a tac squad?

With the Typhon you got it for the huge pie plate to clear out hordes of power armour. That is what you want it for. The gimmick is that you rumble the doom tank forward and it fires point blank; allowing you to shovel away enemy cannon fodder if they don’t destroy it.

AV14 can easily be knocked out. Be clear here, I’ve not even went up against armies with ten lascannons and these tanks/artillery are unusable. If close combat armies with trivial AT can deal with all tank armies then they won’t survive an actual shooting army. Just a smattering of rending and a few power fists deals with these tanks very handily. They’re not tough.

For a unit that has to get within point blank range to fire, is mounted on a slow moving and very squishy tank? 250 points. That’s in line with a Contemptor or Terminator squad that can do the same thing. It’s only going to fire twice in a game on average so that’s ten marines a turn. This means on a typical game it will make its points back and on a good game can go past that. If it survives and you let it carry on firing that’s your opponent losing the game. As I said, modest AT can kill that tank. Few sniper rifles and a leviathan storm cannon; things junk.

The idea being that your opponent has ample time to destroy the tank before it can fire or take it out once it’s moved within threat range. If he can’t do that it’s because he’s losing the game.

For 425 points, either it should have a monster template that ignores cover. Goodbye apothecary squads. Alternatively it’s there to put a shell into a deathstar as an alternative to getting your own melee death stack.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
If you want to use the typhon as anti tank you shoulda taken the cerbarus. The Typhon is an anti elite paster in my opinion. But if it scatters it's unlikely to be totally useless.

That and you're a fair bit more durable than a vindicator. AC14 plus flare shields does help against str9 and str8.

Now, what is the miniumum cost you'd expect to be able to clear out a tac squad?

With the Typhon you got it for the huge pie plate to clear out hordes of power armour. That is what you want it for. The gimmick is that you rumble the doom tank forward and it fires point blank; allowing you to shovel away enemy cannon fodder if they don’t destroy it.

AV14 can easily be knocked out. Be clear here, I’ve not even went up against armies with ten lascannons and these tanks/artillery are unusable. If close combat armies with trivial AT can deal with all tank armies then they won’t survive an actual shooting army. Just a smattering of rending and a few power fists deals with these tanks very handily. They’re not tough.

For a unit that has to get within point blank range to fire, is mounted on a slow moving and very squishy tank? 250 points. That’s in line with a Contemptor or Terminator squad that can do the same thing. It’s only going to fire twice in a game on average so that’s ten marines a turn. This means on a typical game it will make its points back and on a good game can go past that. If it survives and you let it carry on firing that’s your opponent losing the game. As I said, modest AT can kill that tank. Few sniper rifles and a leviathan storm cannon; things junk.

The idea being that your opponent has ample time to destroy the tank before it can fire or take it out once it’s moved within threat range. If he can’t do that it’s because he’s losing the game.

For 425 points, either it should have a monster template that ignores cover. Goodbye apothecary squads. Alternatively it’s there to put a shell into a deathstar as an alternative to getting your own melee death stack.

If you're trying to kill base line infantry with it all of the profile you're using is the large blast, the AP and a str above 6. At that point you may as well just take a plasma pred.

To get your moneys worth you need to leverage that brutal 4 and the ability to instant death T6 or lower. Even if a termie takes a ap 3 hit from it it's still got to roll 4 saves and pass every one or be removed. You kill veterans or legion specific units and it is much more likley to make an impact.

Yes unsupported it's going to get drawn up in combat and killed, but you could say that for every unit that shoots better than it punches.

cody.d. wrote:
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If you're trying to kill base line infantry with it all of the profile you're using is the large blast, the AP and a str above 6. At that point you may as well just take a plasma pred.

To get your moneys worth you need to leverage that brutal 4 and the ability to instant death T6 or lower. Even if a termie takes a ap 3 hit from it it's still got to roll 4 saves and pass every one or be removed. You kill veterans or legion specific units and it is much more likley to make an impact.

Yes unsupported it's going to get drawn up in combat and killed, but you could say that for every unit that shoots better than it punches.

Which is why it should have the bigger template. So you can kill more infantry in one shot. If a Predator does the same thing for half the price then the Typhon is double what it should be. Hell the Scorpius is a 120 points and has double the range. Is brutal worth 300 points and having half range?

The Terminator gets to reroll his armour. He isn’t failing that save. Brutal only means he’s likely going to fail that invulnerable save on your tends. But you’re hitting so few models it won’t matter. You’re still having to get a perfect hit, half what you hit actually matters and then he still gets a decent invulnerable to resist. Say you hit 4 guys. Only half will rend. So we are talking two terminators for a 425 point of shooting. Lascannons can kill terminators.

You’re fighting marines most of the time. Being str12 is a gimmick. Much rather be str 10 with AP2 than have three different AT special rules on the pie plate I want to kill infantry with.

Because things like heavy weapon squads are firing every turn and can sit back. I have to drive the Typhon towards units that can kill it easily. You say “unsupported” what does that even mean. If my support can kill then ten terminators or assault squad, well I ll just take the support and not bother with the Typhon.

For me 425 points should be an enough to decisively change the battle and form a key part of your armies killing power. It shouldn’t be “oh it can instant kill Thallax” and gimmicky rules that aren’t what it should be about. Dropping a pie template on the enemy infantry at point blank range.

Again I know what a Demolisher canon does. It’s not worth 425 plus points and that’s with an AP2 blast.

Even the 625 point Fellblade doesn’t get a large AP2 blast. So they’re obviously are trying to disincentivise taking these units and force the gameplay to be infantry focused. Only when you get to things like Titans have they finally relented and been like “well it is a Titan. It probably should be able to kill a Terminator.” 🙄

I don’t know what the writers were thinking. We’re going to release this tank in plastic but we’ll make it weaker than a normal Demolisher cannon and so overcosted you’re playing with a handicap.

Well when I refer to support I generally mean cheap infantry meant to block advances, charge incoming assault units to tie them up or fulfill slots the unit they're supporting cant.

An example would be a tank or heavy weapon squadron. Good killing power but not overly sturdy or does not want to be charged. A good way to deal with them would be for the opponent to throw a melta squad at them, or move a sky hunters unit in and charge them to tie them up or grind them down.

A squad of tactical marines would be useful standing a few inches away from the tank, either to stop a melta squad getting in half range by moving in the way or wrapping around the heavy weapons to keep them from getting charged. Part of the reason I like 30K over 40K is that you can't just shoot at one unit then charge another. You gotta commit and weigh options.

I'm kinda okay with massive blasts being rare. Especially for short ranged weapons which may cause the template to overlap onto your own units. Pretty sure you still can't fire a blast if it covers your models. Could be wrong tough.

Funny thing is, won't a titan struggle to kill a dread? That's something that makes me grumble. The game has a kinda rock paper scissors feel. Except it's infantry, tank, dreadnaught.