Tyranids Taking Over - May GTs

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**Karol**

Imagine if a predator could spawn a unit of 10 scouts, for free once per game, or heal nearby units of scouts. And while a squad of scouts is close it can stand in the open and it will not get shot at.

**NinthMusketeer**

vict0988 wrote:
If you play against Tyranids just cheat. At the end of your turns just tell your opponent you'll be adding 5VP to your score to make up for the handicap your opponent is getting by playing a busted faction. If they laugh at your "joke" give them an unnerving stare while flaring your nostrils and then say you'll add another 5 VP.

Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Near as I can tell, main malceptor problem comes from stratagems allowing extra psychic cast. Simple fix. Kill that stratagem. Malceptor is fine. Stratagems ( as usual) breaks things.

Better Stratagems just means you're more likely to take 0 or 1 instead 0 or 3 and I don't think it's a bad thing that people are encouraged to take 1 instead of 3 of some units. Points just need to be hiked for popular Tyranids units.

If you play at an ITC tourney just cheat. There's little to no oversight and little to no punishment. Just say 'oops I misremembered ' if your opponent catches you then go back to 'misremembering' next game.

**VladimirHerzog**

Karol wrote:
Imagine if a predator could spawn a unit of 10 scouts, for free once per game, or heal nearby units of scouts. And while a squad of scouts is close it can stand in the open and it will not get shot at.

Notice how i only mentioned the resiliency? Your comment focused on something i didnt say.

**Karol**

JNAProductions wrote:
Are tanks considered worth taking?

And not being wounded on 2s doesn’t matter much when you’re T7 and T8.
How many weapons are S14+?

Every non marine player told us humble marine players that the advent of AoC would mean the tables would be swarmed with marine tanks.
Again look at the stats and the points costs. Look how much a carnifex or a flyernt costs, and then compare it to stuff other armies can have. And yeah 90pts void weavers are maybe close to that. Everything else not so much.

Try shoting at a t8 MC, that shrugs off the shots on 1-3, with a str 7 weapon then.

**JNAProductions**

Karol wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Are tanks considered worth taking?

And not being wounded on 2s doesn’t matter much when you’re T7 and T8.
How many weapons are S14+?

Every non marine player told us humble marine players that the advent of AoC would mean the tables would be swarmed with marine tanks.
Again look at the stats and the points costs. Look how much a carnifex or a flyernt costs, and then compare it to stuff other armies can have. And yeah 90pts void weavers are maybe close to that. Everything else not so much.

Try shoting at a t8 MC, that shrugs off the shots on 1-3, with a str 7 weapon then.

You do realize that a S7 weapon is already wounding on a 5+? So the Leviathan rule does literally nothing?

**Karol**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Karol wrote:
Imagine if a predator could spawn a unit of 10 scouts, for free once per game, or heal nearby units of scouts. And while a squad of scouts is close it can stand in the open and it will not get shot at.

Notice how i only mentioned the resiliency? Your comment focused on something i didnt say.

I have not seen your post, when I was writing my. I find the idea that someone could say that a carnifex is "debatebly" good and a tervigon is "bad" extremly funny.

**VladimirHerzog**

Karol wrote:

Every non marine player told us humble marine players that the advent of AoC would mean the tables would be swarmed with marine tanks.

Lol no, people said it would make tanks better, not that it would make them OP. People were saying Terminators would be the biggest winners and so far theyve been right. Theoretically the land raider with tis 2+ save would also be a big winner but the problem is it has less damage output than my geriatric grandma.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Try shoting at a t8 MC, that shrugs off the shots on 1-3, with a str 7 weapon then.

I don't think you're making the point you think you're making with comments like these...

**ERJAK**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.

If GW wasn't completely incompetent with rules writing, this stuff wouldn't happen. This type of thing is the 'well it's your fault for dressing like that' of the wargaming world.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well say the points hikes on harpies and malacapters mean -150pts for the tyranid army. Would it be substentially weaker, not weak just weaker, with one less carnifex in it? Because that was the problem with DE points hikes, where just one extra court got cut, and how changes to eldar inari looked in 8th ed.

The issue is tipping points. Lets say a hike of 30-50 points per model brought Maleceptors and Harpies down to "Balanced" rather than "good".

In practice competitive Tyranid lists would just stop including Maleceptors and Harpies (or maybe have one Maleceptor max etc). So rather than spending the 150~ points they'd spend them on other things in the book. If those options were inferior, you'd expect Tyranid win % to fall. But if they aren't, it wouldn't really matter. You just sidestep the nerf.

The equivalent for DE would be how there was the idea that aside from mass DT liquifier wracks, the Covens section wasn't very good. You really wanted to sink your points in raiders, wyches and incubi etc.
Now we don't have a perfect scenario - because when GW finally hiked the points of raiders, wyches and incubi, they also slightly decreased the points on most covens stuff. (Talos down 10, Grots down 5 etc).
But suddenly (and tbh, I think there's some evidence DE list construction was creeping this way already even before the changes) - the Covens stuff was the best in the game. But those units had been there for months. The fact they had been say 50~ points worse off doesn't really explain this rags to riches rise. You just need some top players to pilot and publicise it.

Flat 15% nerf to every unit in the book, rounding up to the nearest 5.

**Tyel**

ERJAK wrote:
Flat 15% nerf to every unit in the book, rounding up to the nearest 5.

Its the only way to be sure.

More seriously there are some things which are kind of meh in the book - but its because there aren't ways to obviously boost them. (Or if there are, I've not encountered them yet.) I can't imagine people will be running 3 Toxicrenes for instance.

**Thadin**

Big bugs could use a points bump. Warriors are borderline I feel. Please reduce points on Termagants and Hormagaunts. There's nearly no reason to take them besides MSU horms for objective sitting or screening.

The biggest problem though, is the existence of Encircle the Prey. It's too powerful.

**Ordana**

Thadin wrote:
Big bugs could use a points bump. Warriors are borderline I feel. Please reduce points on Termagants and Hormagaunts. There's nearly no reason to take them besides MSU horms for objective sitting or screening.

The biggest problem though, is the existence of Encircle the Prey. It's too powerful.

yeah no. There is no world in which Warriors should be 25 points with whatever loadout you want.

**Hecaton**

JohnnyHell wrote:
Oh look. Competitive players spammed stuff from a Codex pre-FAQ… ensuring nerfs for everyone. Yawn. Competitive is a curse, haha.

Well if it's overpowered it deserves a nerf.

**Tyran**

Encircle the Prey is the most broken thing in the book, in that I agree.

Luckily there are endless ways to fix it, from a CP increase, one per battle limits or even simply changing the wording so it has to be used during the moment phase (my favorite option).

The other obvious nerf is FAQing the double cannon Tyrant which is a clear writing mistake.

**Thadin**

Ordana wrote:
Thadin wrote:
Big bugs could use a points bump. Warriors are borderline I feel. Please reduce points on Termagants and Hormagaunts. There's nearly no reason to take them besides MSU horms for objective sitting or screening.

The biggest problem though, is the existence of Encircle the Prey. It's too powerful.
yeah no. There is no world in which Warriors should be 25 points with whatever loadout you want.

It's hard to say. I don't feel like warriors are that impactful, but I will say I wouldn't be surprised if they bump their cost up, or make Dual boneswords cost more than other weapons. Warriors are picked because they're the best option to fill the troops slot, since there's near no point in taking the similarly-costed Gaunts/Gants. Even if Warriors are more 'vulnerable' to popular profiles, your D2 and D3s.

**Tyran**

Make deathspiters cost 1-2 ppm and dual boneswords 2-3 ppm.

The base cost is fine though.

**Ordana**

yeah you could try to sell me on a 25 pts Scything Talon, Devourer Warrior. Tho even that is certainly on the cheap side for a t5 3w 3A model.
Add Deathspitters and Boneswords and it gets ridiculous.

I mean, I'm a GSC player. We still pay 30 points for a 2 attack Aberrant.

**Dysartes**

Tyran wrote:
The other obvious nerf is FAQing the double cannon Tyrant which is a clear writing mistake.

I'm curious - and please bear in mind I haven't read the book myself yet - but what makes you say that loadout (double Venom Cannon, I take it?) is a clear writing mistake?

**Thadin**

There's some rules chicanery that lets you take one of the Relic heavy weapons in addition to it's default version, bypassing the limit saying you can only have one ranged weapon on the footrant.

Edit: Whoops, got my rules weirdness mixed up. As Tyran says below.

**Tyran**

Dysartes wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The other obvious nerf is FAQing the double cannon Tyrant which is a clear writing mistake.

I'm curious - and please bear in mind I haven't read the book myself yet - but what makes you say that loadout (double Venom Cannon, I take it?) is a clear writing mistake?

Because you cannot take a stranglethorn and a heavy venom cannon, yet apparently you can take two heavy venom cannons? or a venom cannon and the relic version?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Imagine if a predator could spawn a unit of 10 scouts, for free once per game, or heal nearby units of scouts. And while a squad of scouts is close it can stand in the open and it will not get shot at.

Ignoring of course that we are talking about a Tervigon, which at its cheapest it 25 points more expensive than a fully equipped Predator (and 85 points more expensive than a base Predator), has pretty much no shooting, mediocre melee and is a mediocre psyker. Its ability to spawn gants and reinforce them is pretty much 90% of what it does. Moreover 10 scouts are a far more powerful unit than 10 termagants.

Also if you cannot kill 15 T3 1W Sv5+ models in the open, then you don't deserve to shot at a Tervigon.

**Karol**

Most armies have a limited number of shots. Specially those that aren't as aggresivly costed as tyranids. If my units have to kill 15 guants, before they can start to shot at a tervigon, then those shots aren't going to something else, and as I said before, the way nid stuff is costed, something else is a lot of things.

**Ordana**

Tyran wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Tyran wrote:
The other obvious nerf is FAQing the double cannon Tyrant which is a clear writing mistake.

I'm curious - and please bear in mind I haven't read the book myself yet - but what makes you say that loadout (double Venom Cannon, I take it?) is a clear writing mistake?

Because you cannot take a stranglethorn and a heavy venom cannon, yet apparently you can take two heavy venom cannons? or a venom cannon and the relic version?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Imagine if a predator could spawn a unit of 10 scouts, for free once per game, or heal nearby units of scouts. And while a squad of scouts is close it can stand in the open and it will not get shot at.

Ignoring of course that we are talking about a Tervigon, which at its cheapest it 25 points more expensive than a fully equipped Predator (and 85 points more expensive than a base Predator), has pretty much no shooting, mediocre melee and is a mediocre psyker. Its ability to spawn gants and reinforce them is pretty much 90% of what it does. Moreover 10 scouts are a far more powerful unit than 10 termagants.

Also if you cannot kill 15 T3 1W Sv5+ models in the open, then you don't deserve to shot at a Tervigon.

you realise to have a 50/50 shot at killing 15 gaunts its 50 bolter shots right?
or 27 Bs 3+, str 6 AP -2 shots.

That is not an insignificant amount of firepower now being spent on an insignificant target just to get to something that might matter.

**ccs**

Honestly? I've probably got more important targets to worry about than the Tervigon. Or the 15 bugs body-guarding it.

**Tyran**

Ordana wrote:

You realise to have a 50/50 shot at killing 15 gaunts its 50 bolter shots right?
or 27 Bs 3+, str 6 AP -2 shots.

That is not an insignificant amount of firepower now being spent on an insignificant target just to get to something that might matter.

And you realize that a 30 termagant unit plus Tervigon is 425 points at minimum right?
It is not an insignificant investment for a unit whose entire purpose is to throw bodies at the enemy.

**VladimirHerzog**

Karol wrote:
Most armies have a limited number of shots. Specially those that aren't as aggresivly costed as tyranids. If my units have to kill 15 guants, before they can start to shot at a tervigon, then those shots aren't going to something else, and as I said before, the way nid stuff is costed, something else is a lot of things.

you know the bolters you keep complaining that they do no damage? Theyre perfect for killing gaunts.

**Dudeface**

Tyran wrote:
Ordana wrote:

You realise to have a 50/50 shot at killing 15 gaunts its 50 bolter shots right?
or 27 Bs 3+, str 6 AP -2 shots.

That is not an insignificant amount of firepower now being spent on an insignificant target just to get to something that might matter.

And you realize that a 30 termagant unit plus Tervigon is 425 points at minimum right?
It is not an insignificant investment for a unit whose entire purpose is to throw bodies at the enemy.

And the 50 bolter shots needed to kill the 15 gaunts (I haven't checked ordanas math) is 470 points, not an insignificant investment to clear 15 chaff for a unit apparently well suited to it.

**tneva82**

Well yea if your math is correct it's somewhat over durable. 315 pts of bolters should be able to one shot 15 termagaunts

**Blackie**

Dudeface wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Ordana wrote:

You realise to have a 50/50 shot at killing 15 gaunts its 50 bolter shots right?
or 27 Bs 3+, str 6 AP -2 shots.

That is not an insignificant amount of firepower now being spent on an insignificant target just to get to something that might matter.

And you realize that a 30 termagant unit plus Tervigon is 425 points at minimum right?
It is not an insignificant investment for a unit whose entire purpose is to throw bodies at the enemy.

And the 50 bolter shots needed to kill the 15 gaunts (I haven't checked ordanas math) is 470 points, not an insignificant investment to clear 15 chaff for a unit apparently well suited to it.

Not really. 5 aggressors are 225 points for 30 bolter shots + 5D6 grenade launcher shots, which are also Blast. So 60 S4 shots, 30 of which can benefit from doctrines. Or you can take the full squad for 270 points and get 36 bolter shots and 36 grenade launcher shots against that 15 unit of gaunts.

**Dudeface**

Blackie wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyran wrote:
Ordana wrote:

You realise to have a 50/50 shot at killing 15 gaunts its 50 bolter shots right?
or 27 Bs 3+, str 6 AP -2 shots.

That is not an insignificant amount of firepower now being spent on an insignificant target just to get to something that might matter.

And you realize that a 30 termagant unit plus Tervigon is 425 points at minimum right?
It is not an insignificant investment for a unit whose entire purpose is to throw bodies at the enemy.

And the 50 bolter shots needed to kill the 15 gaunts (I haven't checked ordanas math) is 470 points, not an insignificant investment to clear 15 chaff for a unit apparently well suited to it.

Not really. 5 aggressors are 225 points for 30 bolter shots + 5D6 grenade launcher shots, which are also Blast. So 60 S4 shots, 30 of which can benefit from doctrines. Or you can take the full squad for 270 points and get 36 bolter shots and 36 grenade launcher shots against that 15 unit of gaunts.

Sorry I was comparing it to bolters specifically due to the comments that "bolters are perfect for killing guants", standard bolter caddy for loyalist Marines which I'm assured is 90% of bolter wielders(/s), is the tac marine at 18.

So no, bolters aren't great because the thing firing them costs too much, aggressors are built for the task however as shown.

**Blackie**

The point is gaunts are the appropriate target for bolters and you might need bolter guys anyway. It's not like you have to invest tons of points in basic bolter dudes to deal with gaunts efficiently.

You have to bring some bolter guys and those gaunts are a perfect target. You don't target high T and save monsters with bolters, that'd be a waste of shots.

Bolters might not be great in a vacuum, but some platforms + weapon, like SM ones, definitely are for what they provide: obj sec, reasonably tough bodies, decent firepower, etc...

Kabalite warriors or shoota boyz are asbolutely terrible in dealing with gaunts, not intercessors/tacs.

**Dudeface**

Blackie wrote:
The point is gaunts are the appropriate target for bolters and you might need bolter guys anyway. It's not like you have to invest tons of points in basic bolter dudes to deal with gaunts efficiently.

You have to bring some bolter guys and those gaunts are a perfect target. You don't target high T and save monsters with bolters, that'd be a waste of shots.

Bolters might not be great in a vacuum, but some platforms + weapon, like SM ones, definitely are for what they provide: obj sec, reasonably tough bodies, decent firepower, etc...

Kabalite warriors or shoota boyz are asbolutely terrible in dealing with gaunts, not intercessors/tacs.

What you mean to say is "you need to have bolter guys anyway so they might as well fire at the gaunts" if 2 tac squads don't kill 15 gaunts which are then reinforced by the tervigon anyway it's a bit of a futile effort. It's all maths and hypotheticals which don't really translate into real world games anyway usually to be honest.

Edit: also shoota boyz are pretty bad at dealing with anything, that's just not a fair comparison for anyone.