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 vict0988 wrote:
What happened last time GW was in dire straights because they had been producing terrible rules and people left the hobby? They produced a tonne of content and made a much better new edition. Supporting what is currently being produced gets you more of what is currently being produced, this should not be a surprise.

Actually they closed a load of stores, turned remaining stores into one-man operations, created Finecast, sold the IP license to any video game company who asked then when all that failed they fired their CEO and replaced him with someone who continued the same practices as before but was just better at presenting it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would anyone be happy about Battlescribe going away?

There is another semi-professional entity making a replacement. I forget who they are called though.

 Just_Breathe wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would anyone be happy about Battlescribe going away?

There is another semi-professional entity making a replacement. I forget who they are called though.

Given you said semi-professional is it games workshop?

Dudeface wrote:

 Just_Breathe wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why would anyone be happy about Battlescribe going away?

There is another semi-professional entity making a replacement. I forget who they are called though.

Given you said semi-professional is it games workshop?

The reason I said that is because when I asked if they had a Patreon, they said they wanted to wait until they had an actually good product.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
What happened last time GW was in dire straights because they had been producing terrible rules and people left the hobby? They produced a tonne of content and made a much better new edition. Supporting what is currently being produced gets you more of what is currently being produced, this should not be a surprise.

Actually they closed a load of stores, turned remaining stores into one-man operations, created Finecast, sold the IP license to any video game company who asked then when all that failed they fired their CEO and replaced him with someone who continued the same practices as before but was just better at presenting it.

Even with the cherry picking and misrepresentation, your timeline's so far off it's impossible to take this seriously.

ERJAK wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
What happened last time GW was in dire straights because they had been producing terrible rules and people left the hobby? They produced a tonne of content and made a much better new edition. Supporting what is currently being produced gets you more of what is currently being produced, this should not be a surprise.

Actually they closed a load of stores, turned remaining stores into one-man operations, created Finecast, sold the IP license to any video game company who asked then when all that failed they fired their CEO and replaced him with someone who continued the same practices as before but was just better at presenting it.

Even with the cherry picking and misrepresentation, your timeline's so far off it's impossible to take this seriously.

So that didn't all happen during 6th and 7th Ed?

Mods, please take this thread out behind the barn and do the blammo thing.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Mods, please take this thread out behind the barn and do the blammo thing.

Agreed, where is the "Tyranids remain massively broken - June GTs" thread?

You can bring the thread back on course rather than asking it be closed.

I mean this weekend... Tyranids still had a 65% win rate. Harlequins 62%. Not sure anyone else was especially obnoxious on paper. (I mean Ynnari did well - but it was a handful of players.)

The supposedly dead Custodes were on 57%, Tau were on 53% but won 3 major events. Craftworld's were on 53% with a lot of placings. Sisters on 48% but they had quite a few placings too. A Thousand Sons player went 5-0 to win a tournament. Imperial Knights are placing.

Basically, Tyranids, Harlequins and probably Tau/CWE need some nerfs. A slight tailoring and buffs for the struggling factions (IG, DG etc) and we'd be pretty close.

But its clear we are getting a table flip reset with the next season, so... what's there to say?

I actually find Dark Eldar the most obnoxious faction.

Since their release in March 2021 (15 months ago) and ignoring 8th edition factions who have just been dumpstered until their codex (and some are still waiting), they have still managed to be better than 9th edition Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Necrons, Space Marines, Sisters, Orks, Ad Mech, GSC for most of the edition.

For Necrons/DG DE have been better 95%+ of the time, for TS/Marines maybe 90% of the time, for Orks/Sisters/AdMech/GSC maybe 85%~75% of the time. It looks like CK and IK will be joining GSC in the much newer codexes that still can't match the DE for win rate club too.

They have never been sufficiently nerfed and instead have got to quietly enjoy being better month after month after month. Tournament after tournament after tournament you and your friends show up with your Marines, your TSons, etc and face down the new meta hotness, but in addition to that lurking in one of the later mid table rounds there always seems to be a DE player with a bunch of units that still make me go "they only cost X points and they do what again?"

Tyel wrote:
You can bring the thread back on course rather than asking it be closed.

I mean this weekend... Tyranids still had a 65% win rate. Harlequins 62%. Not sure anyone else was especially obnoxious on paper. (I mean Ynnari did well - but it was a handful of players.)

The supposedly dead Custodes were on 57%, Tau were on 53% but won 3 major events. Craftworld's were on 53% with a lot of placings. Sisters on 48% but they had quite a few placings too. A Thousand Sons player went 5-0 to win a tournament. Imperial Knights are placing.

Basically, Tyranids, Harlequins and probably Tau/CWE need some nerfs. A slight tailoring and buffs for the struggling factions (IG, DG etc) and we'd be pretty close.

But its clear we are getting a table flip reset with the next season, so... what's there to say?

Most of those Custodes were running FW dreads, which speaks to the rumored nerfs there, but otherwise we'll definitely be needing a number of weeks to get our feet under us soon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EightFoldPath wrote:
I actually find Dark Eldar the most obnoxious faction.

Since their release in March 2021 (15 months ago) and ignoring 8th edition factions who have just been dumpstered until their codex (and some are still waiting), they have still managed to be better than 9th edition Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Necrons, Space Marines, Sisters, Orks, Ad Mech, GSC for most of the edition.

For Necrons/DG DE have been better 95%+ of the time, for TS/Marines maybe 90% of the time, for Orks/Sisters/AdMech/GSC maybe 85%~75% of the time. It looks like CK and IK will be joining GSC in the much newer codexes that still can't match the DE for win rate club too.

They have never been sufficiently nerfed and instead have got to quietly enjoy being better month after month after month. Tournament after tournament after tournament you and your friends show up with your Marines, your TSons, etc and face down the new meta hotness, but in addition to that lurking in one of the later mid table rounds there always seems to be a DE player with a bunch of units that still make me go "they only cost X points and they do what again?"

I think part of the DE success is the coven AoR letting them push out 4+++ grots and wracks, which are super hard to trade off objectives. Their shooting sucks, but the durability is off the charts.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You can bring the thread back on course rather than asking it be closed.

I mean this weekend... Tyranids still had a 65% win rate. Harlequins 62%. Not sure anyone else was especially obnoxious on paper. (I mean Ynnari did well - but it was a handful of players.)

The supposedly dead Custodes were on 57%, Tau were on 53% but won 3 major events. Craftworld's were on 53% with a lot of placings. Sisters on 48% but they had quite a few placings too. A Thousand Sons player went 5-0 to win a tournament. Imperial Knights are placing.

Basically, Tyranids, Harlequins and probably Tau/CWE need some nerfs. A slight tailoring and buffs for the struggling factions (IG, DG etc) and we'd be pretty close.

But its clear we are getting a table flip reset with the next season, so... what's there to say?

Most of those Custodes were running FW dreads, which speaks to the rumored nerfs there, but otherwise we'll definitely be needing a number of weeks to get our feet under us soon.

There's rumours of nerfs to Custodes fw dreads? Where from? And do you have any other rumours to share with us, Daed?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
There's rumours of nerfs to Custodes fw dreads? Where from? And do you have any other rumours to share with us, Daed?

I'd have to dig around for that one. I don't recall the original source. Nothing else at the moment.

I feel DE just have an intrinsic advantage in that they are so fast. Its a similar issue with Harlequins and to an extent CWE. It makes getting around objectives very easy. (As compared with say a foot slogging DG list.)

I'd say Herd the Prey is overpowered - but if it was removed you'd go Stranglehold or at worst Engage. I guess we'll see how things look when everything is revealed.

Tyel wrote:
I feel DE just have an intrinsic advantage in that they are so fast. Its a similar issue with Harlequins and to an extent CWE. It makes getting around objectives very easy. (As compared with say a foot slogging DG list.)

I'd say Herd the Prey is overpowered - but if it was removed you'd go Stranglehold or at worst Engage. I guess we'll see how things look when everything is revealed.

Yea Strangle is a big one, which is good that it will be gone. Engage is nerfed as well as Herd.

Tyel wrote:
I feel DE just have an intrinsic advantage in that they are so fast. Its a similar issue with Harlequins and to an extent CWE. It makes getting around objectives very easy. (As compared with say a foot slogging DG list.)

I'd say Herd the Prey is overpowered - but if it was removed you'd go Stranglehold or at worst Engage. I guess we'll see how things look when everything is revealed.

They have an intrinsic advantage as they aren't priced correctly. If speed is good in 9th, it should have a cost to reflect that.

We'll see what the new points do, but I'll be very surprised if DE end up in the bottom 50% of codexes.

I'm really interested about this implication that DE should be in the bottom 50% of codexes. And with interested I mean slightly disgusted.

DE currently have a 51% win rate according to Fight Club, they are fine.

They have a 51% win rate but that puts them in the top 25% of codexes.

50% of all codexes are in the bottom 50%...

DE have not been in the bottom 50% for 15 months...

In a system where the factions rise and fall, shouldn't each codex spend some amount of time in the bottom 50%???

So at some point shouldn't DE be in the bottom 50%???

I'd be very surprised if DE were drastically nerfed. I guess they could nerf Wracks to say 9-10 points - but this feels like something that should have happened in June 2021, not 12 months later.

But that's what they eventually got round to doing with Ravagers in 8th.

But then this was probably sent to the printers 6~ months ago, when DE were riding high, so who knows.

No, the points changes are digital now, so that they can (in theory) be done based on the current meta.

I'm also not saying it should be a design goal to nerf DE to smithereens, but I am saying it will not be a crime against elfdom if attempting to buff weaker factions that have languished at the bottom for a long time, results in DE dropping into the bottom 50%.

I'll say this next bit in spolier tags as I can tell there are a few elves almost ready to swoon at the thought:


Then once they have succesfully improved some other factions to be above them, then they can consider where to buff DE at the next points update.

EightFoldPath wrote:
No, the points changes are digital now, so that they can (in theory) be done based on the current meta.

I'm also not saying it should be a design goal to nerf DE to smithereens, but I am saying it will not be a crime against elfdom if attempting to buff weaker factions that have languished at the bottom for a long time, results in DE dropping into the bottom 50%.

I'll say this next bit in spolier tags as I can tell there are a few elves almost ready to swoon at the thought:

Spoiler:

But it wouldn't even be so bad if they were in the bottom 25% for a short period.

Then once they have succesfully improved some other factions to be above them, then they can consider where to buff DE at the next points update.

Speaking as someone who plays Nurgle...
NO FACTION should be hitting sub 25% win rates. Not a one.

If you just meant "Dark Eldar should be in the bottom quarter of factions, but still have a good 45% or so win rate" that's a lot more acceptable.

But just in general, don't make a current army pay for the sins of the past. If [FACTION] is too good, nerf them till they're just right. But don't nerf them past that. Likewise, if [FACTION] is too weak, buff them till they're just right. Don't buff them to be godly.
Obviously actually balancing things properly is hard, and the exact metrics will likely never be met. But the goal should be there.

EightFoldPath wrote:
They have a 51% win rate but that puts them in the top 25% of codexes.

50% of all codexes are in the bottom 50%...

DE have not been in the bottom 50% for 15 months...

In a system where the factions rise and fall, shouldn't each codex spend some amount of time in the bottom 50%???

So at some point shouldn't DE be in the bottom 50%???

No. This isn't how it should work at all. I also don't think your approach to banding is quite correct.

DE are not atrocious and haven't been for a very long time. They're a capable army with help from secondaries. Like above Wracks could get tagged to even out the internal balance, but they don't need anything major when the secondaries are going to go away from their favor.

I guess it just depends on your situation.

I don't think for instance the death of Ad Mech (although they did well this weekend so maybe that was a list change requirement?) really improved anyone else's life. Sure, that was a point last year where I was sick of them - and I personally think their stupid buff on buff on buff mechanics are too complicated to be fun. But equally, its kind of lame for anyone who has such an army.

Admech supposedly did well, because they bullied the lower brackets, which raises questions about the role of brackets.

I'm not talking win rates, I'm talking position relative to others.

If 4 people run a race, the 1st place person is in the top 25%, the 4th place person is in the bottom 25%. If 40 people run a race, the top 10 placing runners are in the top 25% and the last 10 placing runners are in the bottom 25%.

DE have run a race every week and have nearly always ended up in the top 25% for the last 15 months.

Some other factions have run a race every week over the same 15 months and have nearly always ended up in the bottom 25%.

No faction should have a win rate of 25% (but we aren't talking about this) but more imortantly no faction should stay consistently in the top or bottom placing 25%.

DE have done that at the top. Necrons have spent a significant amount of time in the bottom 50% and a good amount of time in the bottom 25%.

There will always be a bottom placing 50% and bottom placing 25%. GW will never achieve perfect knife edge every faction has a 50% win rate balance. So the only fair imperfect balance system is that the bottom placing 50% should change over time. It hasn't been changing and if the points changes don't drastically shake things up they will have failed. DG or Space Marines or Necrons should have a long sustained period of placing better than DE or GK. The design philosophy should not be to try to get DG, SM, etc win rates closer to DE but never better than DE. Slam some buffs the way of the 9th edition codexes at the bottom of the pile.

There's a big difference between athletes finishing a race minutes from each other rather than seconds. The context of the wins matter.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Admech supposedly did well, because they bullied the lower brackets, which raises questions about the role of brackets.

Brackets shouldn't really change that.

If they are 0-4 after day 1 and end up 4-4 after day 2 they still playing a 1-4, 2-4 and 3-4 opponent, same as they would without brackets. Just from a smaller pool of players.

Its more a factor of small representation, where a few people performing above average has a big impact on the % then anything else.

Well, I guess we'll carry on!

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-june-8-2022/

So Tryanids are not quite as dominant as they were in early May, but they still seem to be the faction to beat. Tau, Drukhari and various Aeldari builds are getting placings, but the Nids are still holding firm. At an 85 player GT, for instance, Tyranids took the top 2 spots plus all but two of the remaining top 8.

For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about Armour of Contempt and Hammer of the Emperor, Astra Militarum and Space Marines aren't really making a splash. A madman with Black Templars, though, did win a GT so props to him. Sisters have a couple of placings as well.

I think we are all waiting for the upcoming season to see if fixes are on the way. Maybe instead of 10th Ed they just need to re-write all the books before the Drukhari paradigm shift?

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Well, I guess we'll carry on!

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-june-8-2022/

So Tryanids are not quite as dominant as they were in early May, but they still seem to be the faction to beat. Tau, Drukhari and various Aeldari builds are getting placings, but the Nids are still holding firm. At an 85 player GT, for instance, Tyranids took the top 2 spots plus all but two of the remaining top 8.

For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about Armour of Contempt and Hammer of the Emperor, Astra Militarum and Space Marines aren't really making a splash. A madman with Black Templars, though, did win a GT so props to him. Sisters have a couple of placings as well.

I think we are all waiting for the upcoming season to see if fixes are on the way. Maybe instead of 10th Ed they just need to re-write all the books before the Drukhari paradigm shift?

That was last weekend. Winners this week were Nids x 4, Tau x 3, DE, Knights, Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, Iron Hands, and Custodes. Nids still take up way too many top tables, but people are making progress given the circumstances ( on top of potential luck of the draw ).

Good catch. So not much really changed.