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But twitch chat is invisible to the players.

It should be allowed, IMHO, for spectators to freely discuss cheating/rules mistakes among themselves without player knowledge.

The fact that this isn't allowed is telling. Like rather than using it as a lesson a'la "looks like chat is right, don't do this at home kids" the stream hosts seem to say "it's fine, it's all fine, and any news to the contrary is a bannable offense"

Yeah, endlessly discussing potential rules violations or incorrect rulings is a key part of any spectator sport.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Yeah, endlessly discussing potential rules violations or incorrect rulings is a key part of any spectator sport.

Yep. Discussing whether or not the Immaculate Reception was actually legal or not will have gone on for fifty years by this Christmas.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Yeah, endlessly discussing potential rules violations or incorrect rulings is a key part of any spectator sport.

For once Karol equating 40k to sports would actually be appropriate.

 DominayTrix wrote:


There's a lot of people who will flame you for being a "rules lawyer." People will say "that's not the way its intended" when you enforce rules and it allows stuff like this to happen. Until GW tightens up their language so it is clear and consistent, this kind of stuff will continue to happen...

Yeah if 40k had a solid framework of rules, judge calls wouldn't be seen as bad. Take MTG for example, its got one of the most solid ruleset in any game i've played. No interaction isnt accounted for in it. So calling a Judge is second nature for players. I'm not saying cheating doesnt happen in MTG (it totally does) but at least players aren't shy to either A : call a judge or B: know the rules themselves to call their OPP on them misusing some rules to their advantage

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
But twitch chat is invisible to the players.

It should be allowed, IMHO, for spectators to freely discuss cheating/rules mistakes among themselves without player knowledge.

The fact that this isn't allowed is telling. Like rather than using it as a lesson a'la "looks like chat is right, don't do this at home kids" the stream hosts seem to say "it's fine, it's all fine, and any news to the contrary is a bannable offense"

That's not really how it goes. Talking about rules played incorrectly isn't actually banned on the stream. Constantly bringing it up, to the point there's no other discussion happening, is. This is in line with how a lot of TTG streams work. Experience shows it's the most effective way to deal with this sort of thing. There's nothing sinister about it.

Slipspace wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
But twitch chat is invisible to the players.

It should be allowed, IMHO, for spectators to freely discuss cheating/rules mistakes among themselves without player knowledge.

The fact that this isn't allowed is telling. Like rather than using it as a lesson a'la "looks like chat is right, don't do this at home kids" the stream hosts seem to say "it's fine, it's all fine, and any news to the contrary is a bannable offense"

That's not really how it goes. Talking about rules played incorrectly isn't actually banned on the stream. Constantly bringing it up, to the point there's no other discussion happening, is. This is in line with how a lot of TTG streams work. Experience shows it's the most effective way to deal with this sort of thing. There's nothing sinister about it.

Well, the way a lot of TTG streams that I watch work is totally different.

Usually, the person reading the chat reports what the chat is saying to the players (like the American TTT or Tabletop CP) and the players sort out the issue. This would essentially be the equivalent of calling a judge based on Twitch Chat, but is only okay in casual games, because apparently telling someone in a tournament game that they aren't following the rules is "interfering with the players" (yeah, no gak, the players aren't actually playing by the rules).

This *also* makes it so the chat can discuss other things, because the problem is corrected and they can move on.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Well, the way a lot of TTG streams that I watch work is totally different.

Usually, the person reading the chat reports what the chat is saying to the players (like the American TTT or Tabletop CP) and the players sort out the issue. This would essentially be the equivalent of calling a judge based on Twitch Chat, but is only okay in casual games, because apparently telling someone in a tournament game that they aren't following the rules is "interfering with the players" (yeah, no gak, the players aren't actually playing by the rules).

This *also* makes it so the chat can discuss other things, because the problem is corrected and they can move on.

And what if chat is wrong or they misunderstood something? Should the game get interrupted still?

On non-tournament streams like Titans the "host" will notify the players, but that's an environment where the players are interacting with the viewers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And what if chat is wrong or they misunderstood something? Should the game get interrupted still?

If the guy watching the stream sees that a bunch of people in chat are calling attention to something, the chance that they're all wrong and wasting time is considerably smaller than the chance that something has been misplayed.

 catbarf wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And what if chat is wrong or they misunderstood something? Should the game get interrupted still?

If the guy watching the stream sees that a bunch of people in chat are calling attention to something, the chance that they're all wrong and wasting time is considerably smaller than the chance that something has been misplayed.

That's being awfully generous to chat... Maybe the 40k niche is small enough that it has knowledgeable chat, but most chat would just pile on the first person to say something was wrong and spam that without a clue if it's actually wrong or not.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Well, the way a lot of TTG streams that I watch work is totally different.

Usually, the person reading the chat reports what the chat is saying to the players (like the American TTT or Tabletop CP) and the players sort out the issue. This would essentially be the equivalent of calling a judge based on Twitch Chat, but is only okay in casual games, because apparently telling someone in a tournament game that they aren't following the rules is "interfering with the players" (yeah, no gak, the players aren't actually playing by the rules).

This *also* makes it so the chat can discuss other things, because the problem is corrected and they can move on.

And what if chat is wrong or they misunderstood something? Should the game get interrupted still?

On non-tournament streams like Titans the "host" will notify the players, but that's an environment where the players are interacting with the viewers.

This is a fair point, if you stop the game every time some jabronie from chat misunderstands how pile-in moves work, you'd never get a full turn it.

It's even worse in streams where the players aren't mic-ed up because there's things like wobbly model syndrome or other perfectly acceptable on table fudging that happens between players gets called out as cheating, even when it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 catbarf wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And what if chat is wrong or they misunderstood something? Should the game get interrupted still?

If the guy watching the stream sees that a bunch of people in chat are calling attention to something, the chance that they're all wrong and wasting time is considerably smaller than the chance that something has been misplayed.

This is blatantly false. Have you ever seen a twitch chat? They spiral on incorrect interactions and rules all the time. I watch a Streamer for Hunt: Showdown and multiple times per stream he has to stop what he's doing to explain that chat is NOT correct about a bug/game mechanic interaction.

90% of people in any given stream chat are just parrots. If the initial person is wrong, the 100 people after him will be equally as wrong. The system isn't really condusive to self-correction.

Presumably, the judge can act as a filter for wrong calls.

The twitch host can talk to a judge directly before interrupting the players.

We aren't asking the twitch host himself to go "WAIT WAIT EVERYONE STOP CHAT IS SCARED AND CONFUSED" and wave his arms over the table frenetically.

Yeah, the judge on hand can easily know or check right there before needing to notify the players.

At any rate, the current result is that cheating is a rewarded behavior at a large number of Warhammer tournaments.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 DominayTrix wrote:


There's a lot of people who will flame you for being a "rules lawyer." People will say "that's not the way its intended" when you enforce rules and it allows stuff like this to happen. Until GW tightens up their language so it is clear and consistent, this kind of stuff will continue to happen...

Yeah if 40k had a solid framework of rules, judge calls wouldn't be seen as bad. Take MTG for example, its got one of the most solid ruleset in any game i've played. No interaction isnt accounted for in it. So calling a Judge is second nature for players. I'm not saying cheating doesnt happen in MTG (it totally does) but at least players aren't shy to either A : call a judge or B: know the rules themselves to call their OPP on them misusing some rules to their advantage

Most imporant thing is. That if you were caught at a medium or large event, bar changing passport and moving to another country, you will not be able to attened an even. Or at least not easily. In this case, and many other talked over on this forum from the past, the "cheater" has been one for years. To a certain level I admire the balls to cheat in one event and just waltz in to a next one a cheat again, although with different army. Here the person would be kicked out, branded with name and face, so everyone knew who the cheater was. Their "career" as a table top, possibly also related games too.
I have met or played vs a guy called Xaos. I don't play infinity. But I know his face and I know his name. If I ever see him at an event, first thing I do is to inform the Orgs that Xaos is trying to sign up.

So while the allegations of cheating by that Black Templars player are indeed fascinating, the numbers still say that Tyranids are on a level of their own. I imagine that points increases are coming for them.

Perhaps they just need to rewrite the early Codexes. Give Space Marine Lascannons D3+3 that ignore invuls and 3 MWs. Double-down baby!

Karol wrote:
[Most imporant thing is. That if you were caught at a medium or large event, bar changing passport and moving to another country, you will not be able to attened an even. Or at least not easily. In this case, and many other talked over on this forum from the past, the "cheater" has been one for years. To a certain level I admire the balls to cheat in one event and just waltz in to a next one a cheat again, although with different army. Here the person would be kicked out, branded with name and face, so everyone knew who the cheater was. Their "career" as a table top, possibly also related games too.
I have met or played vs a guy called Xaos. I don't play infinity. But I know his face and I know his name. If I ever see him at an event, first thing I do is to inform the Orgs that Xaos is trying to sign up.

Exactly. I was blown away when I saw that a player was able to get caught cheating on camera, confess to doing it, and then return to high-level competitive play after only a short ban. That kind of thing makes a joke out of "competitive" 40k, if you get caught cheating you should be banned for life. But between that and the insistence that nobody can play 40k perfectly, mistakes are part of the game, etc, it really makes you wonder how many other big-name players are also getting there by cheating.

That's not a 40k problem though, that's a community problem.

I do empathise that it is quite hard for TOs to enforce bans on people, especially when players have done their time. Particularly when those TOs are just individuals deciding to run events.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
Exactly. I was blown away when I saw that a player was able to get caught cheating on camera, confess to doing it, and then return to high-level competitive play after only a short ban. That kind of thing makes a joke out of "competitive" 40k, if you get caught cheating you should be banned for life. But between that and the insistence that nobody can play 40k perfectly, mistakes are part of the game, etc, it really makes you wonder how many other big-name players are also getting there by cheating.

I despise people who knowingly cheat, but IMO 6 month or 1 year bans are good for people who get caught cheating. Lifetime bans should be reserved for people who get caught cheating repeatedly, or of course for people who do things like throw hands over a rules dispute. If you make the punishment for cheating too draconian, it can create perverse incentives.

But yes, I get the impression that certain segments of the 40k community value perceived civility over sportsmanship in the way you describe.

Umbros wrote:
That's not a 40k problem though, that's a community problem.

I do empathise that it is quite hard for TOs to enforce bans on people, especially when players have done their time. Particularly when those TOs are just individuals deciding to run events.

This really. If there was some sort of professional 40k circuit that somehow got funded it might be different. When you have people spending a huge amount of time and money to host an event they generally don't want to get involved in drama because player X played a rule wrong, nudged a model (maybe) or was just generally unsportsmanlike.

Hecaton wrote:
If you make the punishment for cheating too draconian, it can create perverse incentives.

How's that? I guess you could try to catch your opponent cheating as a way to get them banned, but I can't think of any perverse incentive that would work unless there's actual cheating happening?

Tyel wrote:
When you have people spending a huge amount of time and money to host an event they generally don't want to get involved in drama because player X played a rule wrong, nudged a model (maybe) or was just generally unsportsmanlike.

This goes way beyond "maybe nudged a model". In the case I'm talking about the player in question was caught blatantly cheating on camera after having a reputation for previous (though less well documented) cheating incidents, confessed to doing it, received a temporary ITC ban, and was forced to apologize for cheating as a condition of being allowed to play again. There was no question about guilt, only what degree of punishment was appropriate. All a TO would have to do is refuse to let him enter their event but it seems like people want the attention from having a Big Name Player on their top tables more than they want a credible claim to being a serious competitive game.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
All a TO would have to do is refuse to let him enter their event but it seems like people want the attention from having a Big Name Player on their top tables more than they want a credible claim to being a serious competitive game.

Well I mean...its 40k. Thats like saying people don't want the drama side of pro wrestling because they want it to be seen as a serious competitive sport.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
How's that? I guess you could try to catch your opponent cheating as a way to get them banned, but I can't think of any perverse incentive that would work unless there's actual cheating happening?

Framing people for cheating becomes much more incentivized, and if it comes down to lifetime bans people may take "mercy" on people.

You want the punishment to be serious, but not like... severe to the point where people can go off the reservation over it.

Also, it needs to be clarified that if you misplay in such a way to gain an advantage, even if you weren't proven to be cheating or it was an honest mistake, that's still a game loss/loss of points/whatever. Just document it. It'll keep people more honest.

Hecaton wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:
How's that? I guess you could try to catch your opponent cheating as a way to get them banned, but I can't think of any perverse incentive that would work unless there's actual cheating happening?

Framing people for cheating becomes much more incentivized, and if it comes down to lifetime bans people may take "mercy" on people.

You want the punishment to be serious, but not like... severe to the point where people can go off the reservation over it.

Also, it needs to be clarified that if you misplay in such a way to gain an advantage, even if you weren't proven to be cheating or it was an honest mistake, that's still a game loss/loss of points/whatever. Just document it. It'll keep people more honest.

That's why it works best if there's a sliding scale. I have no issue with lifetime banning someone who is clearly cheating and there is ample evidence to show it and the type of cheating is beyond "forgetting" a rule here and there. A certain Chaos player springs to mind.

But that would be for the most serious cases, or repeat offenders. For most cases, shorter bans would work fine and I fully support the idea of penalties for misplaying your rules even in the case of an honest mistake. Those type of penalties should be fairly minor at first but also have the possibility of ramping up over time to catch those people who coincidentally keep getting rules wrong in their favour.

Slipspace wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:
How's that? I guess you could try to catch your opponent cheating as a way to get them banned, but I can't think of any perverse incentive that would work unless there's actual cheating happening?

Framing people for cheating becomes much more incentivized, and if it comes down to lifetime bans people may take "mercy" on people.

You want the punishment to be serious, but not like... severe to the point where people can go off the reservation over it.

Also, it needs to be clarified that if you misplay in such a way to gain an advantage, even if you weren't proven to be cheating or it was an honest mistake, that's still a game loss/loss of points/whatever. Just document it. It'll keep people more honest.

That's why it works best if there's a sliding scale. I have no issue with lifetime banning someone who is clearly cheating and there is ample evidence to show it and the type of cheating is beyond "forgetting" a rule here and there. A certain Chaos player springs to mind.

But that would be for the most serious cases, or repeat offenders. For most cases, shorter bans would work fine and I fully support the idea of penalties for misplaying your rules even in the case of an honest mistake. Those type of penalties should be fairly minor at first but also have the possibility of ramping up over time to catch those people who coincidentally keep getting rules wrong in their favour.

This. Like I said, the lifetime ban comment was about a player who was caught indisputably on camera cheating in a major way and confessed to doing it. No honest mistakes about a rule, no "maybe" about it, and not something you could frame someone for. Or there's the cases where a player "forgets" a rule in one game, gets corrected by the TO, and then promptly goes back to playing it incorrectly in their next game. The initial error gets the benefit of the doubt and shouldn't come with any permanent consequences but if you get corrected on something like that and then immediately ignore the correction as soon as the TO's back is turned you know perfectly well what you're doing.

And yeah, genuine mistakes work both ways. A player who is having genuine trouble keeping track of everything (40k is a complex game after all) is going to make mistakes in both directions. They'll think their model has two attacks instead of one because that's what it had last edition, but then they'll also forget that another of their units can re-roll charges and lose a game because of it. The "innocent mistake" justification stops being believable when you see the same people over and over again only making "mistakes" in their own favor.

 Sim-Life wrote:

CadianSgtBob wrote:
All a TO would have to do is refuse to let him enter their event but it seems like people want the attention from having a Big Name Player on their top tables more than they want a credible claim to being a serious competitive game.

Well I mean...its 40k. Thats like saying people don't want the drama side of pro wrestling because they want it to be seen as a serious competitive sport.

Drama in any form of wrestling is entertaining though. Cheating in w40k is only interesting, if you plan to learn how to cheat yourself or you are on top tables, care for winning and cheating happens when you play.

An kirgis not shaking a hand of tadji wrestler is more intersting.

And yeah, genuine mistakes work both ways.

End results matter though. Can anyone make a mistake sure. In sports there are injuries, even deaths that sometimes happen. But if someone would break the fingers of all of his opponents, or at least all opponents in games that give qualification points. Then no amount of explanation that it just somehow happens would help them.

I mean, it'd be nice if there was a public database somewhere with a record of these incidents - heck, it is something I would expect the ITC to have, if they want their circuit to have any integrity.

I would be very weary of a public database given how many insane overreactors there are online.

So have we found a good reason yet why Twitch streamers streaming a game cannot talk to a judge quietly if they or their chat see suspected cheating?

Or are we back to "the twitch streamers care more about kumbaya and proving everything is fine in the House of 40k than they are with helping to ensure free and fair competition"

 Dysartes wrote:
I mean, it'd be nice if there was a public database somewhere with a record of these incidents - heck, it is something I would expect the ITC to have, if they want their circuit to have any integrity.

Without a membership system akin to what the DCI was for MtG that catches banned people on event sign-up, I doubt that sanctions would have any serious impact on anyone but the worst cheaters.

 catbarf wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Worth noting that the guy who played BT made several favorable rules mistakes.

It blows my mind that the game is so damned complicated that even highly-competitive players have to ask questions like 'do you have an ability that does X', and a cheater can cheat repeatedly across multiple games in a variety of ways without anybody noticing at the time.

Yeah, it blows mine too, tyranids (tomorrow another faction) winning way too much is one thing, but the bloat is what really puts any new player off I think.

Anyone know of people being able to start 40K these days ? The investment is so massive, the balance so poor, who in their right mind would want to start now ?

For tounaments you have the clock issue if you start going through your opponents book(s) to find the rule they are telling you about so... The game is so bad atm for comp play. Just... So... Bad... I have gone fully over to Mtg for the moment, until they nerf my nids (then i am back to 40k). The rule bloat issue will still be there though...