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Leaving aside rumors for a moment, GW previewed Squats with no mention of World Eaters or Guard. Then, while they kept previewing Squats, they added World Eaters to the lineup with no mention of Guard. Later on after a leak forced their hand, they added a quick Guard preview in acknowledgment.
Seems to me like GW wants to tell us something about the order in which they'd like to release those armies.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would I want my Guard to have an "Elite Feel". I guess this is the paradigm shift that started with Daemons.
"Who cares what you want?" - GW, 2022
I have similar thoughts to endlesswaltz123, provided it's true. Horde armies are stupidly expensive because the price break horde unit boxes get compared to elite units is paltry compared to the difference in points between horde and elite units. If you want or need 500 points of Guard infantry, you'll be paying so much more than you would for 500 points of Marines. I can well see that reflected in lower model sales for horde armies and consequently a mandate from accounting to fix Guard rules to get better sales out of those models. Since it's GW there won't be lowered prices, so the only way to not make customers feel like they're spending three times more on their army than other players is to increase performance of the individual models.
Price increases are a constant with GW, but they've been particularly egregious in the last three or so years. It feels like GW is getting to the point where they have to address that in some way. Not through lowered or at least frozen prices, obviously.
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Why is the rum always gone?
Wild speculation here, and something I personally do not agree with at all if it were to be correct, they are purposely trying to reduce the model requirement of guard, specifically the infantry as they find it is overwhelming for new players.
Yeah that's basically it, same reasoning behind S5 Termagants and T5 Ork boyz. This edition has been all about handing out buffs rather than reduce point costs and increasing army size.
To be fair I'm not sure what the ideal solution is. Under previous editions new players were often expected to acquire scores of basic infantry for some factions, which would be a big turn off. Even if GW made the models cheaper (lol) a lot of folks just starting out with cheap ~5pt guardsmen would likely end up with demoralising piles of shame that never get painted. Easier to sell them on 50 guardsmen than 70+ guardsmen I guess.
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Geifer wrote: Leaving aside rumors for a moment, GW previewed Squats with no mention of World Eaters or Guard. Then, while they kept previewing Squats, they added World Eaters to the lineup with no mention of Guard. Later on after a leak forced their hand, they added a quick Guard preview in acknowledgment.
Seems to me like GW wants to tell us something about the order in which they'd like to release those armies.
It's hard to read too much into that because their hand was forced with World Eaters too. It's possible that GW didn't intend to preview Berserkers that early, and I'd bet money that Angron wasn't meant to be shown at all. Their original plan was probably to save him as the final teaser at the end of NOVA, once all the new Squats stuff was revealed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 07:46:31
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would I want my Guard to have an "Elite Feel". I guess this is the paradigm shift that started with Daemons.
What, you don't want primaris guardsmen? How will you cope with all the rules bloat and finish a game within five hours if you have more than 30 models on the table? And how will you keep up when GW continues the eliteness creep and introduces a whole line of even-more-elite-than-primaris marines?
Wild speculation here, and something I personally do not agree with at all if it were to be correct, they are purposely trying to reduce the model requirement of guard, specifically the infantry as they find it is overwhelming for new players.
I can't remember the last time I saw an infantry-heavy Guard army. It's usually just bare-minimum infantry a butt-load of tanks.
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Geifer wrote: Leaving aside rumors for a moment, GW previewed Squats with no mention of World Eaters or Guard. Then, while they kept previewing Squats, they added World Eaters to the lineup with no mention of Guard. Later on after a leak forced their hand, they added a quick Guard preview in acknowledgment.
Seems to me like GW wants to tell us something about the order in which they'd like to release those armies.
It's hard to read too much into that because their hand was forced with World Eaters too. It's possible that GW didn't intend to preview Berserkers that early, and I'd bet money that Angron wasn't meant to be shown at all. Their original plan was probably to save him as the final teaser at the end of NOVA, once all the new Squats stuff was revealed.
The leak came later. I'm referring to the chainaxe render and accompanying statement at Warhammer Fest when GW presented the Chaos Marine codex and had to acknowledge World Eaters somehow, since they weren't going to be in the codex. That was scheduled.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Gibblets wrote: Legit this is terrible news. Because GW doesn't understand how to play IG they were shafted by the mission design of 9th. Then the same happless stooges bumble the codex multiple times. Which leads to a 6yr wait between codex's which puts right at the end of 9th. The sentence 'written with 10th edition in mind' is bone chilling to me. I was around when the 5th ed codex was dropped 'with 6th edition in mind' and after the next 2 codex's which were for 6th came out (5-7months) the IG book was already getting squashed by anything already decent or new. What followed was 4+yrs of a terrible book ill designed with a fuzzy idea of what 6th was going to be. The same thing WILL happen here. Oh and the only things worth taking will be the new kits.
Indeed. What is worse is it means no reset with 10th edition, since 9th has pretty much killed 40k play in the club, I see Heresy or 'other' being the options going forward for the majority of my fellow club go-ers.
Aecus Decimus wrote: What, you don't want primaris guardsmen? How will you cope with all the rules bloat and finish a game within five hours if you have more than 30 models on the table? And how will you keep up when GW continues the eliteness creep and introduces a whole line of even-more-elite-than-primaris marines?
Clearly this "more elite" Guard army necessitates the removal of squad-borne heavy weapons, something Guard have only had since their original plastic kit...
I'm a big fan of Scions and Solar Auxilia, but that doesn't mean the rest of guard needs to follow suit. To remove the option to have "horde" guard, considering that they are known as the "Hammer of the Emperor" due to their sheer infantry numbers alongside mass vehicular support would really reduce them to just a bunch of carry ons to a vehicle based army, which sounds like a watered down non-melee, shooty only knight army with tangential infantry units. There's so few real horde armies now in 40k, so keeping that aspect would make guardsmen stand out and having 20 man infantry man squad boxes like they did in the past would make it more palatable for some people, I mean they can do it for Mortek Guard in AoS, I don't think it's that far fetched to do it for guard.
Guard as a horde army is a thing from the days past, where you could buy 20 Cadians for 15 pounds and not y'know, their current four times higher price.
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If memory serves, vehicle heavy guard was an early rumor, and we've obviously heard elite guard at some point. I wonder if either (or both) of those were the essences of the rumored rejected test codices...
Also, elite guard seems at odds with dropping veterans. Back in 5th I used to take chimera mounted vets, which tended to keep my model count relatively low
I think the "more elite feel" is a necessity borne out of the current design paradigm of the game. Its hard to keep guard as a cheap horde of faceless mooks when you are compelled to stack 5+ layers of rules on top of their datasheet between strategems, army wide special rules (presumably the orders system), subfaction buffs, warlord traits, relics, and all the other gak they hand out to armies these days.
At that point, theres just too much going on and too much capability for a player to reasonably feel like their guardsmen are anything other than elite operators with a big tool kit of capabilities.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
I'm a bit confused. Wouldn't the (assumed) fact that the IG codex was re-written four time directly contradict the strongly held Dakka belief that GW doesn't playtest their rules? Not a jibe, just unsure how to deconflict the two.
I'm honestly okay with no HW in the infantry squad, assuming they somehow increase the survivability of HWS. Having two SW in a squad would actually be nice in some situations (though I'm sure they'll have to be different, per the new "box content only" paradigm).
More elite is fine... in theory
But it won't feel elite if they're still t3, 5+. They'll just die.
But at the same time, i don't know what the game's baseline stat profile is anymore. It was always something of joke that it was supposed to be baseline humans (definitely was back in Rogue Trader), but was actually space marines.
Now? Fethed if I know. So many are all over the place now.
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: Guard as a horde army is a thing from the days past, where you could buy 20 Cadians for 15 pounds and not y'know, their current four times higher price.
Exactly, my old Guard army was a drop troop regiment and had 2 infantry platoons because they were reasonably affordable. Not only is it that absurd price now, but what is worse is that it's that price for the same old kit I bought the first time round. No thanks.
No wonder everyone makes their guard an armoured company.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think the "more elite feel" is a necessity borne out of the current design paradigm of the game. Its hard to keep guard as a cheap horde of faceless mooks when you are compelled to stack 5+ layers of rules on top of their datasheet between strategems, army wide special rules (presumably the orders system), subfaction buffs, warlord traits, relics, and all the other gak they hand out to armies these days.
It's also hard to do that when the faction identity is supposed to be "the professional soldiery of the Imperium", where even the Conscripts are supposed to be moderately trained...and you somehow are outnumbering things like Cultists and being outmaneuvered by them at every turn.
At that point, theres just too much going on and too much capability for a player to reasonably feel like their guardsmen are anything other than elite operators with a big tool kit of capabilities.
It's not just that. The game itself has shifted. We have two factions(Chaos and Genestealer Cult) that are effectively supposed to be "peasant rabble rising up".
It's hard to square what are supposed to be trained soldiers/professional killers when they're just on par with Johnny from the block grabbing an autogun and running amok, and when Johnny has big friends in the form of CSM with him or is somehow behaving with more tactical acumen than your well-trained forces are.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/08/31 13:25:58
Olthannon wrote: No wonder everyone makes their guard an armoured company.
Or buys 3rd party, or 3d prints, or purchases recasts...
I used to use paper circles and rectangles, now I use TTS. Admittedly, TTS fails to capture something about playing in person even when playing in person only involves paper circles
As to the Heavy Weapon Teams leaving the infantry squads, I'm hoping that GW has brought platoons back and will allow Heavy Weapon Squads to be taken within those platoons, thus freeing up the Heavy Support slots more. That said, I've always played mechanized guard, so I probably wouldn't take platoons due to the points sink it would involve (that was my experience back in 5th at least).
Here's the hoping we're all being horribly misled and GW announces at NOVA that Guard is the next codex
chaos0xomega wrote: Also true. GW struggles hard in establishing a "baseline" and then working around it.
It's especially hard when you just keep effectively copy/pasting the same book for decades.
It's a difficult line to walk I would say. Change nothing and people will whinge you haven't changed anything. Or change a lot and people will whinge you have changed too much. (How dare they remove HWTs etc)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 14:16:09
KillerAngel wrote: I'm a bit confused. Wouldn't the (assumed) fact that the IG codex was re-written four time directly contradict the strongly held Dakka belief that GW doesn't playtest their rules? Not a jibe, just unsure how to deconflict the two.
You're assuming it was rewritten for balance rather than say, maximizing the sales potential.
Guard was always the easiest army to sub in 3rd party stuff from, easier now than ever between 3rd party stuff and 3d printing.
So devaluing all our existing armies and tying it more to Cadians and other name brand units makes sense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 15:01:23
KillerAngel wrote: I'm a bit confused. Wouldn't the (assumed) fact that the IG codex was re-written four time directly contradict the strongly held Dakka belief that GW doesn't playtest their rules? Not a jibe, just unsure how to deconflict the two.
You're assuming it was rewritten for balance rather than say, maximizing the sales potential.
Guard was always the easiest army to sub in 3rd party stuff from, easier now than ever between 3rd party stuff and 3d printing.
So devaluing all our existing armies and tying it more to Cadians and other name brand units makes sense.
I don't completely disagree (sales trumps all), but what you stated isn't new by any stretch. So wouldn't they go into draft #1 with that intent in mind? Would they really need four revisions to solidify an IP favorable theme?
I wouldn’t take to much credence on what someone means by saying elite feel.. I mean they just might be sayin. That because of the new kaskrin, larger tank, roughriders etc model push.. I doubt basic troop guardsman are going away… and if the codex was rewritten multiple times all that really matters is how specific datasheets fit into the army and how specific regiment traits support those datasheets. So I don’t think the elite feel comment matters much.
I have(had) the disposable income to purchase 70 plastic DKoK one way or another for an average price of £28 per 10. This was my calculation to make 5x10 man squads, 1 command squad and 1 HW squad and bit to convert commanders etc. So £196 for a platoon, I'd like another also tbh, but then... £196 for roughly 400pts is really hard to swallow, not to mention it was an absolutely mammoth task to paint.
If that platoon cost was close to £120, I think I'd do it again, but yeah, it's pricy for a horde style army... However that is how I want my Krieg to be, I want 100+ men charging over no mans land.
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My personal take on the "more elite" feel is that with the loss of Consripts (which would need to cost 2-3 pts to be remotely playable in the current meta) and with veterans and special weapon teams gone. It will be the Elite FOC Cadia/Catachan/Krieg/Tanith squads that will have an abundance of buffs on them. The regular Infantry Squad will take over the functional role of Conscripts (read: Operation Human Shield). I don't see vehicles getting more elite though tbh, if anything they will get cheaper, because even if they change all D6 to 3+D3 the damage output from everything, save the Manticore, is so little, they still would need a cost reduction of about 20% to just get their points back.
I have my doubts that the Codex went back 4 times because it was too strong though. I am way to cynical to believe this and find the idea that they have no fething clue what to make of them far more appealing. Save for removing options for Regiments of course, because feth you and your 30 years of background.
We're not losing Conscripts because they want Guard to be "more elite". We're losing Conscripts because they don't make specific Conscript miniatures. "More elite" is just an excuse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 23:23:29
H.B.M.C. wrote: We're not losing Conscripts because they want Guard to be "more elite". We're losing Conscripts because they don't make specific Conscript miniatures. "More elite" is just an excuse.
Yeah, GW's "No model, no rules" policy strikes again! Anything that isn't remotely a distinct separate kit or option in a box must be purged in their fanatical eyes. At this point they might as well just rebrand conscripts as child soldiers to justify it as a separate kit, like Captain Brannigan in Futurama having his own "Children's Brigade"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/01 04:59:11
