Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The no double weapons is a huge irritation.

Any chance of people dropping that out of spite?

Well yes, but it would depend on the mentioned squad what weapons I would allow to begin with tbh. The rumours currently have it, that weapon choices are "free", still I'd only issue simple weapons to any regular infantry squad. That is Flamers, GLs, Snipers, Heavy Bolters, Mortars, Autocannons. Maybe 1 model is lucky enough to carry a Melter, but then the squad earned that in a previous game dew to some heroic feat. Only Grenadiers and Command Squads would have the right in my book to carry Melters, Plasma and Las Cannons. So I might not be the best lackmus test. Everyone has a right to play their army the way they want of course.

Free weapons, like Hammer of the Emperor, is another example of abandoning even the pretence of writing a proper set of rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Free weapons, like Hammer of the Emperor, is another example of abandoning even the pretence of writing a proper set of rules.

I'm agreeing with that mostely. I don't like matched play based on power levels, because it gives you rather limitations than liberties, since I can not save on equipment in order to bring more quantity. So naturally I despise the idea coming into the regular points. I still don't understand GWs focus to granularize everything towards 5pts steps, that is Yugioh level of stupidity where everything is in 500 steps, just so that numbers are larger.

I do like power level in campaigns though, but then those are narrative based. Same with Kill Team, but there the rules and capabilities are a lot more balanced than in 40K.

Overall, I can only refer to the video from Mordian. I actually wanted that veterans, SWS and CS are condensed. But not like this, I feel like they massacred the idea of what the destinction between untrained, regular and veteran levels are and instead just gave us data sheets for the plastic boxes they have laying around, with a focus on, make the new stuff extra good. This all screams terrible design paradigma to me.

The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

What is a horde to you? Basic guardians with no heavy weapons are 90pts, which yes, can be taken in 20s, but ultimately you can still take fewer total due to costing more. You can take a brigade with max infantry squads (assuming whiteshields/conscripts are gone or not 20 man units) for a mere 540 pts. That's 1/4 of an army for 90 fully armed guys no other horde army can do that.

I think platoons of 20 guys will be back, or MG mentioned it on another video, not really sure 100%

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point?

They will have different rules. The Kriegs get Transhuman and the Catachans will have exploding melee attacks.

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

No models = no rules, this is the flipside of it where there are models so they must have rules.

None of those units are specifically called Astra Militarum Infantry Squad on the box, so they get datasheets of their own (ala captain with bolt rifle, captain in gravis armour, captain in phobos armour etc), with unique weapons and rules for each (blood of kittens link a few pages back goes into detail on what they get).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Free weapons, like Hammer of the Emperor, is another example of abandoning even the pretence of writing a proper set of rules.

I figured we reached that point when GW started refusing to credit it's writers and artists.

Dudeface wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

What is a horde to you? Basic guardians with no heavy weapons are 90pts, which yes, can be taken in 20s, but ultimately you can still take fewer total due to costing more. You can take a brigade with max infantry squads (assuming whiteshields/conscripts are gone or not 20 man units) for a mere 540 pts. That's 1/4 of an army for 90 fully armed guys no other horde army can do that.

I thought it was in the word: a large group of people. Regardeless of the point price (you cannot compare point to point unless you bring stats, saves, abilities, and basic squad equipment to table) the fact is that brigade level you can just place 90 IG vs 180 Guardians, or 180 Orks, or 180 Necrons... and so on.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

What is a horde to you? Basic guardians with no heavy weapons are 90pts, which yes, can be taken in 20s, but ultimately you can still take fewer total due to costing more. You can take a brigade with max infantry squads (assuming whiteshields/conscripts are gone or not 20 man units) for a mere 540 pts. That's 1/4 of an army for 90 fully armed guys no other horde army can do that.

I thought it was in the word: a large group of people. Regardeless of the point price (you cannot compare point to point unless you bring stats, saves, abilities, and basic squad equipment to table) the fact is that brigade level you can just place 90 IG vs 180 Guardians, or 180 Orks, or 180 Necrons... and so on.

M.

Guard don't pay basic squad equipment, that's the point. You cannot bring those numbers of infantry with equipment for those armies and have anything else of note in the force. 180 guardians as an example is 1620 points before heavy weapons.

Maybe it's time guard wasn't just an endless group of meatbags whose only purpose is to die easily, maybe the image now should be here's my 90 core troops, armoured support and my veterans, representing the full guard.

Of all the complaints the fact you can only fit 90 guys in the troops slot has to be the weirdest.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Free weapons, like Hammer of the Emperor, is another example of abandoning even the pretence of writing a proper set of rules.

I figured we reached that point when GW started refusing to credit it's writers and artists.

This gets me crazy. In any other medium not crediting the authors would get global animosity and strikes verywhere. We should held GW more responsible for this donkey-cave move.

I’m cool w free wargear. I like seeing medics, voxes, banners on the tabletop.
Talking about mordian glory and the leaks.. I don’t know if these guys are following leaks well but there are a ton of flavor beyond datasheets that differentiates guard units.. discount on strategems for krieg or catachan or Cadian.. like fire on my position being only 1cp for krieg.. unique models like bombadiers etc. my main concern for the codex is we lost a lot of the special characters. I hope yarrik comes back.

Garrac wrote:

This gets me crazy. In any other medium not crediting the authors would get global animosity and strikes verywhere. We should held GW more responsible for this donkey-cave move.

Until one of their writers or artists sues them in an EU court, there's not much that can be done. Getting GW fans to actually protest something is a lost cause, it's be like crack addicts boycotting their dealer because of a price hike.

Dudeface wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

What is a horde to you? Basic guardians with no heavy weapons are 90pts, which yes, can be taken in 20s, but ultimately you can still take fewer total due to costing more. You can take a brigade with max infantry squads (assuming whiteshields/conscripts are gone or not 20 man units) for a mere 540 pts. That's 1/4 of an army for 90 fully armed guys no other horde army can do that.

I thought it was in the word: a large group of people. Regardeless of the point price (you cannot compare point to point unless you bring stats, saves, abilities, and basic squad equipment to table) the fact is that brigade level you can just place 90 IG vs 180 Guardians, or 180 Orks, or 180 Necrons... and so on.

M.

Guard don't pay basic squad equipment, that's the point. You cannot bring those numbers of infantry with equipment for those armies and have anything else of note in the force. 180 guardians as an example is 1620 points before heavy weapons.

Maybe it's time guard wasn't just an endless group of meatbags whose only purpose is to die easily, maybe the image now should be here's my 90 core troops, armoured support and my veterans, representing the full guard.

Of all the complaints the fact you can only fit 90 guys in the troops slot has to be the weirdest.

And Guardians hit on a 3+ with a 4+ save. With a better base weapon...

It's great that you want guard to be a hardened core of troops backed up by the might of the armor corps but that's not what horde means. If you think that horde stops at 90 let me tell you that 180+ bodies was considered the absolute minimum, and during 9th Ed those 90 dudes with t3 and a 5+ save have been like wet tissue in front of your average army no matter how cheap they are.

To reiterate, do you want to play a combined arms guard? Cool, add armor to your heart's content. But without conscripts, and 12 squads of 10 at best (double batt.) guard cannot horde while elite armies can so it's not a weird complain.

M.

So I've seen it mentioned that platoons are back in some form, but has it been revealed what this actually means?

I will grant you that some kind of platoon structure in our TO&E would help with the issue, but I'm tired of losing because the basic troop unit of the guard melts like butter under the sun of the Sahara when something stronger than a squad of grots (or other IG) shoots, or charges it.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
The more leaked info I heard, the less the new codex interests me. So according to the latest video from Mordian Glory we are going to have a Cadian squad, a Krieg squad, a Catachan squad... And all will have the same rules, and stats but different load outs. What's the point? Probably keywords that allow the player use stratagem X, or stratagem Y. Just what we needed GW.

Also it's kind of annoying that elite armies like Eldar can out horde a horde army because GW keeps limiting the basic squad to 10 guards.

Great job GW.

M.

What is a horde to you? Basic guardians with no heavy weapons are 90pts, which yes, can be taken in 20s, but ultimately you can still take fewer total due to costing more. You can take a brigade with max infantry squads (assuming whiteshields/conscripts are gone or not 20 man units) for a mere 540 pts. That's 1/4 of an army for 90 fully armed guys no other horde army can do that.

I thought it was in the word: a large group of people. Regardeless of the point price (you cannot compare point to point unless you bring stats, saves, abilities, and basic squad equipment to table) the fact is that brigade level you can just place 90 IG vs 180 Guardians, or 180 Orks, or 180 Necrons... and so on.

M.

Guard don't pay basic squad equipment, that's the point. You cannot bring those numbers of infantry with equipment for those armies and have anything else of note in the force. 180 guardians as an example is 1620 points before heavy weapons.

Maybe it's time guard wasn't just an endless group of meatbags whose only purpose is to die easily, maybe the image now should be here's my 90 core troops, armoured support and my veterans, representing the full guard.

Of all the complaints the fact you can only fit 90 guys in the troops slot has to be the weirdest.

And Guardians hit on a 3+ with a 4+ save. With a better base weapon...

It's great that you want guard to be a hardened core of troops backed up by the might of the armor corps but that's not what horde means. If you think that horde stops at 90 let me tell you that 180+ bodies was considered the absolute minimum, and during 9th Ed those 90 dudes with t3 and a 5+ save have been like wet tissue in front of your average army no matter how cheap they are.

To reiterate, do you want to play a combined arms guard? Cool, add armor to your heart's content. But without conscripts, and 12 squads of 10 at best (double batt.) guard cannot horde while elite armies can so it's not a weird complain.

M.

The army with cheaper per model hordes better. By the time eldar runs out of points guard keeps adding bodies.

You used to be able to bring 55 men as a single troops choice. 90 is pathetic by comparison.

GW introduced the platoon structure to the Guard to sell more models let Guard armies show off massed infantry within the confines of the FOC.

Current 40k may have reduced the FOC to a level of triviality, but Guard have never been the same since platoons went away. We can still take tank squadrons, so why not platoons?

gungo wrote:
I’m cool w free wargear. I like seeing medics, voxes, banners on the tabletop.

They should be on the table because they're worth taking, not because they're free.

Points exist to show the relative worth of upgraded weapons and equipment, and so that increasing a unit's power and/or utility comes with a cost.

Two identical units but one has a vox should not cost the same amount of points if one has greater utility than the other.

 Miguelsan wrote:

And Guardians hit on a 3+ with a 4+ save. With a better base weapon...

It's great that you want guard to be a hardened core of troops backed up by the might of the armor corps but that's not what horde means. If you think that horde stops at 90 let me tell you that 180+ bodies was considered the absolute minimum, and during 9th Ed those 90 dudes with t3 and a 5+ save have been like wet tissue in front of your average army no matter how cheap they are.

To reiterate, do you want to play a combined arms guard? Cool, add armor to your heart's content. But without conscripts, and 12 squads of 10 at best (double batt.) guard cannot horde while elite armies can so it's not a weird complain.

M.

Whats extra fun is guard *used* to have the ability to pull both options. They sort of do now with Scions as troops, though the limitations on how you field them and getting your regimental bonuses makes for some hoops to jump through.

Compare to older editions:
3.5 dex - you can either take equipment doctrines, or take stormtroopers as troops, and boom, the army is now looking more like a group of hardened veterans.
5th, 6th - Veterans are troops, and you can pick several options to customize them up to your needs.
And on the horde side, just the fact that a single troops choice was *minimum* 25 bodies if you went regular infantry, Just making a casual glance at the 3.5 dex since its closest, 1 platoon command squad and 2-5 infantry squads for 25-55 bodies for a single slot.

Edit: Answering to Tneva82.

True except for the Detachment limitations. I don't know what will be in the Elite slot with veterans, and SWSs gone, but currently once you've hit 12 squads of guards you are out of slots to add more IG bodies, I guess that you could add HWTs, Ogryns, and the new RRs.

M.

 Miguelsan wrote:
I will grant you that some kind of platoon structure in our TO&E would help with the issue, but I'm tired of losing because the basic troop unit of the guard melts like butter under the sun of the Sahara when something stronger than a squad of grots (or other IG) shoots, or charges it.

M.

That's what the supposed "purist" Guard players want though?

Did you not see the gakstorm kicked up when I suggested a 4+ save would be appropriate for Guard Infantry Squads modeled ala the Cadians/DKoK?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miguelsan wrote:
Edit: Answering to Tneva82.

True except for the Detachment limitations. I don't know what will be in the Elite slot with veterans, and SWSs gone, but currently once you've hit 12 squads of guards you are out of slots to add more IG bodies, I guess that you could add HWTs, Ogryns, and the new RRs.

M.

Kasrkin and Scions are both supposed to be in Elites. The "alternate squad choices" ala the Shock Troops and Death Korps are Troops.

Didn't guard used to have a rule that allowed them to bring back destroyed squads as reinforcements? Maybe that would be a good compromise between wanting a horde and only having 90 infantry?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Free weapons, like Hammer of the Emperor, is another example of abandoning even the pretence of writing a proper set of rules.

Ah but you're forgetting that the good items are limited to 1/squad.

Don't need to balance wargear if you just force people to take the crap stuff anyway.

Army wide it was Krieg assault brigade, for conscripts you could use the Valhalan special character IIRC.

M.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
I will grant you that some kind of platoon structure in our TO&E would help with the issue, but I'm tired of losing because the basic troop unit of the guard melts like butter under the sun of the Sahara when something stronger than a squad of grots (or other IG) shoots, or charges it.

M.

That's what the supposed "purist" Guard players want though?

Did you not see the gakstorm kicked up when I suggested a 4+ save would be appropriate for Guard Infantry Squads modeled ala the Cadians/DKoK?
.

Wanting the guards to be squishy at the individual side doesn't preclude wanting to have enough of them so you still have enough to secure an objective when you charge in.

M.

Voss wrote:
Its been the standard since... 2nd? 3rd?
The time to complain about fluffyness was nearly 30 years ago- seems completely irrelevant to the codex at hand.

Funnily enough the Forge World lists (Krieg, Elysians, unsure about LatD) used to be very stingy with the special weapons in command squads.

Keel wrote:

Voss wrote:
Its been the standard since... 2nd? 3rd?
The time to complain about fluffyness was nearly 30 years ago- seems completely irrelevant to the codex at hand.

Funnily enough the Forge World lists (Krieg, Elysians, unsure about LatD) used to be very stingy with the special weapons in command squads.

The DKoK Command Squads were limited to 2 specials (in any combination) but the Elysians had no restrictions at all. To the point where the Elysian Company Command Squad could take 4 Ground Scanner things too as they were in the special weapons section.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Miguelsan wrote:
I will grant you that some kind of platoon structure in our TO&E would help with the issue, but I'm tired of losing because the basic troop unit of the guard melts like butter under the sun of the Sahara when something stronger than a squad of grots (or other IG) shoots, or charges it.

M.

That's what the supposed "purist" Guard players want though?

Did you not see the gakstorm kicked up when I suggested a 4+ save would be appropriate for Guard Infantry Squads modeled ala the Cadians/DKoK?
.

Wanting the guards to be squishy at the individual side doesn't preclude wanting to have enough of them so you still have enough to secure an objective when you charge in.

M.

But there's the issue.

We literally have a unit that should have been "squishy at the individual side". It's called "Conscripts".

There was nothing wrong with wanting Guardsmen to see an actual bump to being the accomplished soldiery that they're supposed to be.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Didn't guard used to have a rule that allowed them to bring back destroyed squads as reinforcements? Maybe that would be a good compromise between wanting a horde and only having 90 infantry?

IIRC that was a special rule for Chenkov and only applied to Conscripts (plus possibly a more general strat in 8e, cba to confirm that atm). Personally, I'd rather we have infantry that can actually do something beyond just respawn forever, as that feels more like a Tyranid thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You used to be able to bring 55 men as a single troops choice. 90 is pathetic by comparison.

GW introduced the platoon structure to the Guard to sell more models let Guard armies show off massed infantry within the confines of the FOC.

Current 40k may have reduced the FOC to a level of triviality, but Guard have never been the same since platoons went away. We can still take tank squadrons, so why not platoons?

gungo wrote:
I’m cool w free wargear. I like seeing medics, voxes, banners on the tabletop.

They should be on the table because they're worth taking, not because they're free.

Points exist to show the relative worth of upgraded weapons and equipment, and so that increasing a unit's power and/or utility comes with a cost.

Two identical units but one has a vox should not cost the same amount of points if one has greater utility than the other.

This is utter nonsense.. extra bits and bobbles is almost always going to be worse then just having more bodies… it’s either overpowered force multipliers or barely useful or useless.. and in general rarely worth the points. It’s almost impossible to quantity each models unique gear and make everything useful and point efficient enough not to be worse then having more bodies… most of the time those bits and bobbles like vox are also situational and not always needed… even w the current leaked rules and vox has multiple decent reasons to take them they are still not worth taking at 5ppm for every infantry unit because they are still situtational and it’s better to just take another guardsmen instead… putting points on everything isn’t some form of holy grail form of balance.. not everything needs points.

The reasons horde was reduced in numbers on every army in 40k was to speed up gameplay.. GW made every horde army cheap units substantially more expensive at the same time… this isn’t an attack on guard platoons.