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How do!

Another gloriously subjective thread. And I’m only going to define it by the title. And of course Dakka’s usual rules.

The title is very self explanatory.

My entry? Flyers. As a whole.\

I really, really like the Flyer models currently available. Whilst few, if any, have only slightly more grasp of physics than a Flat Earther? They all look really, really cool. With the possible exception of the Stormtalon, which is way too wee.

But my word they’re so poorly realised on the table. With the possible exception of….the Stormtalon. At least it looks (to me anyway) like a particularly heavily, if not outright unfeasibly heavily, armed Attack Helicopter.

No I’ve not confused myself. It’s the only exception in both cases of my example.

Now. Your turn. What model, or group of models do you love the design, concept, look of, but hate the rules for?

There are no objective truths in this thread. Other than I Am Great.

What do you mean “no that’s definitely subjective, you tosspot”?

That’s just rude. But possibly factually accurate.

There’s a lot of models I think shouldn’t be in 40K, considering the scale. That includes flyers, super heavy tanks and Knights. If GW really wanted to have them they should rerelease a 6mm version of the game which includes these great models.

I’m not sure that kind of discussion is the intention of your thread, so I’ll pick another example:

Ogryns. I’ve had a soft spot for these guys since 2nd edition but GW has never really found a way to make them work rules wise. I love the current models but don’t see why anyone would use them. Especially since Bullgryns became a thing there seems little point of having Ogryns in an Imperial Guard army.

For me its both, rules for 40k are gak right now.
And the new models being put out IMO are equally gak.

The reason being is GW for some reason, is WAY over designing their models, to the point every single one feels like im painting a character. They are littered with gribbly bits all over the model that just dont need to be there, case and point, look at the new HH preator models in the mox, they just have way to much....crap, all over their model that does not need to be there.

I like the Reiver models, but their rules are very lacklustre.

Custodes Wardens, Sisters of Silence, The Entire Assassin Lineup, and DeathStrike Missile.

Fortifications. Any, unaligned or faction specific.
I love this type of stuff.
But thier current deployment rules render most nearly to even completely unplayable.

The rule changes in the latest GT pack help a little bit. But not nearly enough.
Beyond that? They're not general matched play rules. They are locked to that GT pack. If you aren't using that pack....

I can't remember an edition where the (Chaos) Land Raider was considered useful. But it's a nice looking brick.
I guess it's a problem with the concept, though. It has long range antitank weapons, but is a tough Transport that wants to drive closer. So on the table it is hardly possible to fulfil both of these roles.

Unfortunately, applies to a lot of Ork range atm.

Grots are a joke ruleswise even though they have so much character as a unit. Likewise, for boyz and pretty much all our walkerz and infantry that aren't kommandos, killa kanz or meganobz are rules doodoo.

Burna and Blitza Bombas both are rad but are hindered by being completely outdone by Wazbom Blastajets.

I don't think Ogryn have had good rules at any point in the history of the game. Bullgryn have their uses, but the humble Ogryn? Nope.

Ogryn Bodyguards are also not too hot, as their version of the Bodyguard rule involves them taking Mortal Wounds and not using the defensive stats they can purchase, while simultaneously being more expensive than the units they are guarding. Amusingly enough it is probably more effective to take them without armor at all and kit them out for an offensive role, taking advantage of their character keyword to protect them from most incoming fire. Hopefully next codex makes them better, though more likely they'll just be quietly removed. Sad considering I converted up 3 of them via smashing bits from the Ogryn and the Ogre kits together.

 Grimskul wrote:
Unfortunately, applies to a lot of Ork range atm.

Grots are a joke ruleswise even though they have so much character as a unit.

Despite the rules limitations, Grots get alot more entertaing if/when you can field the full suite of 6 units (+ the Grot Bomb Launcher) they have beyond just troops & Kanz.

Reivers are perfect for this conversation. They fulfill zero roles that can't be found elsewhere and don't even do said roles well. Morale doesn't matter in this game either, and their knives are flimsy as feth.

Skull Tacticool Marines are rad though and anyone saying otherwise lacks taste.

Corsairs and Ynnari, GW decided to just gak on their rules.

For once, Fezzik made a reasonable point - the Deathstrike Missile has to win this, hands down.

And Tacticool is never actually cool - if it were, it wouldn't need to add "tacti" to the start...

SM transports and tanks.

Land Raider and Rhino are Iconic.
Primaris vehicles have lots o' guns.


But its better by far to footslog my infantry....and to use my vehicles as scenery/dust traps.

Granted, I've essentially bailed out after 8th, but mine would be Lictors.

Deathstrike qualifies as well, but other than "missile fires, all enemies up to 3 boards over die", I don't know how it could be balanced and stay true to the lore.

The game is basically this for me.

Baneblades if I have to be specific.

All of the "Relic" Chaos vehicles. Now, don't get me wrong, some of them have quite functional and even "good" rules. But they completely removed all of the rules that actually made them feel like they belonged to Chaos. Machine Malifica, gone. Legacies of Ruin, gone. Ark of Unnameable Horror, Hellforged Reactor, Fueled by Hatred, Dark Fury. All just gone. Even the Chaos weapons like Butcher Cannons and Soulburners were stripped out. Now they're just the same as loyalist vehicles, but with "Chaotic" names tacked on here and there, but with the same rules. Just different names. It shows how little time they spent on Chaos in the Imperial Armour Compendium.

Twin auto canon dreadnought. I love how it looks, only non termintor unit out of GK, which I really like. Rules are legend, which makes the unit unplayable.

Karol wrote:
Twin auto canon dreadnought. I love how it looks, only non termintor unit out of GK, which I really like. Rules are legend, which makes the unit unplayable.

That is not true. It's the environment & people you play in/with that makes Legends unplayable.

Canoptek Tomb Stalker. For such a big menacing model, the rules are so tame

ccs wrote:

Karol wrote:
Twin auto canon dreadnought. I love how it looks, only non termintor unit out of GK, which I really like. Rules are legend, which makes the unit unplayable.

That is not true. It's the environment & people you play in/with that makes Legends unplayable.

Yup, or anything not bleeding-edge.

Necron Destroyer Lords (or Lokhust Lords or whatever stupid name they're going by these days) certainly come to mind.

The advantages they once boasted have gradually been whittled away, to the point where there's really no role they fulfil that isn't fulfilled better by other units. Even their trademark speed has been reduced to a pathetic 8".

Imagine if you bought a Bike for a SM Captain just to upgrade his speed from 6" to 9". Oh and the bike comes with no weapons. And his aura is replaced with one that only works on biker units. And he gets -1WS and -1BS. And a bunch of stratagems no longer work on him. etc. etc.


Then there's Dark Eldar. The entire HQ section, sans Drazhar, suffers from this. All have great models (or at least had great models at some point, until they were "upgraded" with newer ones), but their rules are universally awful. Take the Archon - each one is a tactical mastermind with access to a personal armoury of the best possible equipment. This is represented by a choice of butter knives and two different water pistols, complimented by a bog-standard aura that doesn't even work in the transports that form the core of the faction. Then you have stuff like Lelith being a master duellist, whose abilities are best suited to fighting hordes. Sigh.

There's also Scourges, which have fantastic models but can't escape the fact that, in true GW style, they're mobile models touting a selection of weapons that all demand they remain stationary.

Mandrakes have models that (IMO at least) hold up exceptionally well, given their age. However, while they're currently useful for scoring some secondary objectives, they've never really managed to capture the fluff of being terrifying assassins that appear from an opponent's shadow. At most they tend to appear far away from any shadows and then sort of faff about for the rest of the game.

Lastly, Beasts. Cool concepts (price tags notwithstanding) but always come across like half their rules are missing. Oh, and on top of being generally bad, you also need a 40pt babysitter if you want to include them at all.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The game is basically this for me.

Yep. 40k fluff and miniatures have a strong hold on me. Almost Zero desire to play the actual ruleset though.

I typically don't mind the rules except for the fact that every profile now involves throwing buckets of dice, but modelwise I don't like the vast majority of anything that was released after 7th edition, and something (some SM stuff, flyers, superheavies and some superhero) from 6th and 7th as well.

Oh, found one: Wulfen. They used to be murder machines and extremely tough models (2W with 5+++ and possible 3++ when everything was 1W except for TWC who were 2W). Now they're neither, which really disappoints me. The models are one of the few reasons that made me started to collect something related to SM.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
... and DeathStrike Missile.

Yeah that's a good pick.

As someone who has 15 Kanz...I love the model itself, but the rules for killakanz are terrible.

They are too slow to get into CC, they aren't great when they get there and shooting wise...they bring little to nothing to the table that can't be done by other units significantly cheaper.

A Kan with a Rokkit is 50pts, a Deffkopta with TWIN rokkitz is 50pts

Besides the obvious fact that a Kopta is 8' faster a turn and has auto 6' advance the kopta also averages 4 shots and 1.33 hits with its Rokkitz, the Kan averages 2 shots and 1 hit. In CC the Deffkopta averages 4 hits at S5 AP-1 The kan averages 1.5 hits at S8 AP-3 3dmg.

Durability wise its got +1 wound and +1 Save but again, its 2.3x slower so its likely to suffer catastrophic losses before even getting into range with its klaw, where as the kopta has a good chance at a turn 1 charge.

I love the Kanz, and I really want them back in the fray but at the moment they just aren't worth taking :(

For Dark Angels:
-Ravenwing Ancient: I love his sculpted banner, but he doesn't do anything a Ravenwing army needs.
-Asmodai: Basically a worse Interrogator, because he can't be a Master of Sanctity and can only use one Litany per turn (although he knows two in addition to Litany of Hate). I like his model, and I want to like him, but he's too many points for not enough utility.
-Reivers: I know other Marine players have chimed in with these already, but they are a perfect example of cool models with mediocre to bad rules.
Space Wolves:
-Krom Dragongaze: Possibly my favorite Wolf Lord model (other than Primaris Ragnar), but his rules are so bad you wouldn't want to run him even in a friendly game.
-Stormfang/Stormwolf: Personally I love these models but dear sweet Baby Jesus they cost too many points.
-Venerable Dreadnought: I can't think of many reasons why you'd want to run one of these; thankfully the excellent kit lets you build one of the character Dreads (Bjorn or Murderfang) or a Wulfen Dread instead.
Sisters of Battle:
-Exorcist: These tanks are iconic to the faction, but high points cost and multiple nerfs (first to its stats in the 9th edition book, then to indirect fire in the Balance Dataslate) have relegated these to shelf duty mostly.
-Castigator: Another cool-looking tank IMO, but its rules are pretty bad.
Imperial Knights:
-Knight Valiant: I love the look of Dominus knights in general, but the Valiant just doesn't do enough to justify its points cost.

I nominate all of 40k

But Flyers is a good one as it is and will be true in every edition, you simply can't write functional rules for something moving supersonic above an area the size of a soccer field.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I nominate all of 40k

But Flyers is a good one as it is and will be true in every edition, you simply can't write functional rules for something moving supersonic above an area the size of a soccer field.

And yet FW did write functional flyer rules back in 4th(? think it was 4th).....

Thankfully the 9th edition DG codex has only one entry for this; the Noxious Blightbringer. I think we can all agree its a gorgeous model, with rules that give it no clear purpose instead having 2 or 3 incredibly minor buffs that would all want to be applied in different situations.
Instead he needs to be the DG version of a chaplain, ringing out different tunes on his bell to provide debuffs to nearby enemy units.