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And luckily it's not a melee unit. Of course this general misconception that anything that moves faster than an infantryman is a melee unit is one of the core reasons people are so bad at evaluating units and factions.
lord_blackfang wrote: And luckily it's not a melee unit. Of course this general misconception that anything that moves faster than an infantryman is a melee unit is one of the core reasons people are so bad at evaluating units and factions.
TBH, it MAKES for a good melee unit if you give it the right support staff for basically all legions.
An HQ (either centurion or Praetor) and an apothecary with power weapons and other goodies may very well make for a nice little assault option.
Also m16 multi meltas are m16 multimeltas. As i see it, this unit is a bully unit that has target dependant equipment for shooting and or requries significant investment for melee.
Alternativly as you brought up, 2 legions can field melee jetbikers.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
lord_blackfang wrote: And luckily it's not a melee unit. Of course this general misconception that anything that moves faster than an infantryman is a melee unit is one of the core reasons people are so bad at evaluating units and factions.
TBH, it MAKES for a good melee unit if you give it the right support staff for basically all legions.
An HQ (either centurion or Praetor) and an apothecary with power weapons and other goodies may very well make for a nice little assault option.
Also m16 multi meltas are m16 multimeltas. As i see it, this unit is a bully unit that has target dependant equipment for shooting and or requries significant investment for melee.
Alternativly as you brought up, 2 legions can field melee jetbikers.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Time to place bets on how much cheaper the plastic squad will be compared to the resin ones. I'm going conservative myself, no more than 20% less.
Well.
So far elites and troops came with double the MSU in a box, this is the first time we get an msu unit. Size wise 3 of them seem about to be a rhino?
I'd say it's probably the price range as a sicarian- terminator kit, with a chance of being cheaper.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Time to place bets on how much cheaper the plastic squad will be compared to the resin ones. I'm going conservative myself, no more than 20% less.
That seems way pessimistic to me. HH plastic in general has been priced marginally cheaper than 40k. 3 Custodes jetbikes currently cost exactly what a resin Scimitar cost. These are bit bigger so maybe a box of 2 for the same money, maybe 3 for a little more. So 50% off at least.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Tsagualsa wrote: I find the rather static poses of the imperial jetbikes rather fitting. After all, they're not the sleek racers of the Eldar or the techno-sorcery of the Necrons, but 'flying bricks' that stay afloat due to pure force, ridden by a two hundred kilo chunk of muscle that wears a fridge as an armor. Their pose reminds me of paintings like 'Death Dealer', of lazily circling sharks that prepare to snap out in a single decisive blow, of the single dragoon in the distance that has spotted you and will call up his comrades. They're still menacing, but in a way that is different from the thrill-kill-high-speed eldar.
I think this is really well put I would expect that the best a rider armed with a chainsword can usually do is a passing sweep at something somewhere below him. But let's remember that fighting in melee from a bike is ultimately very silly and noone does it in real life. Even putting guns on bikes didn't work very well. So arguing about whether one pose or another is realistic is rather pointless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/20 10:17:04
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Time to place bets on how much cheaper the plastic squad will be compared to the resin ones. I'm going conservative myself, no more than 20% less.
That seems way pessimistic to me. HH plastic in general has been priced marginally cheaper than 40k. 3 Custodes jetbikes currently cost exactly what a resin Scimitar cost. These are bit bigger so maybe a box of 2 for the same money, maybe 3 for a little more. So 50% off at least.
£40-£45 is my guess.]
Of course, every Heresy kit so far (well, the plastic ones for absolute clarity) appeals to every Legion player, so one imagines the sales volumes are why we’re getting seemingly better prices than 40k.
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Snord wrote: Marine bikers have always had this stance. The sense of motion is conveyed by the massive great engine in front of the rider.
A brick does not convey a sense of motion. A pose does.
It's just a different style bike. Eldar and Dark Eldar have the forwards leaning Kawasaki motorcycles, while Astartes lean back in these crusing style Harley Davidsons with big guns. For more dynamic charging bikes, the Scimitar is not it, you need the Bullock pattern.
Eldar used to have a laid back style too.
But it just looks weird. Even Harleys, people don't ride them laid back with almost entirely straight legs unless they've done some significant (and probably highly uncomfortable to ride) mods to them.
And supposedly Space Marines are still supposed to be fighting from their bikes, but the straight legs, the foot position significantly forward of the hand position, the tilted back torso, it makes them look like they'd struggle to move let alone swing a sword or an axe.
I don't think they need to be cafe racer style poses like the Dark Eldar or new Eldar, but something like a stock Harley rider pose, and then with some alternate legs that let you pose them leaning over one way or the other to swing their sword, aim their pistol, thrust with their lance, etc.
I find the rather static poses of the imperial jetbikes rather fitting. After all, they're not the sleek racers of the Eldar or the techno-sorcery of the Necrons, but 'flying bricks' that stay afloat due to pure force, ridden by a two hundred kilo chunk of muscle that wears a fridge as an armor. Their pose reminds me of paintings like 'Death Dealer', of lazily circling sharks that prepare to snap out in a single decisive blow, of the single dragoon in the distance that has spotted you and will call up his comrades. They're still menacing, but in a way that is different from the thrill-kill-high-speed eldar.
To me, it's just too far into the realm of weirdness for me to like. There's lazy, then there's lying down on the job, they don't look like they'll be doing any "snapping" of decisive blows when all they can do is awkwardly flail their weapons off to their sides (and not the good flailing ).
Look at Harley riders, that sort of pose would be fine, they don't need to be perched atop the jet bikes like the eldar, they don't need to come across as agilely dancing in top of their bikes.
You mention Death Dealer, a quick google image search shows him hunched over and passive, but not laid back awkwardly like these dudes are.
But at least having the ability to swing their sword as opposed to just awkwardly holding it off to the side would go a long way for me. The dude with the gun is the worst, he looks like he's about to fire a flare gun into the air without looking where it's going
Of course each to their own, if you like them you like them, that's fine, personally I think they've skidded past "lazily menacing" to "too laid back to fight".
The melee weapon thing is true, but then that's more a critique of the basic premise than specific to this model Anything but polearms would of course be extremely unpractical or flat-out impossible to use from these bike, and i don't think that cool poses would give you enough suspension of disbelief to not notice that. Maybe it would look okay with long-hafted weapons, like chain-/power axes, mauls or hammers. I agree that the standard poses look a little too static and silly, it remains to be seen what can be done with a quick torso or arm swap.
Yeah, I'd be curious to see what alternative poses might come out. To my eye, the problem is that there's no space for them to move in the saddle, which would prohibit any pose that looks like they could bring their melee weapons to bear. But, maybe I'm wrong. To me it's been a problem with how GW modelled biker models going back a long way when maybe casting limitations dictated the rider pose? They're reminisce of a bad chopper that stretches the rider out but isn't actually comfortable nor easy to ride.
Yeah, I'd be curious to see what alternative poses might come out. To my eye, the problem is that there's no space for them to move in the saddle, which would prohibit any pose that looks like they could bring their melee weapons to bear. But, maybe I'm wrong. To me it's been a problem with how GW modelled biker models going back a long way when maybe casting limitations dictated the rider pose? They're reminisce of a bad chopper that stretches the rider out but isn't actually comfortable nor easy to ride.
I think that general problem goes way, way back to the days when 'the way it's done' for cavalry models was to have standard horses in plastic that were common to a lot of kits, and model the riders and stuff like barding as add-on metal parts. That pretty much dictated the pose of the riders to make sure that they could fit the standard horse, and so it was. That's how GW did character models and stuff like light cavalry for a long time. That design approach translated to bikes, and lead to the bikes themselves being designed in a way that facilitated this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/20 12:40:39
I reckon the jetbike kit will be 3 x identical sprues, one bike + rider per sprue? If so, would result in a lowish price
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To my eye, the problem is that there's no space for them to move in the saddle, which would prohibit any pose that looks like they could bring their melee weapons to bear.
I think, much like with the current Outriders, simply moving the seat up and turning the 'pilot' into a 'rider' would fix the issue.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: To my eye, the problem is that there's no space for them to move in the saddle, which would prohibit any pose that looks like they could bring their melee weapons to bear.
I think, much like with the current Outriders, simply moving the seat up and turning the 'pilot' into a 'rider' would fix the issue.
Do you mean so that they're standing up like in a chariot or dog sled? That could work - space marines should not need a seat anyway, they could just lock out their leg armour.
Do you mean so that they're standing up like in a chariot or dog sled? That could work - space marines should not need a seat anyway, they could just lock out their leg armour.
Do you mean so that they're standing up like in a chariot or dog sled? That could work - space marines should not need a seat anyway, they could just lock out their leg armour.
Something like this
Add some more armour over the hole in front of the feet and you're good to go, not a bad look.
I'm looking forward to stealing some posing ideas for these models. Both to add some more dynamism to them, as well as to get rid of the clear base stand.
I like that there are chainswords in scabbards mounted on the bikes. I was thinking of trying to give one the primaris white scar chainsword from the upgrade kit, but a curved blade and a straight scabbard don't really gel well together
Do you mean so that they're standing up like in a chariot or dog sled? That could work - space marines should not need a seat anyway, they could just lock out their leg armour.
Something like this
Yeah, something like that, I think the peg shouldn't be tilted downwards though, still have it tilted slightly up or maybe just flat by also rotating the ankle.
But yeah, doing it this way would allow you to ever so slightly straighten the leg on one side only, which would shift the rider on the saddle and lean him over a bit, then give him a gun and it'll look like he's leaning out to shoot at someone, or give him a sword/axe/lance and it'll look like he's bracing ready to whack someone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/20 15:56:23
Racerguy180 wrote: I'd assume the forward controls would be altitude & rudder. How else would you control the z-axis?
Potentially fed from the Power Armour itself? Think it, and it’s done.
Yeah, i'd say they do the controlling via MIU/armour interface and have the manual controls only for emergency use and to have a convenient hardpoint to hold on to.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Time to place bets on how much cheaper the plastic squad will be compared to the resin ones. I'm going conservative myself, no more than 20% less.
That seems way pessimistic to me. HH plastic in general has been priced marginally cheaper than 40k. 3 Custodes jetbikes currently cost exactly what a resin Scimitar cost. These are bit bigger so maybe a box of 2 for the same money, maybe 3 for a little more. So 50% off at least.
Probably not two, since the minimum squad size is three.
Agamemnon2 wrote: Time to place bets on how much cheaper the plastic squad will be compared to the resin ones. I'm going conservative myself, no more than 20% less.
That seems way pessimistic to me. HH plastic in general has been priced marginally cheaper than 40k. 3 Custodes jetbikes currently cost exactly what a resin Scimitar cost. These are bit bigger so maybe a box of 2 for the same money, maybe 3 for a little more. So 50% off at least.
Probably not two, since the minimum squad size is three.
The 40k Custodes Jetbikes come 3 to a box and cost 50€, i guess that's about where these will land.
lord_blackfang wrote: And luckily it's not a melee unit. Of course this general misconception that anything that moves faster than an infantryman is a melee unit is one of the core reasons people are so bad at evaluating units and factions.
TBH, it MAKES for a good melee unit if you give it the right support staff for basically all legions.
An HQ (either centurion or Praetor) and an apothecary with power weapons and other goodies may very well make for a nice little assault option.
Also m16 multi meltas are m16 multimeltas. As i see it, this unit is a bully unit that has target dependant equipment for shooting and or requries significant investment for melee.
Alternativly as you brought up, 2 legions can field melee jetbikers.
How is the apothecary tending to the wounded when he is separated from the squad riding a jetbike?
lord_blackfang wrote: And luckily it's not a melee unit. Of course this general misconception that anything that moves faster than an infantryman is a melee unit is one of the core reasons people are so bad at evaluating units and factions.
TBH, it MAKES for a good melee unit if you give it the right support staff for basically all legions.
An HQ (either centurion or Praetor) and an apothecary with power weapons and other goodies may very well make for a nice little assault option.
Also m16 multi meltas are m16 multimeltas. As i see it, this unit is a bully unit that has target dependant equipment for shooting and or requries significant investment for melee.
Alternativly as you brought up, 2 legions can field melee jetbikers.
How is the apothecary tending to the wounded when he is separated from the squad riding a jetbike?
Really fast hands - in another life he would have made a mint as a close-up magician in vegas.
"Three months? I'm going to go crazy …and I'm taking you with me!"
— Vala Mal Doran
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Emperors children "jetbike medics" are probably just the ones carrying the squads drugs stash on their bike.
My guess is what technically happens is the ones he "saves" are ones that get temporarily knocked off their bikes with minor wounds. Or his bike can gravlock onto another persons to keep bikes close and at same speed while he works.
Would be cool to see some jetbike style apoth backpack in style of fabius's chirugeon that can reach over to next bike though.
I would expect that the best a rider armed with a chainsword can usually do is a passing sweep at something somewhere below him. But let's remember that fighting in melee from a bike is ultimately very silly and noone does it in real life. Even putting guns on bikes didn't work very well. So arguing about whether one pose or another is realistic is rather pointless.
