Horus Heresy / 30K N&R

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**Matrindur**

Prices for this week:
Melee upgrades are the same price as the ranged weapon upgrades

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Nice.

I’m never gonna say GW stuff is cheap, but the Heresy upgrade kits are pretty good value.

Ooh. This also means lots of new toys for Necromunda. Because every 28mm infantry kit and upgrade is a Necromunda kit.

**Sotahullu**

37€? Whoa that is much cheaper then I thought.

**lord_blackfang**

I suppose it does mean they have managed to cram all that stuff in the same sprue footprint as the ranged weapons, which is impressive.

**Snord**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes the original was definitely neon green. I still use the Hellstrom template as a rule for long cuts in plasticard.

Yes, I misremembered the colour. Another sign of advancing age, I guess

I found my orange standard templates, but there is no sign of the Apocalypse versions.

**Moopy**

FINALLY x23!

Hopefully the website doesn't crash next weekend.

**YodhrinsForge**

Snord wrote:
I don't think releasing a slew of tanks during the initial stages of the 2nd edition of the game was a bad idea at all. For many people, the Heresy-era vehicles are big part of the attraction of WH30k, but the fact that they were only available in resin was a major turn-off. I agree that infantry units tend to dominate most lists, but remember that the people who actually play are only part of the customer base, and there are plenty of customers buying the models just to build and paint them. GW probably wanted to tap into that demand - and start to reduce FW's resin vehicle output. The issue was that there was a need for models for other basic units that was not being met; in fact, for a while the only thing they seemed to be releasing was minor variations on existing vehicles (usually only involving a replacement sprue). I would question whether there is actually more money for them in tank kits; I would have thought that a sprue of infantry with 5 poses is unlikely to be any more expensive to get into production than a tank, but infantry kits probably sell in exponentially greater numbers.

Re bolded, that was rather the point; making the tanks in plastic makes sense in absolute terms, but if your potential for production or release slots is very limited then it surely makes *more* sense to transition the units people will be buying most of. That we're apparently going to get a second year of mostly vehicles genuinely boggles the noggin. And as for the collector/painter side, ehhhhh, I don't buy it. Assuming the game has no relevance to that market is one of the key mistakes of the Kirby management era; most of the people buying models but not playing games still use the hypothetical possibility that they might play a game to justify their purchases and so still buy complete armies. The number of people just buying a model to built it, paint it, and put it in a display case like you would with an Airfix or Gunpla kit isn't nonexistent, but I highly doubt it's genuinely significant.

**Dawnbringer**

YodhrinsForge wrote:
Snord wrote:
I don't think releasing a slew of tanks during the initial stages of the 2nd edition of the game was a bad idea at all. For many people, the Heresy-era vehicles are big part of the attraction of WH30k, but the fact that they were only available in resin was a major turn-off. I agree that infantry units tend to dominate most lists, but remember that the people who actually play are only part of the customer base, and there are plenty of customers buying the models just to build and paint them. GW probably wanted to tap into that demand - and start to reduce FW's resin vehicle output. The issue was that there was a need for models for other basic units that was not being met; in fact, for a while the only thing they seemed to be releasing was minor variations on existing vehicles (usually only involving a replacement sprue). I would question whether there is actually more money for them in tank kits; I would have thought that a sprue of infantry with 5 poses is unlikely to be any more expensive to get into production than a tank, but infantry kits probably sell in exponentially greater numbers.

Re bolded, that was rather the point; making the tanks in plastic makes sense in absolute terms, but if your potential for production or release slots is very limited then it surely makes *more* sense to transition the units people will be buying most of. That we're apparently going to get a second year of mostly vehicles genuinely boggles the noggin. And as for the collector/painter side, ehhhhh, I don't buy it. Assuming the game has no relevance to that market is one of the key mistakes of the Kirby management era; most of the people buying models but not playing games still use the hypothetical possibility that they might play a game to justify their purchases and so still buy complete armies. The number of people just buying a model to built it, paint it, and put it in a display case like you would with an Airfix or Gunpla kit isn't nonexistent, but I highly doubt it's genuinely significant.

Maybe, but I'll be the proverbial exception that proves the rule. I've dropped quite a bit from covid onwards having come back into 40k after an absence of at least a decade (I think 4th Ed was last time I played). It was admittedly Primaris that got me back into it (well, better proportioned marines). I've built up over a 100 Blood angels, plus Necrons, Admech, Tyranids, and a company's worth of new Cadians. But I've never really expected to play any games, at least using GWs rules. They are too all over the place to want to bother keep up, so if I ever did play it would be with friends using some home brew version based on Bolt Action. I've got it 95% to model and paint, with the remote chance I may roll some dice over some beers with friend or two I subject to my nerdiness.

**JWBS**

Gamers have always been the secondary market, some people won't accept this because it's not what they do/see, but that's how it is.

**Lord Damocles**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Spesh the templates. Kinda bonkers such an essential play tool hasn’t be available for a while.

Remember when GW decided that Templates were such a bad game design choice that they had to be removed from 40K?

Pepperidge Farms remembers.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I’m still torn on that one.

Templates are fun to use, but in the past have lead to mindless bickering over whether a model is or isn’t hit, what’s a partial etc.

Rules introduced largely removed that, specifically partials.

But they could also slow down play, as particularly, ugh….dilligent opponents would insist on micro-measuring their movement and spacing to maximise coherency, thus minimising the number of hits a given template could inflict.

Not so bad on something like Marines where you’ve relatively few models. But when someone insisted on doing it with Nid or Ork Infantry Hordes? It took ages.

If you’re gonna include them in your rules though? Gonnae make them available, eh?

**Gadzilla666**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m still torn on that one.

Templates are fun to use, but in the past have lead to mindless bickering over whether a model is or isn’t hit, what’s a partial etc.

Rules introduced largely removed that, specifically partials.

But they could also slow down play, as particularly, ugh….dilligent opponents would insist on micro-measuring their movement and spacing to maximise coherency, thus minimising the number of hits a given template could inflict.

Not so bad on something like Marines where you’ve relatively few models. But when someone insisted on doing it with Nid or Ork Infantry Hordes? It took ages.

If you’re gonna include them in your rules though? Gonnae make them available, eh?

Sounds more like an "opponent problem" than a "rules problem".

**JNAProductions**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m still torn on that one.

Templates are fun to use, but in the past have lead to mindless bickering over whether a model is or isn’t hit, what’s a partial etc.

Rules introduced largely removed that, specifically partials.

But they could also slow down play, as particularly, ugh….dilligent opponents would insist on micro-measuring their movement and spacing to maximise coherency, thus minimising the number of hits a given template could inflict.

Not so bad on something like Marines where you’ve relatively few models. But when someone insisted on doing it with Nid or Ork Infantry Hordes? It took ages.

If you’re gonna include them in your rules though? Gonnae make them available, eh?

Sounds more like an "opponent problem" than a "rules problem".

Eh... Spacing your models isn't an opponent being rude or unsporting. It's playing the game to the best of your ability.

The bickering I can agree is generally not sporting, but templates do have issues.

**Jadenim**

Yeah, much as I enjoyed the tactile experience of using the templates, 40K just works better without them.

Doesn’t seem to cause the same issues in Necromunda, but I guess that’s because you’re only dealing with a handful of models, so it’s more of a measuring device than a “how badly can I punish your horde” device.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Another Thursday.

Do we reckon joy? Or a third disappointment in a row?

**Matrindur**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another Thursday.

Do we reckon joy? Or a third disappointment in a row?

Well if they show anything it will surely be the LI Karacnos and Krios as they were already due 2 weeks ago.
But at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they won't show anything today again. Two weeks without an article and this soon after starting them up again likely means something went wrong internally and there is a reason why they can't show anything.
At least not getting a sentence at the end of an article that HH Thursdays are paused again should mean that its only temporary.

**SamusDrake**

Kill Team and Underworlds are out of the bag now, so they probably will resume the articles today.

**Xirix**

https://x.com/warhammer/status/1851978212970045679

Disappointment probably.

**YodhrinsForge**

JWBS wrote:
Gamers have always been the secondary market, some people won't accept this because it's not what they do/see, but that's how it is.

If this comical nonsense were true, GW would be a figurine company. If the game didn't exist, the models wouldn't even be made let alone sell in the quantities they do - again, even most "collectors" build *armies*, and in their minds the fact they *could* use the models to play a game is how they justify buying them. This notion that there's a silent army of people out there buying a completely random(from the perspective of the game & IP) selection of individual models purely to paint and put on a shelf and that they're actually the majority of GW's sales was literally the thinking behind all of Kirby's dumb decisions that saw him replaced as CEO.

Jadenim wrote:
Yeah, much as I enjoyed the tactile experience of using the templates, 40K just works better without them.

Strongly disagree. Quicker or simpler are not synonyms for better, turning template weapons into "just roll more dice" was one of the worst Shrimplification abstractions they introduced with the nustyle rules.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I’m allergic to Twitter, can anyone offer a potted version?

**YodhrinsForge**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m allergic to Twitter, can anyone offer a potted version?

HH Thursday is a no-go for the second week running, despite previous claims from the Warhammer birb account to the contrary.

**Not Online!!!**

YodhrinsForge wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m allergic to Twitter, can anyone offer a potted version?

HH Thursday is a no-go for the second week running, despite previous claims from the Warhammer birb account to the contrary.

Bad company organisation in regards to communication. Even if it were a No-Go day a competent company would have a filler article or two at the ready.

**Shadox**

They did have filler... for the Thursday two weeks ago...

**Gadzilla666**

Xirix wrote:
https://x.com/warhammer/status/1851978212970045679

Disappointment probably.

ARRRRGHHHH......throwing us into Elon Musk hell. No thank you.

**StudentOfEtherium**

YodhrinsForge wrote:
JWBS wrote:
Gamers have always been the secondary market, some people won't accept this because it's not what they do/see, but that's how it is.

If this comical nonsense were true, GW would be a figurine company. If the game didn't exist, the models wouldn't even be made let alone sell in the quantities they do - again, even most "collectors" build *armies*, and in their minds the fact they *could* use the models to play a game is how they justify buying them. This notion that there's a silent army of people out there buying a completely random(from the perspective of the game & IP) selection of individual models purely to paint and put on a shelf and that they're actually the majority of GW's sales was literally the thinking behind all of Kirby's dumb decisions that saw him replaced as CEO.

lmao. GW is a models company through and through. the reason why warhammer exists at all is because they had a bunch of models that they wanted to sell, and they figured rules and a bespoke game would do a better job of selling them. they have always been a primarily model-first company, and that has never changed

**SamusDrake**

I'm guessing then theres a preview show coming very soon and they're saving it all for that, possibly due to the Fuegan leak which has left them a bit short.

**Matrindur**

In the comments they said next week on the 7th there will be another HH Thursday so lets hope its true this time because they also said today would have one earlier this week before saying it was a miscommunication now.
https://x.com/warhammer/status/1851990412648435877?t=0izPCSJVTcTtHf5QQoDH6Q&s=19

I really don't know why they can't at least show the LI Karacnos/Krios. They already accidently partly showed them in another article and they have rules in the book releasing in two days.

**MarkNorfolk**

They might be wanting to hold off on other reveals until The Rise of the Dark Mechanicum is officially out, I guess.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Which is Saturday, thanks for the reminder!

**Tavis75**

MarkNorfolk wrote:
They might be wanting to hold off on other reveals until The Rise of the Dark Mechanicum is officially out, I guess.

It seems strange not to preview the previously seen tanks before the book release. Tin foil hat time now, but one thing I'm wondering is, maybe they're resin but they don't want to reveal that until after the release of the other Mechanicum stuff?