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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

This is the first edition change after a major overhaul. Once does not make a trend. Specialist games seem to be mostly free of that cycle.

Necromunda has been the churniest churn-fest that ever churned!

But, yeah, let's all Wait And See for three years...

There are different types of churn. Necromunda and LI have, let's say, DLC churn, where the rules stay the same but content was cut and you have to buy 6 books just to get the full game as it was in the 90s.

I really like how concise the special rules are. Right now: Why say something in a sentence when you can say it in a paragraph?

Glad to see some of the special rules melding into stats; at times I had to make unit index cards with them all so I wouldn't forget them in a battle. Honestly, I still mess up Rending vs Breaching; my ghost will tell everyone that will/will not listen. ugh.

We're only seeing a small selection of weapons. While heavy weapons get to move and melta is strong, it'll be up to good general to figure out how to counter them. I have a feeling there's going to be a certain amount of "nerf them" tactics when it comes to putting debuffs on units. No Sunder on Lascannons. yay!

Overall more movement is good. I like the tactical choices in CCW now.

Thumbs up so far.

Heavy weapons moving prooobably means the game won't be playable without ITC ruin corners everywhere.

Or heavy weapons are going to be going up in points, and if vehicles always count as stationary for heavy weapons that makes them comparatively more viable.

It certainly helps things like Predators be more than lumbering pillboxes, even if the weapons don’t always count as stationery. Which should help them compare favourably with Dreadnoughts.

Another thing? If, and right now it is only an if due to lack of information, the damage chart is gone? Tanks may get a significant boost.

Consider something with a tasty turret gun, but due to points constraints, Heavy Bolter sponsons. Right now, a single weapon destroyed takes out the turret weapon first. Hence I’ve built most of my sponsons as Lascannons, as those count as main guns, and so keep it a viable asset for longer.

Vehicle damage chart is crazy. Im the kind of guy that always see my expencive tanks blow up first turn due to an unlikely row of sixes rolled. When I started playing HH it was swinging between sweet nostalgia memmories and PTSD to be honest.

But then again those are the games you remember and generate the strongest feelings about the game.

If the chart is gone I hope vehicles are at least subject to Tactical Statuses in some capacity.

Suppression is fun!

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There are different types of churn. Necromunda and LI have, let's say, DLC churn, where the rules stay the same but content was cut and you have to buy 6 books just to get the full game as it was in the 90s.

That's not quite right either. I think "DLC churn" is a fine way to describe it, but the extra books were adding content that demonstrably did not exist and had no precedent in the old version.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Heavy weapons moving prooobably means the game won't be playable without ITC ruin corners everywhere.

Did HH preserve working terrain rules for non-ruins terrain?

Part of the reason for ruin corners is that the other terrain types were stomped on. For example, 4th edition area terrain would have done the job of ruin corners but could be expressed as ruins, forests, thickets of alien plants, etc.

 Altruizine wrote:

That's not quite right either. I think "DLC churn" is a fine way to describe it, but the extra books were adding content that demonstrably did not exist and had no precedent in the old version.

You needed... maybe 5 splatbooks just to collect the 6 OG gangs for Necromunda. Goliaths and Eschers were literally a day 1 expansion book and not in the starter box. Pretty sure LI came out swinging with cut content too... like the entire fast attack section, that came in the first "expansion".

Did HH preserve working terrain rules for non-ruins terrain?

Part of the reason for ruin corners is that the other terrain types were stomped on. For example, 4th edition area terrain would have done the job of ruin corners but could be expressed as ruins, forests, thickets of alien plants, etc.

Sadly not really. I did notice the ruin corners try to replicate area terrain functionality. It only took until mid 9th edition (12 years, give or take) for the tournament circuit to figure out that what the game needs to be tactical is terrain that blocks LOS without blocking room for placing models.

I don't think GW has ever written a good set of challenge rules, but maybe with Marine vs Marine base they'll succeed this time.

How would people want challenge rules to work?

 Dysartes wrote:
How would people want challenge rules to work?

I want them to go away, they're a dumb thing for an army game.

Agreed.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
How would people want challenge rules to work?

I want them to go away, they're a dumb thing for an army game.

This.

 Dysartes wrote:
How would people want challenge rules to work?

Ideally, whilst not necessarily applicable to the modern game sensibilities? A means to try to neutralise Hero Hammer.

Rather than allow your Big Scary Psycho to lawnmower their way through my unit, I issue a challenge with at least a Unit Leader, almost certainly costing their life whilst preserving the rest of the unit. Granted, unless I’ve something else up my sleeve for the next turn (such as my very own, ideally biggerer Bug Scary Psycho Turbo Nutter in place to counter charge) I’m merely delaying the inevitable. But sometimes, even a delay can do the necessary job.

I’m also not entirely unfond of the Overkill concept, where the harder I butter your dude, the more combat res points I can earn - but ideally at a cap. This allows even low to medium level characters to seriously aid in line breaking by horribly duffing up an enemy unit leader.

I don't dislike the idea of challenges, but I don't like that you potentially don't get a choice about them.

It's either accept a challenge you very likely won't win, or completely lose the use of a character for that turn's combat. That smacks of Feel Bad to me. I'd much rather it be something along the lines of you don't have to accept a challenge, but then you can only use the lowest leadership in the unit for any subsequent tests that round "as the confusion of battle has rendered the units command structure ineffective". Or somesuch. Make up your own justification.

Or maybe have characters on a tier system. Sergeant are 1. Veteran Sergeants (vets and legion elite units) are 2. Consuls are 3, Preators 4 and Primarchs 5.
Everyone can challenge their own Tier, but a lower Tier character can punch up and challenge a higher Tier at his own risk, but a higher Tier character can't punch down and bully the little fish.

Sure your tactical Sgt. with power fist could try and blat that paragon blade wielding Praetor. But you best be prepared to lose him if he feths up.


Of course you'd have a Tier system structured so that it not only account for Marines, but also Solar Aux, Mechanicum, Talons, etc.
It's a fairly simple system and I'm sure it wouldn't be too tricky to work out. But I still wouldn't trust GW not to feth it up though.

 Snrub wrote:
Or maybe have characters on a tier system. Sergeant are 1. Veteran Sergeants (vets and legion elite units) are 2. Consuls are 3, Preators 4 and Primarchs 5.
Everyone can challenge their own Tier, but a lower Tier character can punch up and challenge a higher Tier at his own risk, but a higher Tier character can't punch down and bully the little fish

I love this idea.

That tier system could also solve the “lose a character for a round problem”, if you allow characters with a higher tier (say two ranks above) to flat just ignore a challenge from a lower tier.

Primarchs don’t really care that Sgt. Plucky Pluckerson has challenged them to a duel when they can just slaughter the entire squad…

 Jadenim wrote:
That tier system could also solve the “lose a character for a round problem”, if you allow characters with a higher tier (say two ranks above) to flat just ignore a challenge from a lower tier.

Primarchs don’t really care that Sgt. Plucky Pluckerson has challenged them to a duel when they can just slaughter the entire squad…

Isn't Sgt Plucky standing up to Horus and being obliterated, triggering the big E kind of a major bit of Heresy lore?

Yes!

Each Sergeant you feed to the enemy Primarch gives your own Primarch +1 Attack, or something.

No...

+1 Willpower

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
That tier system could also solve the “lose a character for a round problem”, if you allow characters with a higher tier (say two ranks above) to flat just ignore a challenge from a lower tier.

Primarchs don’t really care that Sgt. Plucky Pluckerson has challenged them to a duel when they can just slaughter the entire squad…

Isn't Sgt Plucky standing up to Horus and being obliterated, triggering the big E kind of a major bit of Heresy lore?

Yes, sergeant Ollanius Pope Pious the eleventyseventh something. Who was a rando guardsman despite none teleporting on board, a catholic perpetual (again with no actual reason to be on board Horus’s personal flagship), a Custodian, or a Blood Angel driven mad by the sight of his slaughtered Primarch, depending on which version of the story you’re reading today.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes!

Each Sergeant you feed to the enemy Primarch gives your own Primarch +1 Attack, or something.

No...

+1 Willpower

"I can cast psychic powers better for feeding my 3 sergeants to Perturabo!!!!" - Vulkan, mirca M31, right before realising he isn't a psyker.

So!

I've stumbled on a reveal stream reaction video that came out much later than the usual content creators and caught things those scrambling to publish first missed. https://youtu.be/ZnByF9krm9I?si=FjVBCshjliWIgJFK

Among them that there are Glaives amongst the Fellblades in the cinematic trailer.

And during the rulebook flipthrough, the first artwork of Mk4 with the new proportions.

Sunday Preview – Tyranid Raveners burrow into Kill Team
Tarantulas & Rapiers!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Oh interesting that these are coming out ahead of the new edition. Maybe their rules will suck

Also one thing those guys spotted in the stream was an image of a Whirlwind with the Hyperios missile launcher on top, which I'm guessing must be a legal option and you can build it just by plonking the Tarantula turret on it.

Very tempted by the Rapiers, a cute mini-mini landraider
Curious what their prize is going to be.

What is the armor the crew are wearing? looks like grimdark bodycams on the chest

wolfrider wrote:
Very tempted by the Rapiers, a cute mini-mini landraider
Curious what their prize is going to be.

Probably 40€ for two?

Curious what their unit size will be. If they still top at 3 it's going to be so obnoxious to get a full unit armed the same.

 skrulnik wrote:
What is the armor the crew are wearing? looks like grimdark bodycams on the chest

It's based on the original LE2 Imperial Space Marine armor and gets a mention in the armor timeline of the 2.0 rulebook. The helmets are from the MkIV techmarine, and the shoulders also look more MkIV than the rest of the model.