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Congrats Doc, you've proved NMNR is once again being applied like firing a gun with your eyes closed.

Some things have been removed entirely, and some things have been removed partially.

Do you want a prize because you've used facts and logic to prove one thing incorrect at the expense of 8 or 9 correct?

Probably only the case since they have a similar role to recon marines.

Either way, this a very strange hill to die on.

HH grogs, welcome to modern GW! Make sure you buy all your books as soon as you can, because the new edition will be here in <checks wrist-mounted chronometer> 3 years and you'll have to buy them all again. But hey, at least you're not playing 40k, amirite?

Can we get a GW version of the Sonic Cycle? Can all the steps on the cycle be "wait and see"?

Hmm, reading through the leaks my opinions are mixed.

Lots of wargear options being lost both makes some units i've built require re-structuring. Annoying but I'll survive, also reduces list diversity which I really dislike. I enjoy seeing 5 players/armies use and kit out the same unit in different ways, it was the vibe I enjoyed in 30k 2.0 list building.

No artificer on sargents means ap3 will be way more powerful on the average, unit survivability may drop a bit but things will speed up as you don't have to/can't slow roll 20 hits on the sarge till you get that failed 1. Centurions can take that role now I suppose and we'll probably see more of them due to how the list building functions? (as I understand)

Extra attacks from 2 weapons has been moved to the attack characteristic? And the extra shots thrown out by volley fire I suppose. Does mean weapons that feel chunky like hammers feel, well less chunky because you're not weighing up that lost attack you'd get from a power weapon or what have you, just asking if you want to get the extra shot on the charge or not. (assuming rapid fire weapons still cant charge after shooting)

Tanks being single units may feel annoying, like... how many single predators or sabres can you cram in a list? Will this cripple heavy weapons squads as they simply can't kill that many units? More of a meta question I suppose, how the average list will handle the average problem. But it may make tanks more functional, maybe, you certainly won't have whole squadrons vanish to a 10 man lascannon squad. Cause they can only kill 1 per turn. To my understanding tanks have split fire natively and infantry/dreads don't.

We know dreads got a kick to the teeth in their stats but does anything else look overtuned to anyone at this point? Like, the game could be fun but it does feel like an offshoot of 2.0 rather than a development, if that makes sense.

cody.d. wrote:
Hmm, reading through the leaks my opinions are mixed.

Lots of wargear options being lost both makes some units i've built require re-structuring. Annoying but I'll survive, also reduces list diversity which I really dislike. I enjoy seeing 5 players/armies use and kit out the same unit in different ways, it was the vibe I enjoyed in 30k 2.0 list building.

No artificer on sargents means ap3 will be way more powerful on the average, unit survivability may drop a bit but things will speed up as you don't have to/can't slow roll 20 hits on the sarge till you get that failed 1. Centurions can take that role now I suppose and we'll probably see more of them due to how the list building functions? (as I understand)

Extra attacks from 2 weapons has been moved to the attack characteristic? And the extra shots thrown out by volley fire I suppose. Does mean weapons that feel chunky like hammers feel, well less chunky because you're not weighing up that lost attack you'd get from a power weapon or what have you, just asking if you want to get the extra shot on the charge or not. (assuming rapid fire weapons still cant charge after shooting)

Tanks being single units may feel annoying, like... how many single predators or sabres can you cram in a list? Will this cripple heavy weapons squads as they simply can't kill that many units? More of a meta question I suppose, how the average list will handle the average problem. But it may make tanks more functional, maybe, you certainly won't have whole squadrons vanish to a 10 man lascannon squad. Cause they can only kill 1 per turn. To my understanding tanks have split fire natively and infantry/dreads don't.

We know dreads got a kick to the teeth in their stats but does anything else look overtuned to anyone at this point? Like, the game could be fun but it does feel like an offshoot of 2.0 rather than a development, if that makes sense.

Is there another leak album other than what was posted earlier? If so link pls?

I think at this point most of the rules have been leaked, most of the special rules, how challenges function, vehicles function etc etc. Though it was in a chatroom so I don't know where they came from.

cody.d. wrote:
I think at this point most of the rules have been leaked, most of the special rules, how challenges function, vehicles function etc etc. Though it was in a chatroom so I don't know where they came from.

Ah im aware of that stuff, just was wondering if more of the libers leaked than what we saw earlier.

If you've seen the Raven Guard stuff you've seen everything

AFAIK NDAs lift on Saturday, so that's when all "man reads book on camera" and first battle reports go up.

The full pages for tac, vet tac, assault, vet assault, outriders and jetbikes are floating around.

More options than in 40k but less options than in 30k 2.0. Way less access to power weapons meaning the power weapon kit really is weird now. Just for kitting out sergants and characters essentially.

Whats the reasoning behind destroyers being removed I wonder?

 Snrub wrote:
Whats the reasoning behind destroyers being removed I wonder?

Gives you a reason to buy Journal 2

Yeah probably true honestly. I heard they removed artificer armor for squad sergeants. Which is such a GW way of fixing wound tanking. They could easily just go back to "closest to closest" for wound allocation. Or make it so you can only tank an amount of wounds equal to your initiative like SN do.

Ah but don't forget they seem to want us to have a lot of centurions for list building. So they'll probably take the job of wound tanking.

cody.d. wrote:
Ah but don't forget they seem to want us to have a lot of centurions for list building. So they'll probably take the job of wound tanking.

Everyone is Stormwing now. It almost brings a tear of joy to my eyes to see how the lesser legions have learned from their betters.

So, contrary to my earlier hopeful statement, 2 of my current SW units have indeed been invalidated; Grey Stalkers are gone, as is the Speaker of the Dead. Just as well I paused my SW army when the first rumours of a new edition appeared. Back to the drawing board with that army. I guess it was inevitable that there would be some thinning-out of legion-specific units, as they will eventually want to do all of them in plastic - a shame my favourite SW unit got hit though.

My just-completed SoH Veteran squad also seems to have been invalidated, as it contains models with a mixture of combi-weapons and melee weapons. That stings. I should have seen that one coming though, as they weren't a popular unit.

Where are the leaked entries for Assault squads and Veteran units?

https://imgur.com/a/4nVtK8r

This is some of what I have, could post the whole lot of it when I get home if wanted? I dunno the posting rules to the letter mind you and don't want to spam and it's on my phone atm.

Chain axes are on the menu for everyone though so that's fun.

 Snord wrote:
My just-completed SoH Veteran squad also seems to have been invalidated, as it contains models with a mixture of combi-weapons and melee weapons. That stings. I should have seen that one coming though, as they weren't a popular unit.

Where are the leaked entries for Assault squads and Veteran units?

I can imagine combi-weapon wargear will fall under Seekers, which are a standard Recon unit. Combi-weapons are missing from the datasheets we've seen so far, including on sergeants across the board. You'll probably be still be able to use the squad with their current loadout (depending on how many melee weapons you have).

Check out BlackBriar gaming on youtube, the data sheets are available there.

Thanks, both. I think my Veterans are history - they are equipped with a mixture of volkite combi-weapons and melee weapons, and I can't see any way of fitting that in. At least I hadn't painted them.

Agreed, my assault marines and despoilers have their power axes now illegal. Perhaps the models will see some life as part of a retinue? I've yet to see that datasheet and hope THAT at least will be a toybox to have fun with.

But, tac vets are kidna fun, actually having bs5 now.

Im glad my chain axes are super unique for my world eaters now.

cody.d. wrote:
Agreed, my assault marines and despoilers have their power axes now illegal. Perhaps the models will see some life as part of a retinue? I've yet to see that datasheet and hope THAT at least will be a toybox to have fun with.

But, tac vets are kidna fun, actually having bs5 now.

Why are the power axes illegal? Assault marines at least still get 1 per 5 for 10 points.

 Rihgu wrote:
Why are the power axes illegal? Assault marines at least still get 1 per 5 for 10 points.

Yes, I was relieved to see that. So far my Ultramarines seem to be unaffected - apart from very likely needing another Centurion.

Oh, you're right I stand corrected. Well I'm certainly glad of that. Though part of me is wondering if it's worth kitting some out with some fancy pistols since they're likely to be used more often nowdays.

Been going through the Questoris chaps and, I have to say, it is going right up my flagpole to be saluted.

Caveat: I was not playing them in the last edition. Also, have not made a careful study of the new rules, so please take that into account.

What I am liking is the addition of the Yeomanry detachment, Solar Auxilia or Militia to represent the 'house troops'. Basically boils down to Veletaris, a couple of Lasrifle sections, a couple of Dracosans and some Hermes Sentinels. Make one of your Knights a Lord Scion and you unlock this detachment. However, if you are an Imperialis house, you get the detachment for free and can have unlimited Lord Scions. So, knock yourself out and have half your army as footsloggers.

You can also do this with Automata, but it is flipped, so Imperialis houses get potential access to one if you have the right knight on board while Mechanicum can have a whole bunch.

Were the big(ger) Dominus Knights in the last edition? They are missing in this one.

Anyway, was going to mostly ignore this edition but the idea of the complete knight household has got me looking seriously at doing a new army

All the loyalists

Cusswords aren't mine, it's about some drama with SN Battle Reports allegedly trying to snitch on the leaker

https://imgur.com/a/jYokLre

Needless to say, I hate everything. Some of the rules reek of active malice towards players.

Even White Scars can't make bikes scoring, nor can any character take a bike, ever. Khan's special power is spamming empty Land Raiders for some reason.

More than any other sections, this one looks like it was written by RoboRosewater.

So Gorgon Terminators lost all their options and Medusan Immortals lost almost all of theirs - great :-(

Could it get any more childish?

I see the Grey Slayers are now something of a hybrid between the original Slayers and the now-defunct Stalkers. Meanwhile Deathsworn have lost their (meagre) weapon options, but are still rubbish in melee. Varagyr had all of their options removed too, which seems pretty perverse - of all the SW units, they would be the most likely to have a mixture of weapon types. As this lack of options tracks the available resin models, I guess that means the SW aren't getting plastic replacements any time soon.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I haven't seen anyone comment about how they split Knights and titans into their own Liber off from the Mechanicum. So not only do you have to buy all new books, they generated a new one lmao.

I'm glad that Questoris Knights aand Titans are their own book and not part of the Mechanicum.

Now I only need 1 Liber to play. If I want to add allies later, I don't mind looking at other books then. But I prefer a simple approach in the beginning.

The massive amount of invalidation is really putting me off the edition.

I'm not ordering the box on Saturday any more, I just have a bitter taste in my mouth about the whole exercise.

The entire appeal of 30k is that it doesn't have the dumb weapons restrictions of 40k FFS.

 Gert wrote:

Some things have been removed entirely, and some things have been removed partially.

Won't these be in the Legacies PDF in a couple of weeks or so?