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Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

There is no requirement for a jump pack character to build a jump pack army any more, same for bikes.

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

There is no requirement for a jump pack character to build a jump pack army any more, same for bikes.

That is not the point. point beeing that thematic forces are built that way, and therefore the options are used, were used and now are ilegal. And the HH- community is far more inclined for such thematic forces.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

There is no requirement for a jump pack character to build a jump pack army any more, same for bikes.

That is not the point. point beeing that thematic forces are built that way, and therefore the options are used, were used and now are ilegal. And the HH- community is far more inclined for such thematic forces.

But that would undermine GW's goal - little Timmy has to be able to build an army with just the models in each box, they can't possibly be expected to convert or think, just buy buy buy

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

There is no requirement for a jump pack character to build a jump pack army any more, same for bikes.

That is not the point. point beeing that thematic forces are built that way, and therefore the options are used, were used and now are ilegal. And the HH- community is far more inclined for such thematic forces.

So literally the only thing stopping them now is the absence of 2 wargear entries that I noted was a problem. That is still not the majority of their force invalidated in any way, just the characters which I suspect will be restored before long.

You seem to lean on rites of war, which is a rules based play style, it is irrelevant to the models being invalidated.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

There is no requirement for a jump pack character to build a jump pack army any more, same for bikes.

That is not the point. point beeing that thematic forces are built that way, and therefore the options are used, were used and now are ilegal. And the HH- community is far more inclined for such thematic forces.

But that would undermine GW's goal - little Timmy has to be able to build an army with just the models in each box, they can't possibly be expected to convert or think, just buy buy buy

Except that contradicts their own Company statement of the Journals requiring conversions to build units from their pages.

It's always the same with you dude, same when R&H were invalidated. What this is, is precedence, we saw it already with 40k.
Stop excusing the multibillion Dollar company.

 ScarletRose wrote:
But that would undermine GW's goal - little Timmy has to be able to build an army with just the models in each box, they can't possibly be expected to convert or think, just buy buy buy

See, I thought that Heresy was geared at an older crowd, not Little Timmy. Since, y'know, there are a lot of 'expert kits' that Little Timmy shouldn't be getting into.

Not Online!!! wrote:
It's always the same with you dude, same when R&H were invalidated. What this is, is precedence, we saw it already with 40k.
Stop excusing the multibillion Dollar company.

At what point have I? I've suggested people are being dramatic and exaggerating, which is nothing to do with excusing anything.

I've been nothing but negative towards the 3.0 rules so far, but I can't have a mood about minis being a waste just because it has the wrong pokey item on it etc. they tend to mean enough to me I'll just find a way to use them.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
But that would undermine GW's goal - little Timmy has to be able to build an army with just the models in each box, they can't possibly be expected to convert or think, just buy buy buy

See, I thought that Heresy was geared at an older crowd, not Little Timmy. Since, y'know, there are a lot of 'expert kits' that Little Timmy shouldn't be getting into.

Timmy churns better.

Dudeface wrote:
I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

I mean it depends on the individual army doesn't it? As it stands, without the Legacies rules, my armies have so far lost the following:

Iron Hands - 2x Destroyers, 1x Scouts, 1x Gorgon Terminators (loadout changes mean my converted Gorgons are now illegal), 1x Praevian (has something that isn't in the loadout so now it has to be something else so no robot buddies for him), 1x Moritat (doesn't have a Jump Pack so is no longer a legal loadout).

Salamanders - 1x Firedrake Terminators (same as the Gorgons). I've also lost Dragonsbreath Flamers and Drakescale Shields. Thank you GW very cool.

Raven Guard - 3x Scouts (i.e. all my core line units and the RoW that allowed them to be line).

Iron Warriors - 1x Warsmith (not in Terminator armour so he's been reduced to generic consul, so I would no longer have a Warmsith as I don't have any other models with the right loadout), 1x Terminator Librarian (as far as I am aware, these are gone). Potentially other consuls from this army though I am not 100% sure just yet. Ironically, my Siege Breaker is fine because the model has a Thunderhammer.

Is it 2/3rds of my army? No. Are they important parts of my armies? You bet.

Frankly, all it looks live you've done in the last few posts is tell people they aren't allowed to be annoyed or upset that they've lost chunks of their army. So, way to go defending the faceless corporate entity.

 Gert wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

I mean it depends on the individual army doesn't it? As it stands, without the Legacies rules, my armies have so far lost the following:

Iron Hands - 2x Destroyers, 1x Scouts, 1x Gorgon Terminators (loadout changes mean my converted Gorgons are now illegal), 1x Praevian (has something that isn't in the loadout so now it has to be something else so no robot buddies for him), 1x Moritat (doesn't have a Jump Pack so is no longer a legal loadout).

Salamanders - 1x Firedrake Terminators (same as the Gorgons). I've also lost Dragonsbreath Flamers and Drakescale Shields. Thank you GW very cool.

Raven Guard - 3x Scouts (i.e. all my core line units and the RoW that allowed them to be line).

Iron Warriors - 1x Warsmith (not in Terminator armour so he's been reduced to generic consul, so I would no longer have a Warmsith as I don't have any other models with the right loadout), 1x Terminator Librarian (as far as I am aware, these are gone). Potentially other consuls from this army though I am not 100% sure just yet. Ironically, my Siege Breaker is fine because the model has a Thunderhammer.

Is it 2/3rds of my army? No. Are they important parts of my armies? You bet.

Frankly, all it looks live you've done in the last few posts is tell people they aren't allowed to be annoyed or upset that they've lost chunks of their army. So, way to go defending the faceless corporate entity.

You weren't going to play 3rd ed HH anyway so why are you mad?

Just ordered a small Solar Auxilia force, and wanted to order up a Charonite Ogryn Section or two, and its nowhere to be found on the US site.

It was just featured in the "Faction Focus" article for Solar Auxilia, so its strange to see it missing. Rebrand/Rebox is most likely, right?

Could be crossing the Rubicon Plasticarus.

 nels1031 wrote:
Just ordered a small Solar Auxilia force, and wanted to order up a Charonite Ogryn Section or two, and its nowhere to be found on the US site.

It was just featured in the "Faction Focus" article for Solar Auxilia, so its strange to see it missing. Rebrand/Rebox is most likely, right?

Most likely - any change to the product triggers a new product code and the website interprets this as the old product code going "sold out online" and vanishing. Sometimes GW are swift and they swap over and no one notices; other times it pings and can stay like that for a while before the new one gets cycled in. It's one of the big frustrations at times because you're never quite sure if the sold-out-online thing is going away for good or not.

Dudeface wrote:


You weren't going to play 3rd ed HH anyway so why are you mad?

It's called providing examples to back up a point.

But yeah sure, I'm banned from commenting or supporting others points in a discussion because I'm not playing HH3.

 Gert wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


You weren't going to play 3rd ed HH anyway so why are you mad?

It's called providing examples to back up a point.

But yeah sure, I'm banned from commenting or supporting others points in a discussion because I'm not playing HH3.

OK, let's go through it:

Iron Hands - 2x Destroyers, 1x Scouts, 1x Gorgon Terminators (loadout changes mean my converted Gorgons are now illegal), 1x Praevian (has something that isn't in the loadout so now it has to be something else so no robot buddies for him), 1x Moritat (doesn't have a Jump Pack so is no longer a legal loadout).

You've not said much but a stock destroyer is pistols and chainsword, close to an assault or despiiler squad based on jump pack or not.

You've not commented on the gorgons, you could still field gorgons and use them with the legal stock loadout.

The praevian has limited gear so simply has the stock gear and is still a praevian.

Field the moritat model as is, using the profile provided. The jump pack is aesthetic only.

Salamanders - 1x Firedrake Terminators (same as the Gorgons). I've also lost Dragonsbreath Flamers and Drakescale Shields. Thank you GW very cool.

Again, not giving much context, again you could use them as stock loadout.

Raven Guard - 3x Scouts (i.e. all my core line units and the RoW that allowed them to be line).

Line no longer matters in this context, there are no Scouts, whilst I agree that's a problem here, I'm actually OK with scouts going away on a fluff level, use them as recon squads?

Iron Warriors - 1x Warsmith (not in Terminator armour so he's been reduced to generic consul, so I would no longer have a Warmsith as I don't have any other models with the right loadout), 1x Terminator Librarian (as far as I am aware, these are gone). Potentially other consuls from this army though I am not 100% sure just yet. Ironically, my Siege Breaker is fine because the model has a Thunderhammer.

You acknowledge you can still use the warsmith, the same will apply to the librarian.

Is any of that really that hard if you wanted to continue using your minis?

Is it worth tearing them apart or simply not playing rather than make that small leap of logic?

Frankly it doesn't matter, people can be upset about what they're upset about. It doesn't mean everyone will be as empathic as others and that's why people are interesting, we're all different.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
But that would undermine GW's goal - little Timmy has to be able to build an army with just the models in each box, they can't possibly be expected to convert or think, just buy buy buy

See, I thought that Heresy was geared at an older crowd, not Little Timmy. Since, y'know, there are a lot of 'expert kits' that Little Timmy shouldn't be getting into.

Timmy churns better.

Not if he can't afford the bloody game, or if everyone gak-talks it like this.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:
But that would undermine GW's goal - little Timmy has to be able to build an army with just the models in each box, they can't possibly be expected to convert or think, just buy buy buy

See, I thought that Heresy was geared at an older crowd, not Little Timmy. Since, y'know, there are a lot of 'expert kits' that Little Timmy shouldn't be getting into.

Timmy churns better.

Not if he can't afford the bloody game, or if everyone gak-talks it like this.

Resin only models is quite the gatekeeper to Little Timmy.

Dudeface wrote:
...words...

Dude, people are allowed to be pissed about what's happening here. Kindly stop people their feelings are invalid.

Of course you can theoretically still play all your models with minor changes
Same as you could officially play Bretonnia in 2nd Edition AoS, even at events

The problem is, if a game is advertised as narrative focused for casual play, the personal narrative and immersion matters the most
And people build their models in a way the narrative told them
And now GW just changed the lore and what was once a lore accurate unit is now a proxy

So of course everyone can just play with proxies, but people choose this game because they didn't want that

You could also suggest that people should just take their models and proxy 40k, a Sicaran isn't that different from the primaris tanks anyway
And if people don't want that, they are not flexible enough or whatever you want to call that

If people would be that relaxed towards such changes in general, X-Wing or Warmachine would be still big games with a growing community but both died with an Edition change, and the changes and upgrade costs there were minor compared to HH3.

Somehow people are not allowed to be angry at GW or demand good games, just torwards others

It's the question of are people unhappy and looking to vent, or unhappy and looking for solutions?

People are entitled to feel how they want, but at the same time if other people don't feel the same way or are looking for options, that doesn't automatically make them corporate shills like some people claim. It's not a case of "If you aren't with me, you are the enemy"

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gert wrote:
That's an extremely reductive take on this Dudeface and I'm surprised at that.

This isn't just about Siege Breakers only having Hammers.
This is about no more mounted characters (sorry White Scars), or no more jump pack characters except Moritats (sorry Raven Guard, World Eaters, and Blood Angels).

This is the nail in the coffin for what was the one hope of Heresy not going the way of 40k and AoS with set character loadouts and no options for units beyond the kit limits.

I accept the loss of jump packs and bikes as a problem. Are they 2/3 of an army though?

Yes? Rite of war armies? The fact that HH armies are literaly built that way?

There is no requirement for a jump pack character to build a jump pack army any more, same for bikes.

That is not the point. point beeing that thematic forces are built that way, and therefore the options are used, were used and now are ilegal. And the HH- community is far more inclined for such thematic forces.

So literally the only thing stopping them now is the absence of 2 wargear entries that I noted was a problem. That is still not the majority of their force invalidated in any way, just the characters which I suspect will be restored before long.

You seem to lean on rites of war, which is a rules based play style, it is irrelevant to the models being invalidated.

This is genuinely farcical sophistry. It's a game, the game has rules, of course the models people use to play the game no longer having the options available is relevant. I mean seriously, just skip to the end and start arguing nothing GW do with the rules ever matters because if it bothers us we can just write "Pravian" and "Tactical Squad" on little bits of cereal packet and play with those

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
It's the question of are people unhappy and looking to vent, or unhappy and looking for solutions?

People are entitled to feel how they want, but at the same time if other people don't feel the same way or are looking for options, that doesn't automatically make them corporate shills like some people claim. It's not a case of "If you aren't with me, you are the enemy"

People reacting negatively to being told "who cares, you could just counts-as your whole army as something different that kinda-sorta-vaguely looks a bit similar if you take your specs off and squint real hard" is hardly Anakin Skywalker speech tier.

 BorderCountess wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
...words...

Dude, people are allowed to be pissed about what's happening here. Kindly stop people their feelings are invalid.

OK, must agree or shut up, got you.

Curious to see more Mechanicum stuff. Thanatar and the two bad boys look okay, weapons too. Thallax could be nasty, but their battle role changed.

Doesn't look like I lost anything this time, but well, the Liber Mechanicum wasn't exactly rich in variety. I hope the Macrocarid and Thrall weapon variants are still in the Legacies (and the Ordinatus Sagittar who has missed a whole edition...). Speaking of Legacies, looks like the Marine one is going to be pretty large - I wonder how the manage it and how the players react (I for one always used Legacy units, but I can't speak for the whole community). I mean the announcement was bold:

The Liber books deal with units which are part of the current Horus Heresy miniatures range, but there have been many units with rules in past editions which never had miniatures, or which have left the range.

You may absolutely still use these rules and miniatures in your games, using the Legacies of the Age of Darkness PDF. Units will clearly be marked as “core” or “legacy”, but there are no restrictions on using them, either in casual play or at tournaments. Tournament organisers may choose to exclude certain units from their events, but because this game system leans more towards the narrative side of things, the current plan is that all official Warhammer-run events will allow legacy units.

Dudeface wrote:

You've not said much but a stock destroyer is pistols and chainsword, close to an assault or despiiler squad based on jump pack or not.

You've not commented on the gorgons, you could still field gorgons and use them with the legal stock loadout.

The praevian has limited gear so simply has the stock gear and is still a praevian.

Field the moritat model as is, using the profile provided. The jump pack is aesthetic only.

And yet I already have 20 Despoilers and don't need another 10. The Toxiferran Flamers, Graviton Shredder and Rad-Missile Launcher are also all non-useable in any combination.
The Gorgons have Power Fists, so that means using them as Tartaros or Cataprhactii, which means I lose my unique Legion unit.
The Praevian has a Thunderhammer, hardly what I would call "WYSIWYG compliant", a standard for literally every single event in existence.
The Jump Pack is a very obviously lacking piece of wargear on the unit, and as discussed, without his Destroyer friends, he's rather lonely.
Feels like that's one for me there big dog.

Again, not giving much context, again you could use them as stock loadout.

None of them have Thunderhammers and Drakeshields, so again, losing my unique Legion unit.

Line no longer matters in this context, there are no Scouts, whilst I agree that's a problem here, I'm actually OK with scouts going away on a fluff level, use them as recon squads?

I'm so happy that my loss makes you happy even though Scouts are something that has been in Heresy rules since day 1 and has been present in Heresy artwork for a lot longer. But hey, I'm being unreasonable here aren't I? I should be happy that my smaller, less armoured models on smaller bases should be used as something else that doesn't actually look like the thing I'm using right?

You acknowledge you can still use the warsmith, the same will apply to the librarian.

But not as the unit it has been used as for close to 10 years. The Librarian also literally can't be a standard Power Armour Librarian if it's in Terminator Armour. Once again, the major issue with "Just proxy lol =))))" is that it doesn't work when WYSIWYG is the standard for any event.

Is any of that really that hard if you wanted to continue using your minis?

Is it worth tearing them apart or simply not playing rather than make that small leap of logic?

Again, WYSIWYG. I can't go to a HH3 event with these models because they are not legal. I can whatever I want in my own home with my own house rules. That is not the point I and others are making.

Frankly it doesn't matter, people can be upset about what they're upset about.

Then why are you insisting on policing people's emotions? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

With unit entries missing wargear and options that are included in the kits, I do want to see what the FAQ/errata and Legacies PDF say. I also expect some people to reject that idea as "wait and see"

 Gert wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


Again, WYSIWYG. I can't go to a HH3 event with these models because they are not legal. I can whatever I want in my own home with my own house rules. That is not the point I and others are making.

Frankly it doesn't matter, people can be upset about what they're upset about.

Then why are you insisting on policing people's emotions? Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

You moved the goal posts to WYSIWYG at an event, which are typically narrative and allow you to submit proxies before attending.

I'm not policing emotions. I'm pointing out that just because your praevian has a thunder hammer it doesn't mean you can't use it as a praevian, your army isn't ruined, you don't need to buy new stuff. If the thunderhammer is the sole single thing that gave your praevian it's character, that's really quite a shallow level of depth in the first place.

A unit not having the specific loadout doesn't render the model totally obsolete. Likewise, don't like it don't play it, nobody is going to force anyone to use something they don't want to.

Warhammer fans have a tendency to be disproportionately emotive in responses with a flair for the hyperbole, they also seem to constantly need GW's approval for everything and only be able to do what GW say. Likewise "trying to make the most of it" is like a sin level with mugging your nan apparently.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
With unit entries missing wargear and options that are included in the kits, I do want to see what the FAQ/errata and Legacies PDF say. I also expect some people to reject that idea as "wait and see"

I'd be surprised to see multiple profiles for units just to add weapons back in.

Full units like Destroyers and Scouts, sure. But Legacy Medusan Immortals or Legacy Consuls would just be an admission of failure on the part of the rules writers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Warhammer fans have a tendency to be disproportionately emotive in responses with a flair for the hyperbole, they also seem to constantly need GW's approval for everything and only be able to do what GW say. Likewise "trying to make the most of it" is like a sin level with mugging your nan apparently.

"Trying to make the most of it" falls flat when the rules have had significant changes and read like a scientific paper, customisation has been nuked then locked behind a paywall of extra books, and chunks of units aren't valid outside of house rules or mass counts-as/proxies.

As the saying goes, you can put glitter on it but it will always be what it is.

 Gert wrote:

"Trying to make the most of it" falls flat when the rules have had significant changes and read like a scientific paper, customisation has been nuked then locked behind a paywall of extra books, and chunks of units aren't valid outside of house rules or mass counts-as/proxies.

As the saying goes, you can put glitter on it but it will always be what it is.

It also falls flat when you have to spend 10 minutes explaining what every unit counts as to your opponent and hope that they remember which is which throughout the game because you "tried to make the most of it" with units that no longer exist.

That too.