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 Dysartes wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When you think about it logically, Chaos should have practically everything loyalists do, plus a bunch of corrupted stuff. But every time that happens, loyalist players tend to complain about unfairness (as has happened from time to time with IK/CK).

If Chaos gets everything the loyalists get, plus all the gribbly/corrupt/daemonic stuff... why should anyone play as the loyalists?

Well, nowadays you have Primaris as a distinction. CSM could get all firstborn vehicles + their daemonic gribblys, Loyalists can get Firstborn stuff + Primaris.

Personally I don't know why anyone would play as the loyalists period. But I seem to be quite alone in this

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When you think about it logically, Chaos should have practically everything loyalists do, plus a bunch of corrupted stuff. But every time that happens, loyalist players tend to complain about unfairness (as has happened from time to time with IK/CK).

If Chaos gets everything the loyalists get, plus all the gribbly/corrupt/daemonic stuff... why should anyone play as the loyalists?

You require a degree of cognitive dissonance to accept that chaos wouldn't have the same + extra though is the issue. They can't work out to strap a lascannon to a rhino and make a razorback, but they can invent a quadruped plasma monster?

That’s not how its supply lines work.

Not all Renegades have a Techmarine or analogous person. And even then, whatever their base of operations is (ship, planet, asteroid), it doesn’t necessarily have all the stuff you need for fabrication and repair.

The Daemon Engines? Those are made by the Dark Mechanicus, and sold, traded or loaned to warbands. This is necessary, as until you’ve become a Warpsmith and learned how? No Techmarine knows how to safely stuff a Daemon inside a machine. And if you try and it goes wrong? It doesn’t seem the sort of error you really get to make more than once unless you’re really lucky.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
That’s not how its supply lines work.

Not all Renegades have a Techmarine or analogous person. And even then, whatever their base of operations is (ship, planet, asteroid), it doesn’t necessarily have all the stuff you need for fabrication and repair.

The Daemon Engines? Those are made by the Dark Mechanicus, and sold, traded or loaned to warbands. This is necessary, as until you’ve become a Warpsmith and learned how? No Techmarine knows how to safely stuff a Daemon inside a machine. And if you try and it goes wrong? It doesn’t seem the sort of error you really get to make more than once unless you’re really lucky.

and yet fwiw chaos has less access to land raiders despite having the STC and destroyed the loyalist one.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When you think about it logically, Chaos should have practically everything loyalists do, plus a bunch of corrupted stuff. But every time that happens, loyalist players tend to complain about unfairness (as has happened from time to time with IK/CK).

If Chaos gets everything the loyalists get, plus all the gribbly/corrupt/daemonic stuff... why should anyone play as the loyalists?

Is this ever a realistic problem that will need answering? People play the loyalists because they are the designated generic protagonists.

The vast mass of players who picked male human warrior in World of Warcraft aren't going to pick traitor in Warhammer just because of the rosters.

Honestly some game systems have almost identical stats per army and the only difference is visual and they have no problem selling other armies.

It's always a mix of performance, stats and visual/lore elements. Esp in a hobby where you are not just playing but building, painting, possibly converting and so forth.

The fact that you like Marines with spiky bits on them more than marines with clean armour and so forth IS a part of the choosing process.

But it is tradition since at least Obliterators in the 1999 codex for loyalist players to have a seizure every time chaos gets something that isn't just a worse version of loyalists.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When you think about it logically, Chaos should have practically everything loyalists do, plus a bunch of corrupted stuff. But every time that happens, loyalist players tend to complain about unfairness (as has happened from time to time with IK/CK).

If Chaos gets everything the loyalists get, plus all the gribbly/corrupt/daemonic stuff... why should anyone play as the loyalists?

Is this ever a realistic problem that will need answering? People play the loyalists because they are the designated generic protagonists.

The vast mass of players who picked male human warrior in World of Warcraft aren't going to pick traitor in Warhammer just because of the rosters.

Maybe not from a background perspective, but if the game is set up as you propose - so Chaos has access to almost everything the Imperium has (probable exceptions being Grey Knights, SoS, and Custodes?), as well as their own units - then mechanically it makes little sense to build an Imperium force instead of a Chaos one.

You proposed the hypothetical - I'm merely extending it to the logical conclusion.

 Dysartes wrote:
Maybe not from a background perspective, but if the game is set up as you propose - so Chaos has access to almost everything the Imperium has (probable exceptions being Grey Knights, SoS, and Custodes?), as well as their own units - then mechanically it makes little sense to build an Imperium force instead of a Chaos one.

You proposed the hypothetical - I'm merely extending it to the logical conclusion.

Why is this discussion going on in the HH thread, given that in HH Loyalists and Chaos get essentially the same stuff?

Looking ahead to the rest of the year, I'd guess that Titans and Knights will be next for releases. There's the whole Armageddon thing with 40K, and Legions & Titanicus have become very stale without new and exciting Titans to yay over.

I don't agree with such extra-large models, but now is the time for GW to announce the plastic Warhound.

I feel like now is the time for GW to announce Sisters of Silence.


Or another new force to add to HH that is NOT another Marine force.

Alongside that continue the steady swap over of Mechanicus from resin to plastic which they seem to be happy to do in a dip-feed of steady releases.



Warhound would be a mistake honestly, the market for it is genuinely small and whilst its a huge iconic thing that will get a lot of attention; one of the core armies to take it (mechanicum) isn't full plastic yet. Because what you'd want is to get people's attention with the Warhound then have them spend their cash on Mechanicum.

They should revamp the Sisters of Silence completely to be in line with the Custodes changes.

Include men in the force, rename them to something like Oblivion Knights.

Produce the veteran units and units with creatures. Do a plastic Kharon Aquisitor and also a Grav Rhino.

Would match the Custodes better as they are now.

I do think it was a missed opportunity not to give anything to the SoS as part of this wave of Talons content. Heck, even a specific plastic sculpt for the generic character option - sorry, I can't remember the rank off-hand.

Mind you, I also find it weird that the plastic SoS squad doesn't show on the page for the SoS under the Horus Heresy, despite the content on the product page for the box making it clear they're for use in HH...

Agreed honestly SoS feels like someone had an idea to do SoB in 30K (which is basically what SoS are) and then something in GW fizzled and now its almost abandoned.

Either no one wants to design them or management doesn't want to put them in production or something.


I can kind of get GW hiding the models from 30K if its part of their management "every model must be in one game only" policy.

They're a really cool kit but man just so pricey for what you get. I'd rather build a sisters of battle army out of those models than the normal sisters models, but I don't want to pay as much as they're asking. Perhaps they suffer from poor sales due to being over priced?

I mean I'd argue the suffer from poor sales because its 1 plastic kit; 1 resin tank and 1 resin hero.

It's such a bonkers small model range that no one has the confidence that GW will grow it into a fleshed out army; or if they do that it might be another 5 or 10 years away.

That they've rolled the 40K versions into Custodes already suggests that maybe they'll just do the same in 30K at some point. Of course in 30K they could flesh them out because there's no SoB around then.



It's a huge "what if" and I suspect many just don't want to commit to the army unless they super-like them because the chance of them being squashed into another or just removed is so high.

Well, let’s consider the history of Heresy.

Custards first showed up in model form at the same time as the Sisters of Silence. Of course, both had long existed in the background before then.

But that was in Burning of Prospero, a boxed set released in 2016. Which is of course, just 10 years ago.

Whats transpired in those 10 years? Well, Heresy had a nasty loss with Alan Bligh passed away at a tragically young age in 2017.

And for a while, it went kinda quiet. So quiet there were the usual alarmist claims the game was being dropped.

But, Custodes received a lot of resin kits. Sisters languished.

2022? We saw the mass plastification of 2nd Ed Heresy, with Astartes predictably getting the bulk of it. That’s not something done or planned over night. It’s a lot of studio time to get things ready.

2026 Custodes get the Big Plastics Treatment, with damned near everything done.

I wonder if there are plans for Sisters of Silence, but with tumultuous times they’ve been pushed back somewhat, to get the more guaranteed sellers out on shelves first, and widen the player base as much as possible before the arguably more niche aspects get plastics.

I feel that the Sisters of Silence are in the same boat as Harlequins, where they feel right at home in Kill Team and Combat Patrol.

I just doubled checked the price and they want 10 euro per Sister. Like I think Intercessors are overpriced at a fiver a go, and they're much bigger than Sisters of Silence.

I just don't understand it. There's a few kits like that where I really like them but then I look at the price and I just can't accept paying that much per model.

Pages from the Black Books – The Word Bearers

join us next week when we focus on the Space Wolves – the Emperor’s lap dogs/hunting hounds (depending on your point of view).

I'm sure some SOS are coming at some point, probably the next eighteen months. We've literally just had another wave of Solar Auxillia.

Given how few units they have you could comfortably give them there own small book supplement at the time.

beast_gts wrote:
Pages from the Black Books – The Word Bearers

join us next week when we focus on the Space Wolves – the Emperor’s lap dogs/hunting hounds (depending on your point of view).

BorderCountess will be happy next week. She needs some more Space Wolves (as terrain for her armies).

Pages from the Black Books – The Space Wolves

join us next week when we’ll be learning more about the Traitors responsible for the Wolf Cull – the mysterious Alpha Legion.

Pages from the Black Books – The Alpha Legion

join us next week when we’ll be learning more about those other super sneaky Space Marines – the Raven Guard.

Sunday Preview – Grand Cathay Levies and Solar Auxilia reinforcements







Automatically Appended Next Post:

Each box contains four Charonite Ogryns with interchangeable weapons – six Charonite claws, two Charonite blades, two Charonite crushers, and two Charonite shredders – and cosmetic options to personalise your brutes.

This book also includes a new mission pack for Armoured Spearhead engagements, which are designed to work with armies packed to the brim with tanks and armoured vehicles. Accordingly, there are also rules for Dracosan Command Tanks and Spartan Prometheus Command Tanks, as well as the new Solar Auxilia Rapier Carriers and Charonite Ogryns.

Well, there goes all my money for the next few months.

Sounds like Ogryn gonna be expensive

Command Dracosan gonna have to do something really neat to compete with Command Russ, +1 BS won't cut it.

Whirlwind still MIA

My only hope is this release takes us 1 step closer to more LI releases - still missing loads of infantry and supertanks and such ^

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sounds like Ogryn gonna be expensive

Command Dracosan gonna have to do something really neat to compete with Command Russ, +1 BS won't cut it.

Whirlwind still MIA

Whirlwind may drop alongside the Falchion. Then we need new 30K previews again.

LI could maybe get a wave of a couple missing units for the 3 existing factions and then a Custodes set.

Well away from me books at the mo. Article mentions Charonite weapon types. I think that’s new?