Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I hope they update the PL list to match the changes.

 BuFFo wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
Tyranids got the clown mallet that makes squeaky noises.

To match the squeaky clown shoes the rules writers currently wear?

Depends. The Tyranid codex is an amazingly well written/thought out book in context to how Tyranids have been in the past. Most fluffy, engrossing, best all around codex Tyranids have ever gotten.

I'm also in the camp that holds it's best to power up weaker armies rather than punish customers for buying models. Bring everyone up, instead of knocking success down.

Ah yes never ending power creep. Eventually power level is so high then alpha strike leaves no survivors.

Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

Is this about the CP changes or something else? (I'm not disagreeing about Daemons needing buffs to remain relevant)

I am pretty mad about some details, but I think overall it is a step in the right direction. Even if free wargear upgrades are cursed as feth. S7 AP-4 D2 or S6 AP-3 D1, who can tell the difference? GW sure can't.

 Blndmage wrote:
I hope they update the PL list to match the changes.

I believe Power Level updates are an annual thing, regardless of how many times points get tweaked in the interim.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Saying 'so what if the thing that is worse costs the same as the thing that is better, deal with it!' ...just balance games by wounds count if that is the logic.

That is what I was hinting at. With a small number of units to pick from GW decided to leave strikes and interceptors at 22 and 26 pts, at the same time leaving termintors at 40. In fact all the GK points changes were done only to units that got identical changes in the marine codex aka the land raiders, flyers etc But those changes still don't make the unit useful in a GK army. I would get changes like that, if a codex was "coming soon", but it ain't. The book that exists right now is going to have to last for the next 2 years or so.

The points changes looks like mostly a step in the right direction. Not sure why they didn't touch Hail of Doom, or Harlequins, but maybe those will be addressed in the balance dataslate up today.

Even as a player who has a Death Guard army, I was rather stunned at plague marines getting all their upgrades for free now. That's a rather unbelievable number of points of upgrades now all given for free... Not sure if its just a little too much. Some competitive players out there are definitely going to try and see how far they can push this.

As many plague marines as we can field with full upgrades squeezed into 2000 points sound ... terrifying.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The points changes looks like mostly a step in the right direction. Not sure why they didn't touch Hail of Doom, or Harlequins, but maybe those will be addressed in the balance dataslate up today.

Even as a player who has a Death Guard army, I was rather stunned at plague marines getting all their upgrades for free now. That's a rather unbelievable number of points of upgrades now all given for free... Not sure if its just a little too much. Some competitive players out there are definitely going to try and see how far they can push this.

As many plague marines as we can field with full upgrades squeezed into 2000 points sound ... terrifying.

Seems like they really are trying to prepare the ground for Power Level in a future edition. I don't get why. The really annoying thing is how inconsistent it is. So Plague Marines, Tyranid Warriors and Infantry Squads get free upgrades now, but they're pretty much the only ones. Why those specifically? What's the balance reason why they need that and nobody else does? It leads to some really weird situations where you can have a 10-man PM unit with 2 plasma guns and a PF on the champion that costs less than a unit of 10 CSM Legionnaires with MoN, a single plasma gun and a PF. How does that make sense?

JakeSiren wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

Is this about the CP changes or something else? (I'm not disagreeing about Daemons needing buffs to remain relevant)

Wasn't even thinking about that but yeah Nephilim probably fethed Daemons harder than any other army. No, I'm talking about the last points update which hit the only tournament-viable builds Daemons had with barely any compensation. Nurglings are 25 fething points a model for crying out loud.

You can squeeze a ton more upgrade gear than just a power fist and 2 plasma guns into a plague marine squad. We are talking about easily 100 points or more worth of gear upgrades into a full 10 man squad.

Even a squad of just 5 plague marines can get 60 points of upgrades - now all free. (Champion takes plasma gun and power fist, 1 marine takes a blight launcher, 1 marine takes a melta gun/plasma gun, 1 takes great plague cleaver, 1 takes flail of corruption, 1 takes a mace of contagion and bubotic axe).

Either the precious gear points cost were completely out of wack and these gear upgrades were worth much less. Or now, a DG player who squeezes in 6 squads of plague marines is going to get hundreds of points worth of free upgrades. I do understand what they are trying to do. People keep on saying there is no reason to take plague marines over the DG terminators. But let's see how the pendulum swings the other way now. I am pretty sure there will be competitive DG players out there who are going to see how far they can push things with hundreds of free gear points upgrades.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
The points changes looks like mostly a step in the right direction. Not sure why they didn't touch Hail of Doom, or Harlequins, but maybe those will be addressed in the balance dataslate up today.

Why/how would Hail of Doom be addressed in a points update?

It wouldn't. If Hail of Doom is getting addressed it will be in todays dataslate

Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can squeeze a ton more upgrade gear than just a power fist and 2 plasma guns into a plague marine squad. We are talking about easily 100 points or more worth of gear upgrades into a full 10 man squad.

I'm fully aware. I was simply trying to make as close a comparison as possible to show how stupid this change is. It's so omni-dumb there are multiple ways you can achieve the same result though

There was nothing stopping GW from dropping PMs to 19 and then dropping the weapons from 10 down to 5 or 5 down to 3. Strangely enough that would have allowed 210 point 4 of the best melee weapon builds, 210 point 4 of the best ranged weapon builds and all kinds of funky middling builds with a variety of weapons. Best part of that would no one sitting on bolter PMs would feel like a chump for owning them because at least they were cheaper if you just wanted cheaper.

Nah, the chump would still feel like a chump because now their plague marines are cheaper and now they need to buy more stuff to fit into the army, which may include more Plague Marines.

Anyone remember in 7th when AdMech armies got to take all their upgrades for free and how broken that was?

Yeah. Yeah...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Anyone remember in 7th when AdMech armies got to take all their upgrades for free and how broken that was?

Yeah. Yeah...

Well this time it's different because GW has changed and we're in the Bestest Edition Ever!!

I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

 Void__Dragon wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Real cool that after nerfing Daemons for no reason they've proceeded to lower the points of exactly no codex units. Games Workshop sucks cock.

Is this about the CP changes or something else? (I'm not disagreeing about Daemons needing buffs to remain relevant)

Wasn't even thinking about that but yeah Nephilim probably fethed Daemons harder than any other army. No, I'm talking about the last points update which hit the only tournament-viable builds Daemons had with barely any compensation. Nurglings are 25 fething points a model for crying out loud.

I hear you. Since the Codex dropped Daemons best units are mostly limited to Greater Daemons and Troops (some exceptions exist such as Flamers of Tzeentch and Beasts of Nurgle). With the increase in shots and attacks, troops just wilt away without being able to do anything, leaving only Greater Daemons to carry the army. It makes for bland list design. Even in casual games taking anything else just feels bad.

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

Nah, it makes sense if GW wants people to use Plague Marines. Before the update PMs were garbage. At least now they can do something else than be very expensive action monkeys.

EightFoldPath wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

A few other units have had the same treatment, e.g. Black Templar Primaris Crusaders get everything but one upgrade for free now.

Someone has noticed the Ork Kustom Jobs aren't costed out in their section (making them free) but that does look like an oversight. Or is it?

Oh, the on-going problem with this format. Did they forget, is it free or is it no longer an option?

Seriously, its a digital document. Include everything and enter a 0 if its free. No ambiguity.

Voss wrote:

Seriously, its a digital document. Include everything and enter a 0. No ambiguity.

I do not object to that.

JakeSiren wrote:
I hear you. Since the Codex dropped Daemons best units are mostly limited to Greater Daemons and Troops (some exceptions exist such as Flamers of Tzeentch and Beasts of Nurgle). With the increase in shots and attacks, troops just wilt away without being able to do anything, leaving only Greater Daemons to carry the army. It makes for bland list design. Even in casual games taking anything else just feels bad.

Greater Daemons are only worth taking when you spend a CP to make them Exalted, and even then only Keepers of Secrets and one specifically fully kitted out exalted Lord of Change. And Be'lakor I guess.

Nephilim has now made it so that you only have six CP to start with, and now you have to use CP to buy even your warlord's first WT and relic. Which means that Exalted Lord of Change? Now costs 3 CP on his own to field. And now you can't actually take the CP tax to add a new detachment because you only start with like six fething CP and you want like three Keepers of Secrets with Exalted traits.

And what do Daemons get in the point update or the new field manual? Nothing. Not a goddamn thing.

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

I know I won't use them on the principle of the gak dataslate. I don't care if everything is free, the unit itself is a goddamn mess and GW thinks they should be rewarded via going the PL route making all the upgrades free.

 Eldarsif wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

Nah, it makes sense if GW wants people to use Plague Marines. Before the update PMs were garbage. At least now they can do something else than be very expensive action monkeys.

Agree. You kind of always want upgrades on your plague marines, and it's one of the few units where there aren't really any weapons that stand out above all others. No matter how you equip your dudes, you aren't going to end up with vastly more powerful unit and all upgrades worth taking were 10 points before anyways.

For all the other options, you would never, ever spend even a single point - icons, power fists and axes come to mind. Making those cost 0 points is perfectly fine.

In the end, it's effectively a drop of about 30 for any unit of 5 and a drop of 50 for any unit of 10, sprinkled with "your shooty unit can have melee weapons and your melee unit can bring meltas and flamers".
Which pretty much was what these guys needed - had they dropped the same amount of points of the plague marines themselves, they would have just been reduced to super-cheap 75 point objective campers with 0AP bolters.
In the end, the wargear isn't actually free. That unit with PF/plasma champion, plasma gunner, blight launcher, flail and greater cleaver isn't undercosted at 105 points, and it's absolutely not worth 165.

It's a rather decent solution to plague marines being too expensive with gear and not powerful enough without it.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

Doohicky wrote:
I'm still thinking that PMs all upgrades free has to be an oversight/mistake and will be corrected.

Even for GW it seems to far and is inconsistent with everything else. I think it's just shoddy proof reading.

But then again... who knows

Nah, it makes sense if GW wants people to use Plague Marines. Before the update PMs were garbage. At least now they can do something else than be very expensive action monkeys.

Agree. You kind of always want upgrades on your plague marines, and it's one of the few units where there aren't really any weapons that stand out above all others. No matter how you equip your dudes, you aren't going to end up with vastly more powerful unit and all upgrades worth taking were 10 points before anyways.

For all the other options, you would never, ever spend even a single point - icons, power fists and axes come to mind. Making those cost 0 points is perfectly fine.

In the end, it's effectively a drop of about 30 for any unit of 5 and a drop of 50 for any unit of 10, sprinkled with "your shooty unit can have melee weapons and your melee unit can bring meltas and flamers".
Which pretty much was what these guys needed - had they dropped the same amount of points of the plague marines themselves, they would have just been reduced to super-cheap 75 point objective campers with 0AP bolters.
In the end, the wargear isn't actually free. That unit with PF/plasma champion, plasma gunner, blight launcher, flail and greater cleaver isn't undercosted at 105 points, and it's absolutely not worth 165.

It's a rather decent solution to plague marines being too expensive with gear and not powerful enough without it.

Barebones Plague Marines UP? They need a price reduction. They didn't get that.

Taking an upgrade is mandatory? The mandatory upgrades needed a price increase. They didn't get that.

The remaining upgrades aren't worth it? They needed a price decrease. They got that.

So GW's solution made two problems worse and solved one, that is gak design. This would only be okay in Dawn of War or if the game was only played on Tabletop Simulator.

I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.
They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

There's a very good game-related reason why making all their upgrades free is a terrible idea:

There's no reason to never take the absolute best weapons possible, and every upgrade possible. You lose nothing by doing so. You're not making a choice, as you're not paying for anything, so you might as well take the best combo of everything. It is inherently imbalanced, as it means that taking anything that isn't the best possible combo is worthless, as you're paying the same points anyway.

It's transposing the inherent imbalance of Power Levels into the Points system. Doesn't matter what unit it applies to, or how much "better" it makes Plague Marines. It's a bad way to design an upgrade system, whether it's stinky Marines, Guardsmen or Tyranid Warriors.

Again I go back to 7th Ed, where AdMech got all their upgrades for free. This was very much considered one of the worst formation rules in the game. Another one gave Marines all their transports for free. That was worse.

 Jidmah wrote:
I think you didn't understand my post.

Barebone plague marines don't need to be a thing, they aren't rank and file dorks like intercessors or guardsmen but an elite unit like vanguard veterans, chosen or nobz.

Vanguard Veterans with chainswords and Nobz with choppas should be viable as well. Look at me, I'm such a radical. Plague Marines are rank and file dorks by the way and Infantry Squads have the exact same rules for equipping them, are you going to tell me those aren't rank and file dorks either?

They also didn't go up in price, so you are just flat out wrong in that regard.

Pts-efficiency is relative, that's why Harlequins and Custodes were good at the start of 9th, their points stayed mostly the same while the points costs of everyone else rose. If the points cost of Plague Marines with plasma guns go down while the points cost of Plague Marines with bolters stay the same the pts-efficiency ratio between the two options changes.

To put it simple, plague marine didn't work. They do now. They solved all the problems, people just don't like he solution for non-game related reasons.

They work if you have the right gear equipped, otherwise they don't. Miniatures are part of the game. Playing with paper cutouts or on Tabletop Simulator is a bad replacement and proxies can be complicated, especially with the wonky 9th ed rules for equipping a squad.