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Alright - this is my "So you think you can kill me?" list.

Abaddoo
MoP, Pact & Mutate
Priest, 6+++ & transhit

5 Legionaries, Tome, MoT, Diabolic, Skeins
2x5 Legionaries, ML

10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Warp's Malice ( 4 shot MW pistol )
10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Black Rune ( -1 to wound )
5 Rubrics, WF Pistol, 4x WF
Helbrute, ML, Plasma, MoT
Helbrute, MM, Fist, MoT

Vindicator


I haven't really thought much about the mission mechanics, but the premise is just making a bunch of silly hard to kill models.

One one side there are the Chosen backed up by the Apostle with a 6+++ and transhit ( 2 CP to fuel is tough, but maybe worthwhile ). The other squad gets a Legionaries unit to hand out a 4++ along with a -1 to wound. Both MoT so when in cover with AoC hopefully they'll take a long time to bring down. MoP brings back models and hands out +1T.

I have to lose four models before needing to test and with the Icon a failed test always means just one extra model.

I dunno...seems fun.

So, I'm still trying to process this massive book. So many layers of buffs to apply. I'm thinking of running Word Bearers, wouldn't mind Emperor's Children but not buying Noise Marines. Corsairs
and Creations of Bile have decent traits and not much else. Aside from a Master of Possession, I'm thinking of a Disco Lord with Flames of Spite and UL'O'CCA(undivided daemons weapon). I assume the trait and the daemon weapon stack MWs?

Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Using a Spearhead I can kinda make the list I ran back in the day, and with a few extra things tacked on (Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and a Venomcrawler!).

Basically:

DP w/Wings + MoT (Prescience)
Warpsmith w/Hammer
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
Helbrute w/TL-Las + ML + MoT
Helbrute w/Reaper AC + Scourge + MoS
Venomcrawler
Defiler
Defiler
Havocs w/4 ACs
Havocs w/4 MLs
Oblit
Oblit

Should Twin-Linked flamers get Dx+4 hits, rather than just the +2? Seems right to me, even though it is 100% unlikely to be supported by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

Rubric marines with bolters and pop daemon shell is nice too.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Alright - this is my "So you think you can kill me?" list.

Abaddoo
MoP, Pact & Mutate
Priest, 6+++ & transhit

5 Legionaries, Tome, MoT, Diabolic, Skeins
2x5 Legionaries, ML

10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Warp's Malice ( 4 shot MW pistol )
10 Chosen, MoT, Icon, Black Rune ( -1 to wound )
5 Rubrics, WF Pistol, 4x WF
Helbrute, ML, Plasma, MoT
Helbrute, MM, Fist, MoT

Vindicator


I haven't really thought much about the mission mechanics, but the premise is just making a bunch of silly hard to kill models.

One one side there are the Chosen backed up by the Apostle with a 6+++ and transhit ( 2 CP to fuel is tough, but maybe worthwhile ). The other squad gets a Legionaries unit to hand out a 4++ along with a -1 to wound. Both MoT so when in cover with AoC hopefully they'll take a long time to bring down. MoP brings back models and hands out +1T.

I have to lose four models before needing to test and with the Icon a failed test always means just one extra model.

I dunno...seems fun.

But why Chosen over Terminators?

What are peoples thoughts on a Mark of Slaanesh Helbrute with melta and hammer? Looks like a good platform to just point at something scary and then use Murderous Pefection and/or Fire Frenzy to score either lots of hits, or max damage on their D6 damage weapons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Using a Spearhead I can kinda make the list I ran back in the day, and with a few extra things tacked on (Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and a Venomcrawler!).

Basically:

DP w/Wings + MoT (Prescience)
Warpsmith w/Hammer
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
Helbrute w/TL-Las + ML + MoT
Helbrute w/Reaper AC + Scourge + MoS
Venomcrawler
Defiler
Defiler
Havocs w/4 ACs
Havocs w/4 MLs
Oblit
Oblit

Should Twin-Linked flamers get Dx+4 hits, rather than just the +2? Seems right to me, even though it is 100% unlikely to be supported by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?

I think twin flamers would be +2 not +4 as it is just one flame weapon profile.

Oh I agree, but I think it's one of those weird things where twin-linked weapons get double shots, yet that's not accounted for in this new rule, meaning two heavy flamers are more burny than one twin-heavy flamer, despite essentially being the same thing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Using a Spearhead I can kinda make the list I ran back in the day, and with a few extra things tacked on (Helbrutes, Warpsmith, and a Venomcrawler!).

Basically:

DP w/Wings + MoT (Prescience)
Warpsmith w/Hammer
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
6 Legionaries w/Lascannon
Helbrute w/TL-Las + ML + MoT
Helbrute w/Reaper AC + Scourge + MoS
Venomcrawler
Defiler
Defiler
Havocs w/4 ACs
Havocs w/4 MLs
Oblit
Oblit

Should Twin-Linked flamers get Dx+4 hits, rather than just the +2? Seems right to me, even though it is 100% unlikely to be supported by the rules.

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?

Wow, that's a surprisingly large number of high strength guns! Interesting list!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Weirdly I've been playing with an Iron Warriors list.

Why no MoP ? The malefic discipline is really good when you have daemons/daemon engines.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What if you don't want or like Rubric Marines?

Then you miss out on a very good unit.

 p5freak wrote:
Why no MoP ? The malefic discipline is really good when you have daemons/daemon engines.

Oh I know they're good. They finally made the Master of Possession worth taking. That's why him, and Oblits, will be the first things overcorrected with double- or even triple-dip nerfs in the first FAQ/points adjustments. Just like Maleceptors. Best not to get attached.

Besides, Warpsmith's are more Iron Warrior-y.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
So how does this putting two relics on the same character thing from the opening post work? Is that a new option from Nephilim (or something)?

KirvesUK wrote:
Thanks Eldenfirefly for validating some of what I suspected. I've played games with DG before where my expensive block of terminators have sometimes been left in a corner twiddling their thumbs, so I'm keen to avoid that.

I would also love to know what a Land Raider with Abaddon and 8 possessed does to a mid -table.

Get blown up before it arrives probably Maybe it'll survive if you buff it to high heaven. But at least it'll have every single AT weapon of your opponent pointed at it for a turn.

Get blown up before it arrives? The Land Raider ? Chaos Land Raiders are now T9 naturally (very tough!). There are definitely some armies that could do it with the right mix of guns, but I think that there are far more armies that can't destroy a chaos landraider on turn 1 now.

Well, that opens up a lot of possibilities. That means I can have a durable AND deadly warlord. Let's see how crazy I can make my IW DP, Discolord and Termie Lord. Although with the Axe of the Forge Master, Insidium and the Warpsmith datasheet I think I can finally turn him into a proper Warsmith instead of just a generic Lord.

As for the LR: yeah I know it has T9, which is very nice. I still have trouble believing it'll be able to withstand a round of AT fire from the average 2k army though... but maybe that's just me still being used to 8e flimsiness, I must admit I haven't been able to play a single game ever since COVID started.

Oh, you are playing Iron Warriors? That's even better. The Iron Warriors legion trait is ignore cover and enemy cannot reroll wounds against you (In the balance dataslate). And this includes all your vehicles too! So, if his anti tank gun fails to wound your T9 land raider, he can't even reroll it! Iron Warrior's Land Raiders are extra hard to bring down!

Yeah, IW Discolord with Unyielding Metal, Black Rune of Damnation (I think the Discolord can take that?) and Mark of Nurgle. S7 or under only wounds on 6+ non-rerollable, S8+ on 4+ non-rerollable. Slap unholy Vigor on it when targeted by heavy AT fire to reduce that wound roll even further to 5+. W9 2+/5++/5+++. Good luck getting rid of that

 p5freak wrote:
Every CSM player should have 10 rubric marines with warpflamers, because 9D6+18 autohits. Not to mention all the buffs you can stack on them.

Why not 3 10x Rubrics in Dreadclaws.

o.O

Expensive, but damn...

Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.

Yeah, my mistake, but still pretty useful, especially given the existence of stuff like Warp Marked and other +1 to wound options.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.

Hence why I brought up how useful is it for a TAAC list to try to negate S4 and S8 getting a +1 to wound. I wager not a lot.

Have tried a few games now testing out different units, all as black legion. The black legion trait is good. Some observations.

1. Abaddon is overkill alongside a big expensive unit like terminators. Too much investment of points into the center.

2. I am loving the Chaos Land Raider. Super durable, hard to kill. Can ferry troops up the board, and has a fairly powerful anti tank shooting in the form of its 4 soulshatter lascannon shots. I rate it over running Predator tanks.

3. CSM long range anti-tank shooting is kind of lackluster. (Even if we are running a LR). Maybe a IW list will be different. Not sure.

4. Our melee is impressive. We are a melee army now.

5. Raptors feel lacklustor. Same durability as legionaires. Same damage output as well. The only benefit is their jump pack 12 inch move. Given the crowded FA slot. There are other options.

6. Chaos Bikes are nice. 14 inch move, strategem to make them -1 to hit. Go tzeentch for AP1 mass combi bolters, and make that AP2 at 30 inch range with daemon shell. And they can help with secondaries. Rely on them quite a lot.

7. Our secondaries require a lot of thinking and list building around. Build your list a certain way, and you will find some secondaries very difficult to do. And given that most of our CSM secondaries aren't that great. That would be a problem. For the Dark gods is decent for certain maps, but again, requires some thought into list building. I think this will hold back CSM from being top tier in tournaments. Not having easy strong CSM secondaries is going to be a disadvantage when running CSM armies against other armies with easy and good codex secondaries.

8. The new chaos spawn is great too. Yet another good contender for an already crowded spot within fast attack.

9. Most of the Elite slot units are all above average to great. Luckily we can run 6 elites in a batallion. Its more of an issue of points than anything else.

Overall, I have had a lot of fun in the past few games playing our 9th ed codex and look forward to many more different builds and trying out different legions too.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
2. I am loving the Chaos Land Raider. Super durable, hard to kill. Can ferry troops up the board, and has a fairly powerful anti tank shooting in the form of its 4 soulshatter lascannon shots. I rate it over running Predator tanks.

270 for Land Raider with Havoc Launcher.

270 for 3 man Obliterator squad.

Obliterators seem to have a bit more support/buff/resiliency potential, but it's close enough that there's a discussion to be had. Obviously there's a 'why not both?' school of thought, but the fact that there's even a comparison is a step in the right direction.

Now update those tanks for everyone else.

Wchich Land Raider? Vanilla, Achilles or Proteus? ^^

Eldenfirefly wrote:
5. Raptors feel lacklustor. Same durability as legionaires. Same damage output as well. The only benefit is their jump pack 12 inch move. Given the crowded FA slot. There are other options.

8. The new chaos spawn is great too. Yet another good contender for an already crowded spot within fast attack.

My opinion on CSM Fast Attack:

In my reality, there are no CSM biker models. A tangential effect to my inability to see Finecast models, I think. So I ignore the datasheet out of hand.

I think the Raptors are fine, but too many points. They are Fast Attack, without ObSec and less options than Legionaries. I honestly think they could be the same price as Legionaries, given those limitations. However, I know GW doesn't think that way, so 1 more point than Legionaries would make them a more comfortable pick to me. As they are going to be removed pretty fast. Additionally, most legions don't have jump pack HQs to buff them up anymore, taking some of their strength away. However, before this codex my Raptors were always in the running for MVP, as 9th really values speed. I feel like they'll do pretty well when I run a Worldclaimer and Raptor focused list.

Chaos Spawn are wonderful for the price, but I don't know if they find a home in my lists. I only have the basic 2 and haven't got around to rolling bits into greenstuff yet. Additionally, their 7" Move isn't enough from what I want from my Fast Attack. I could easily see a CSM player casting Warp Time on a squad of 5 for early objective claiming. Even if the Spawn don't hold their ground, the resources it would take to remove them is going to create a lot of breathing room for the rest of the CSM army.

Warp Talons are a bit of an X factor for me. They've almost always suffer the Raptors fragility (that 5++ doesn't seem to do much for me) while being less flexible as a melee only unit and more points to field. My game this weekend, I am going to give them a go, but even with several elements capable of giving them buffs, I highly doubt my Warp Talons are going to be any near close enough to receive them.

The buffs for Raptors and Warp Talons (and plenty of other units) are of the pick one unit within 6"/18" to get X for the whole battle round variety.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Why no MoP ? The malefic discipline is really good when you have daemons/daemon engines.

Oh I know they're good. They finally made the Master of Possession worth taking. That's why him, and Oblits, will be the first things overcorrected with double- or even triple-dip nerfs in the first FAQ/points adjustments. Just like Maleceptors. Best not to get attached.

Besides, Warpsmith's are more Iron Warrior-y.

This book is much less likely to get nerf batted like Tyranids. It is early days but Tyranids might still be the strongest codex right now, while I think CSM will slot in around the CK/IK level. Similar to Thousand Sons they will probably get very little in the way of nerfs. Perhaps the -1 to wound Rune will get FAQ'd, maybe the MoP will get +15 points in 6 months time.

90 point Obliterators still look a bit pricey compared to other book similar optionss.
Twin Lascannon Ironstrider - 85pts.
Talos - 100pts.
MM Paragon - 80pts.
Plasma/RR Broadside - 95pts.
But they don't look terrible alongside, which is presumably what they are aiming for.

I wouldn't be shocked if they brought in a "you can't pact of flesh Obliterators" rule. But I don't think Oblits are obviously overpowered at 90 points as they stand.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Note: Mark Of Nurgle and the Black Rune do NOT stack normally.

-2 to-wound is reduced to -1. It's only useful to negate a +1 to-wound.

Hence why I brought up how useful is it for a TAAC list to try to negate S4 and S8 getting a +1 to wound. I wager not a lot.

If BA become the one and only SM faction maybe. Is definatly meta dependant. Damn I thought I read that mods did stack but now looking it up again I see they dont. Tzeench or Sla def the way to go then. If BL you can use the strat to already get strikes first and +1A so it might SLA might be redundant unless you really gunning for that 5+FNP.

I can see arguments for both TZ and SLA in a BL and WB list. Damn tho lol. TransHit if nurgle. Never better than a 3+ to wound. 5++/5+++ if SLA or 4++ if TZ.

WB SLA will strike first when charged and have rerolls to hit.

The issue becomes that this unit is so damn punchy and durable but slow that opponent will do whatever they can to stay away. Will be difficult for them to earn points back. Warp time or some way to give advance and charge will be needed. If BL you can use the strat to give Red Corsair trait to the unit and allow them to advance and charge for a turn.

Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
5. Raptors feel lacklustor. Same durability as legionaires. Same damage output as well. The only benefit is their jump pack 12 inch move. Given the crowded FA slot. There are other options.

8. The new chaos spawn is great too. Yet another good contender for an already crowded spot within fast attack.

My opinion on CSM Fast Attack:

In my reality, there are no CSM biker models. A tangential effect to my inability to see Finecast models, I think. So I ignore the datasheet out of hand.

I think the Raptors are fine, but too many points. They are Fast Attack, without ObSec and less options than Legionaries. I honestly think they could be the same price as Legionaries, given those limitations. However, I know GW doesn't think that way, so 1 more point than Legionaries would make them a more comfortable pick to me. As they are going to be removed pretty fast. Additionally, most legions don't have jump pack HQs to buff them up anymore, taking some of their strength away. However, before this codex my Raptors were always in the running for MVP, as 9th really values speed. I feel like they'll do pretty well when I run a Worldclaimer and Raptor focused list.

Chaos Spawn are wonderful for the price, but I don't know if they find a home in my lists. I only have the basic 2 and haven't got around to rolling bits into greenstuff yet. Additionally, their 7" Move isn't enough from what I want from my Fast Attack. I could easily see a CSM player casting Warp Time on a squad of 5 for early objective claiming. Even if the Spawn don't hold their ground, the resources it would take to remove them is going to create a lot of breathing room for the rest of the CSM army.

Warp Talons are a bit of an X factor for me. They've almost always suffer the Raptors fragility (that 5++ doesn't seem to do much for me) while being less flexible as a melee only unit and more points to field. My game this weekend, I am going to give them a go, but even with several elements capable of giving them buffs, I highly doubt my Warp Talons are going to be any near close enough to receive them.

You forgot about Venom crawlers. They are really good especially for their points cost. They are also the perfect screen for the Lord Disco.

I am not sure Raptors have a place except for maybe a min squad with some melta to DS and take backfield objectives. They can't have an Icon, so ten with Khorne can't get the extra -1 to the chain-swords which is what makes a 10 man Legionary squad with chain-swords look so tasty. If you are running them for a close combat beat stick, I think Warptalons are much better even with the significant increase in cost. But with only a 5 man squad it is a difference of 35 points and that is with the Raptors running bare, so once you put guns on them, only like 15 points. And 5 warptalons can give most units the business, as I have seen.

Raptors just don't have much a place outside Black Legion since they have an actual Lord to catch up to them, but one can argue Red Corsairs can SLIGHTLY catch up since an advance + charge, even at a longer distance, is still probable.

Also it depends on how they can be loaded up. If they get 2 special weapons per 5 (and not just two in general) you can use them like you would Legionaires would want to be used.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

But why Chosen over Terminators?

Cheaper though I also don't own enough terminators yet. Also, icon.

It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. (He also gets to reroll his charge because of his warlord trait) So that's a 9 inch + rerollable 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!

Also, let's say with Abaddon crushing what he touched on turn 2, and the rest of your forces in that flank will dominate that flank. So, you no longer need Abaddon on that flank. Turn 3, he can move back the way he came from and embark back into LR and the LR can then move 10 inches towards the last holdout flank. Turn 4, once again, Abaddon will have a disembark 9 inch + 2d6 threat range into the last holdout flank. The tactical flexibility is just insane.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
It feels like Abaddon goes really well with a Landraider. Consider this jank we can do. He starts 9 inches from the land raider on the left flank. The LR is in the center. So, your opponent deploys chaff on the left to stall Abby and more of his forces on the right flank. Turn 1, Abaddon moves within 3 inches of the LR and embarks on it. The LR then moves straight up the center 10 inches.

Turn 2, Abaddon disembarks on the right side of the Landraider. (The landraider has a big base). And he moves 6 inches diagonal and charges. So that's a 9 inch + 2d6 inch threat range. If he gets into combat, pile in 3 inches, destroys what he touches, and consolidates 3 inches. Now he is literally deep in the right flank of your opponent, where your opponent didn't expect him to be!

Abaddon can advance and charge with Red Corsairs through 'Confluence of Traitors', right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CSM beat Levi Nids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZrjhXNhesM&ab_channel=WatchersIntheDark

I haven't watched the whole battle yet to get anything from it. The CSM list is CoB and somewhat unusual.

What is Confluence of Traitors ?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

But why Chosen over Terminators?

Cheaper though I also don't own enough terminators yet. Also, icon.

Icon is just additional AP on the guns though right? For the cost, I'd argue just getting double shots from the Terminators per model is just way better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
What is Confluence of Traitors ?

Give a Black Legion unit the Legion rules for another Legion I think