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 dan2026 wrote:
Why are people thinking Furies have been dropped from the book?

I believe it was mentioned in the leak video that they were gone.

 Fayric wrote:
Edit: one of the biggest problem with chaos daemons is that its basicly 4 minor armies with just a handfull of units each. Need more units that dont have a fixed patron god.

I agree by in large. The other issue is that Chaos Daemons are top heavy. HQ choices outnumber all other slots combined!

Look at Mono-Khorne. 1 Troop, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy support, and 1 fortification. HQs? You have 3 named characters, heralds of various mounting, and greater daemons. Tzeentch is about the same, however it's worse for Nurgle and Slaanesh who have recently had strong releases that focused on new characters.

I would like GW to expand the non-character options, and unaligned units are a great possibility for this.

JakeSiren wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Why are people thinking Furies have been dropped from the book?

I believe it was mentioned in the leak video that they were gone.

 Fayric wrote:
Edit: one of the biggest problem with chaos daemons is that its basicly 4 minor armies with just a handfull of units each. Need more units that dont have a fixed patron god.

I agree by in large. The other issue is that Chaos Daemons are top heavy. HQ choices outnumber all other slots combined!

Look at Mono-Khorne. 1 Troop, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy support, and 1 fortification. HQs? You have 3 named characters, heralds of various mounting, and greater daemons. Tzeentch is about the same, however it's worse for Nurgle and Slaanesh who have recently had strong releases that focused on new characters.

I would like GW to expand the non-character options, and unaligned units are a great possibility for this.

And at the same time the detachment rules make it hard to even field the HQ you need. Back in 8th edition you could atleast take a supreme command detachment so the HQ heavy list could be put to use. These days you struggle to field all the HQ you need. Greater daemons is a must have, but they are so squishy you need minimum 2 of them to draw enemy fire. But you also need heralds too make your crappy lesser daemons usefull. And the lesser daemons is to expencive in points to build up enough detachments for the HQ you need. In the end you end up with a boring compromise that struggle to handle even the basic units of the enemy.

...when did Khorne gain a fortification in 40k?

 Dysartes wrote:
...when did Khorne gain a fortification in 40k?

Some time in 8th edition we got the Skull Altar. It's just really, really bad.

JakeSiren wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
Why are people thinking Furies have been dropped from the book?

I believe it was mentioned in the leak video that they were gone.

 Fayric wrote:
Edit: one of the biggest problem with chaos daemons is that its basicly 4 minor armies with just a handfull of units each. Need more units that dont have a fixed patron god.

I agree by in large. The other issue is that Chaos Daemons are top heavy. HQ choices outnumber all other slots combined!

Look at Mono-Khorne. 1 Troop, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, 1 Heavy support, and 1 fortification. HQs? You have 3 named characters, heralds of various mounting, and greater daemons. Tzeentch is about the same, however it's worse for Nurgle and Slaanesh who have recently had strong releases that focused on new characters.

I would like GW to expand the non-character options, and unaligned units are a great possibility for this.

Which leak video is that?
The rumours in that started this thread make no mention of Furies.

 Cheex wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
...when did Khorne gain a fortification in 40k?

Some time in 8th edition we got the Skull Altar. It's just really, really bad.

Huh - I completely missed that, and it doesn't show under Daemons for 40k in the webstore, which doesn't help matters.

Shame - I quite like the look of the kit.

 Fayric wrote:
I would love to se more daemon engines for chaos daemons -as a posibility to get unalligned units that work for any daemon army.
Lore for the mysterious masters of the daemon forges, that trick banished daemons to accept an eternity as slaves, trapped in daemon engines as a quick way to get remanifested in realspace is worth expanding on I think.


Edit: one of the biggest problem with chaos daemons is that its basicly 4 minor armies with just a handfull of units each. Need more units that dont have a fixed patron god.

GW could fix a lot of problems that Chaos Daemons have if Daemon Engines could be fielded as part of Daemon armies. It used to be so back in the 6th edition era, that things like Greater Blight Drones, Brass Scorpions, etc. were both Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon units. They filled a lot of holes in the Daemons roster, especially if you were trying to play Khorne or Nurgle armies as they had more daemon engine support than Slaanesh/Tzeetnch... but then 8th edition came around and they decided that only Chaos Space Marines should be able to field Daemon Engines and its been downhill ever since.

IMO, fixing this mistake would go a long way to making Daemon armies of all flavors more playable. The Defiler, Venomcrawler, Heldrake, Forgefiend, and Maulerfiend as unaligned Daemons could slot into any monoGod army and provide a range of capabilities that monoGod armies currently lack. Add in the god-specific and Forgeworld daemon engines like Greater Blight Drones, Bloat Drones, Blight Haulers, etc. and monoGod daemon armies generally become more competitive. Slaanesh and Tzeentch are a bit under-represented in this regard, but at this point I think Slaanesh has more options to mess around with anyway thanks to some of the additional AoS support they've received, whereas Tzeentch daemons are a bit option starved.

ALSO, nobody has yet been able to explain to me why the feth Mutalith Vortex Beasts and Slaughterbrutes are not/should not be Daemons.

I'm hoping we'll see alot of the incidental character units (bilepiper, enrapturess and similar) move to the Elite slot, would free up some detachment space.

that or some special way of taking not Great Daemon HQs as multiple in a slot.

In olden times, Heralds (which is what they used to call things like the Bloodmaster, Changecaster, Fateskimmer, Fluxmaster, Poxbringer, Skullmaster, etc.) were 2 per HQ slot. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the current Herald options re-classified and moved into the Elites slot, personally. I think if they just went back to having one Herald per God in the HQ slot and put the rest of the Heralds in the elite slot it would probably help army building a lot.

 Geifer wrote:
If I recall correctly the Gaunt Summoner after its introduction in Silver Tower was put in the Everchosen faction before it got put in the Tzeentch book.Whereas, as mentioned in a post above, the new daemonic Slaanesh models were ported immediately(ish) after they came out for Hedonites.

Perhaps that's how GW sees it, Gaunt Summoner as a councilor to Archaon and therefore fully an AoS model whereas the new Slaanesh Daemons were always meant to be dual system.

Granted, that's a bit of wishful thinking because I want Slaanesh to get as much attention as possible.

The 9 Gaunt Summoners by their very fluff directly serve Archaon, so I can see them keeping as an AoS only thing.

 dan2026 wrote:
Which leak video is that?
The rumours in that started this thread make no mention of Furies.

The video linked at the start of this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=K_Oy-Mpg6vY. Watch from the 25:20 mark. Wallace says that furies will no longer be in the Daemons Codex.

chaos0xomega wrote:
In olden times, Heralds (which is what they used to call things like the Bloodmaster, Changecaster, Fateskimmer, Fluxmaster, Poxbringer, Skullmaster, etc.) were 2 per HQ slot. I wouldn't mind seeing some of the current Herald options re-classified and moved into the Elites slot, personally. I think if they just went back to having one Herald per God in the HQ slot and put the rest of the Heralds in the elite slot it would probably help army building a lot.

I would be surprised if we get HQ slot efficiency. Space Wolves have historically had similar benefits, but haven't for 8th/9th. Moving some of the heralds to Elite would be nice though. Things like Sloppity / Spoilpox / Infernal Enrapturess would be prime candidates IMO. I'm not sure what one might move around for Tzeentch / Khorne. I don't expect this to happen though.

JakeSiren wrote:
The video linked at the start of this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=K_Oy-Mpg6vY. Watch from the 25:20 mark. Wallace says that furies will no longer be in the Daemons Codex.

Cool. My Chaos forces lose even more units.

chaos0xomega wrote:
GW could fix a lot of problems that Chaos Daemons have if Daemon Engines could be fielded as part of Daemon armies. It used to be so back in the 6th edition era, that things like Greater Blight Drones, Brass Scorpions, etc. were both Chaos Space Marine and Chaos Daemon units. They filled a lot of holes in the Daemons roster, especially if you were trying to play Khorne or Nurgle armies as they had more daemon engine support than Slaanesh/Tzeetnch... but then 8th edition came around and they decided that only Chaos Space Marines should be able to field Daemon Engines and its been downhill ever since.

IMO, fixing this mistake would go a long way to making Daemon armies of all flavors more playable. The Defiler, Venomcrawler, Heldrake, Forgefiend, and Maulerfiend as unaligned Daemons could slot into any monoGod army and provide a range of capabilities that monoGod armies currently lack. Add in the god-specific and Forgeworld daemon engines like Greater Blight Drones, Bloat Drones, Blight Haulers, etc. and monoGod daemon armies generally become more competitive. Slaanesh and Tzeentch are a bit under-represented in this regard, but at this point I think Slaanesh has more options to mess around with anyway thanks to some of the additional AoS support they've received, whereas Tzeentch daemons are a bit option starved.

ALSO, nobody has yet been able to explain to me why the feth Mutalith Vortex Beasts and Slaughterbrutes are not/should not be Daemons.

Wasn't there something about most Daemons within Daemon engines being forced into their role, rather than it being by choice, and most of the DEs being created by Dark Mech or CSMs?

No argument on the MVB and Slaughterbrutes, though - can't see the harm in adding them.

Having less crappy rules for the Soul Grinders (move an shoot without penalty like... Soul Grinders in AoS!)
Could help.

I would like Mounted (on steed) Slaanesh heralds to make a come back.

Soul Grinders can move and shoot without penalty already, though. They can even shoot in combat!

They have to do something about letting you take multiple minor HQs per slot.
Otherwise how can Daemons even function?

They could move a lot of the current HQs to Elites which would help.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Geifer wrote:
If I recall correctly the Gaunt Summoner after its introduction in Silver Tower was put in the Everchosen faction before it got put in the Tzeentch book.Whereas, as mentioned in a post above, the new daemonic Slaanesh models were ported immediately(ish) after they came out for Hedonites.

Perhaps that's how GW sees it, Gaunt Summoner as a councilor to Archaon and therefore fully an AoS model whereas the new Slaanesh Daemons were always meant to be dual system.

Granted, that's a bit of wishful thinking because I want Slaanesh to get as much attention as possible.

The 9 Gaunt Summoners by their very fluff directly serve Archaon, so I can see them keeping as an AoS only thing.

Aren't the Gaunt Summoners mortals/pseudo-daemons though? The fluff for them previously said that they were like the most dedicated mortal servants of Archaon/Tzeentch elevated to a sort of sub-daemon princedom as a reward. IIRC the Disciples of Tzeentch Battletom confusingly gives them both the mortals and daemons keywords.

I would be surprised if we get HQ slot efficiency. Space Wolves have historically had similar benefits, but haven't for 8th/9th. Moving some of the heralds to Elite would be nice though. Things like Sloppity / Spoilpox / Infernal Enrapturess would be prime candidates IMO. I'm not sure what one might move around for Tzeentch / Khorne. I don't expect this to happen though.

I don't expect it to happen either, but its nice to dream. Realistically, I think the most we will get is probably something like "If a Greater Daemon is your warlord then Heralds of the same God do not count as an HQ choice" type things.

Cool. My Chaos forces lose even more units.

Hopefully Furies are the only loss, I'm still stinging about the loss of my daemon engines from older editions :(

Wasn't there something about most Daemons within Daemon engines being forced into their role, rather than it being by choice, and most of the DEs being created by Dark Mech or CSMs?
No argument on the MVB and Slaughterbrutes, though - can't see the harm in adding them.

Like with many things, the fluff is inconsistent. Some sources say the daemons are forced or tricked in, others say that they do so willingly through various pacts with the dark mechanicus as they enjoy the power and destructiveness that they gain by inhabiting the various warmachines that they can be joined with, as well as relative safety/ease of corporealization vs the other means by which daemons manifest in the "real world". IIRC - daemons that are destroyed in the real world cannot reform themselves for a very long period of time (centuries? millennia?) while they more or less regenerate, and spend that time basically as a formless shape in the warp unless they are specifically summoned and bound to a mortal body. Daemons apparently aren't big on being formless shapes (except maybe Tzeentch daemons? lol) and look for opportunities to re-manifest into a more defined body ASAP - thats where the Dark Mechanicus gets willing volunteers for daemon engine-hood.

The Soul Grinder is an example of a Dark Mechanicus built daemon engine that has a semi-voluntary daemon - they get a metal body in exchange for paying a price in souls to the dark mechanicum, the daemon can't be freed from the soul grinder body until it makes good on its debt, but apparently theres an interest rate on the number of souls they need to settle their debt because the number is constantly rising and very few daemons ever reach that number and get freed. If they are destroyed before settling the debt then they more or less forced back into a daemon engine again with an even higher debt (as they have to settle their original debt, plus the cost of being interred into a new metal body, even if they didn't want to go back to the daemon engine life).

Theres also some fluff that says some daemon engines are built in the Materium and contain containment vessels and these are the ones that daemons are forced into against their will and basically beaten and tormented into behaving according to the whims of their mortal masters, but then others are built in the Immaterium by entities unknown (presumably not the Dark Mechanicus?) and are summoned to the materium through dark rituals, etc. and these contain daemons that have more willful control over themselves. The Brass Scorpion is specifically mentioned as being an example of a Warp-built daemon engine that is summoned to reality.

In any case the fluff is as GW wills it to be, and I see no real justification why it can't or shouldn't be retconned to justify them in daemon armies.

At this point I just hope Skull Cannons will have fun rules. I have three of those around.

Not Online!!! wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Faced with the prospect of keeping the Defiler or getting more Dinobots, I'll keep the Defiler.

The Dinobots are amazing, and I want a Sauropod transport one. I will die on this hill.

Please no, can't we have more demon engines along the line of the defiler and Decimator. Especially a plastic decimator?

I like the other Daemon Engines don't get me wrong, but the dinobots are awesome and we need to complete the dinosaurs represented.

chaos0xomega wrote:

I don't expect it to happen either, but its nice to dream. Realistically, I think the most we will get is probably something like "If a Greater Daemon is your warlord then Heralds of the same God do not count as an HQ choice" type things.

Many recent codexes have had the option to take slotless characters if a related unit is picked in the same detachment. In other cases characters in overloaded slots been moved to another one.
It's definitely an issue they've been paying attention to.

If they keep Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes in HQ and move all the others to Elites.
It would solve a massive problem imo.

By my count Daemons have 35 different HQs!
But only 5 Elites choices.

They have to sort this.

 dan2026 wrote:
If they keep Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes in HQ and move all the others to Elites.
It would solve a massive problem imo.

By my count Daemons have 35 different HQs!
But only 5 Elites choices.

They have to sort this.

I’d rather have a “Heralds are slotless with a Greater Daemon” or “one HQ pick, up to three Heralds”.
I often run my Nurgle without a Prince, and don’t even own a GUO.

I think a lot of the current heralds could/should be Elites choices, with each god only having a single HQ level "Lord Herald" type thing. That would fix a lot of the issues. Then make the Elite Heralds multiple per slot or a way to get slotless Heralds just to ensure access to buffs and variety, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I think a lot of the current heralds could/should be Elites choices, with each god only having a single HQ level "Lord Herald" type thing. That would fix a lot of the issues. Then make the Elite Heralds multiple per slot or a way to get slotless Heralds just to ensure access to buffs and variety, etc.

What would this Lord Herald be like?
Would it just be an upgraded statline from the regular Heralds, or what? (Not meaning to knock this idea-it seems like a solid one!)

I would like to see some upgrades on the Herald statlines-when a Marine Captain (T4, W5, 3+/4++) can take 30 Bolter hits to kill and a Herald of Nurgle (T5, W4, 6+/5++/5+++) takes only 27... Something's gone screwy. Admittedly, they're both Characters, so they shouldn't be getting shot a ton anyway, but it still irks me.

 Rihgu wrote:
Soul Grinders can move and shoot without penalty already, though. They can even shoot in combat!

My bad.
Would be interested to know why?

They're vehicles.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're vehicles.

I stand corrected.
Thank you for the answer.

 Geifer wrote:
The problem is that GW should just get over themselves and write mixed mortal and Daemon codices for each god like they do in AoS. Splitting off Daemons was a mistake for exactly that reason. The Daemon bestiary for each god was never meant to stand on its own like that.

They could give demons a rule like how Dark Eldar can run multiple patrols at no cp cost, one for each god.

I think "Demons of Chaos" works better as a faction then spiking them into the mortal factions.

A few more rumours are turning up on Discord, via reddit, all of which apparently come from the guy whose Tyranid leaks were on point:

General:
-Further confirmation of daemonic saves, including two profiles for range/melee
-GUO has 4+/5+ against range/melee.
-LoC has 3+/5+ against range/melee.
-Icons: Give the ICON keyword, which is somehow relevant to the new Warp Storm table.
-Instruments appear to give morale re-rolls.

GUO Details
-GUO has 4+/5+ against range/melee.
-T8, 22W
-GUO still has 5+++
-Vomit attack: 7", d6 auto-hits, S5, AP-2, D1.
-Bilesword has: Cleave at +1S, AP-3, Dd6, 6s to hit auto-wound; Sweep at SU, AP-3, 1D, double attacks.
-Bileblade: SU, AP-3, D2, re-roll wounds, and 'improves casting'
-Flail: 7", d3+3A, SU, AP-3, D2.
-Nurgling attacks in addition
-Bell has a resurrection-style resurrection action for Plaguebearers
-Gives Nurgle CORE re-rolls

Khorne
-'most improved'
-Most have 4+/4+ or 4+/5+ against range/melee.

Tzeentch
-3+ against ranged for most, but not all units.
-Always has a worse save against melee.


Conflicted
-Apparently another user states that Pink Horrors, Plaguebearers, and Bloodletters are all 10pts each.
-People are generally doubtful of this, at least if the other rumours of their buffs are true.

I could see 10 point troops with buffs if they drop them down to 10 max unit size.

Saves being different per gods is a cool idea. Tzeentch better vs shooting, worse vs melee. Khorne the opposite. Nurgle with the extra fnp. Slaanesh maybe a bonus to saves for advancing,?