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H.B.M.C. wrote: And what incentive are they giving people to play it?
I would argue the traits are nearly broken good, so the army needs some downsides in selection to make it work.
Harlequins had an 80% winrate, the times where balance or downsides or anything like that were of any consideration at GW are long gone.
That's silly. 40K is a pretty balanced game at this point, and GW have been responsive to balance during 9th. I would argue even too much so to the extent that actually playing the game has become a pain in the ass because of all the balance patches dotted around, but the notion GW doesn't care about balance at his point is nonsense.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And what incentive are they giving people to play it?
I would argue the traits are nearly broken good, so the army needs some downsides in selection to make it work.
Harlequins had an 80% winrate, the times where balance or downsides or anything like that were of any consideration at GW are long gone.
That's silly. 40K is a pretty balanced game at this point, and GW have been responsive to balance during 9th. I would argue even too much so to the extent that actually playing the game has become a pain in the ass because of all the balance patches dotted around, but the notion GW doesn't care about balance at his point is nonsense.
GW does care about balance - it's just that it's a very calculated business-oriented balance. For most of the 9th edition, GW would release a Codex, have it be blatantly broken with winrates in the 70% so that everyone buys into it, and then nerf it further down the line, to make room for another broken Codex and appease the playerbase with "you see, we care about balance, we changed things!" It was the case with Harlequins, Orks, AdMech, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, T'au, Custodes...
It's basically impossible for it to NOT have been a calculated plan to maximize sales at this point.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Except for Genestealer Cults, one of the most expensive armies to play, who were a lame duck.
I believe there is a level of truth to claims of 'play to win' (i.e., we know GW actively sanctioned this with the Wraith Knight) but I'm also inclined to believe GW is just pretty bad at writing rules and 'codex creep' is a byproduct of rules writers wanting to do something 'new' - but the problem is they don't go back and update previous books to be in-line with the new trends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 13:21:02
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
I think it's perfectly valid to argue that GW aren't very good at balance, and in some cases their business interests actively get away from that (culling playtesters for secrecy reasons is likely to make balance even worse).
But that is a long way from what was said, which is that no AOR should have downsides in exchange for their bonuses because GW doesn't care about balance, which is obviously untrue otherwise we wouldn't need a hundred extra free PDFs to play the game at the moment.
I don't think culling playtesters is going to make balance even worse, because it sure seems like beforehand they weren't contributing literally anything to balance, be it their fault or GW's for not listening to them.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Just as with the codexes overall, it does also seem that with the AoRs that there is more than one writer at GW and they have differing philosophies.
Maybe there is a single Chaos writer, if so, then so far he has given us 5 codexes (DG, TS, CK, CSM, Daemons) and 3 AoRs (Typhus, Tzaangors, Belakor) and all of them have been quite conservative in terms of power level. None of DG, TS, CK needed an emergency nerf Dark Eldar/AdMech/Tyranids/Harlequins style. In fact DG & TS turned out so weak they got to share in the AoC buff-a-palooza.
CSM look to be in the same boat. Similarly, the Typhus/Tzaangor AoRs have been slightly worse than their codexes.
I'd love to also talk about the merit of the Chaos codex supplements but they must have all been in the same book and it must have sunk on the way over from China or something.
The Phazer wrote: I think it's perfectly valid to argue that GW aren't very good at balance, and in some cases their business interests actively get away from that (culling playtesters for secrecy reasons is likely to make balance even worse).
But that is a long way from what was said, which is that no AOR should have downsides in exchange for their bonuses because GW doesn't care about balance, which is obviously untrue otherwise we wouldn't need a hundred extra free PDFs to play the game at the moment.
The pdf's do very good job of getting people replace previous op stuff to new. More model sales. Job done.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And what incentive are they giving people to play it?
I would argue the traits are nearly broken good, so the army needs some downsides in selection to make it work.
But compared to just running Alpha Legion with a Daemon Patrol? Absolutely not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wha-Mu-077 wrote: I don't think culling playtesters is going to make balance even worse, because it sure seems like beforehand they weren't contributing literally anything to balance, be it their fault or GW's for not listening to them.
We've gotten reports they don't listen to playtester suggestions, good or bad.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 17:46:20
Tyran wrote: I might be wrong, but Disciples of Belakor doesn't seem to have the 25% PL limit that normal Chaos soup has.
No, but based on all the other silly limitations the Disciples have, that doesn't matter. I can get a couple of squads of Nurglings or Skull Cannons with my Alpha Legion instead of needing one of each unit for each God first.
Tyran wrote: I might be wrong, but Disciples of Belakor doesn't seem to have the 25% PL limit that normal Chaos soup has.
No, but based on all the other silly limitations the Disciples have, that doesn't matter. I can get a couple of squads of Nurglings or Skull Cannons with my Alpha Legion instead of needing one of each unit for each God first.
But in the Disciples of Belakor, those nurglings will be objective secure units, not so in AL. That’s pretty good.
Tyran wrote: I might be wrong, but Disciples of Belakor doesn't seem to have the 25% PL limit that normal Chaos soup has.
No, but based on all the other silly limitations the Disciples have, that doesn't matter. I can get a couple of squads of Nurglings or Skull Cannons with my Alpha Legion instead of needing one of each unit for each God first.
But in the Disciples of Belakor, those nurglings will be objective secure units, not so in AL. That’s pretty good.
It's just an example. Alpha Legion already have other mobility tricks, so instead of Nurglings you can go a Bloodletter or Daemonette
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Damn, I was so excited for this book to come out. After seeing so many armies get so many cool and unique rules I thought that surely Daemons, an army of chaos and powerful warp abilities, was going to have some really interesting abilities! Wow was I wrong. The codex is so damn bland, there is no benefit to going mono-god and they seem to be trying to shoehorn Daemons into an elite army but they forgot to give them elite stats.
There is so much I want to say but what is the point, the best I can sum up is look at Plaguebearers....
T5 2W 5+/4+ with 2 attacks hitting at S4 AP -2 (Really -1 since everything seems to have AoC) D1 tohit of 6 autowounds all wrapped up in a LD7 package...LD is going to be a killer for this army that is supposed to be about making everyones LD...as bad as theirs? Capped at squads of 10. Poor Bloodletters have it worse.
Squad sizes of 5-20 or even 5-15 would have been sufficient for the troops choices and would fit their updated profiles while giving some 'option' for the units.
The new codex books are moving away from extra stacking abilities, super doctrines, etc--which is good. The benefit of going mono-god is access to god-specific warp storm abilities.
Other than the poor unit sizes for troops, from what I've seen I think this codex looks far better than the previous two daemon books.
The newer books are getting away from stacking abilities and super doctrines? Really? I mean, it's not like we can just look back at the next most recent book release of CSM and see that is just not true. Before that it was chaos knights and imperial knights which are radically different armies from most every other army in the game so I don't really think they fit the mold. Before them was Tyranids which everyone is/was up in arms about how many layering buffs they could get.
This codex looking better than the previous two books means absolutely nothing. Consider that the previous two books could have been absolutely awful but just look at this book through the lens of 9th edition and it just doesn't stack up with them.
Getting access to three god specific warpstorm abilities is nothing compared to what other armies get for going mono-faction. The warpstorm abilities you get as god specific are generally +1 tohit, +1AP or d3/Up to 3 mortal wounds. Slaanesh are the only ones who get some actually decent warpstorm abilities and all it cost them is losing things that used to be standard for the army to become conditional abilities.
EDIT: Just look at the Great Unclean One now. What on earth makes it a daemon of nurgle? It has NO special abilities except for the standard core reroll 1's. The book just looks terribly uninteresting. I don't care much about how powerful it is in the meta but when I look and see there are no special abilities on a lot of units and no army wide special abilities I just feel like I am playing at index level of 8th edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/31 23:34:22
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Damn, I was so excited for this book to come out. After seeing so many armies get so many cool and unique rules I thought that surely Daemons, an army of chaos and powerful warp abilities, was going to have some really interesting abilities! Wow was I wrong. The codex is so damn bland, there is no benefit to going mono-god and they seem to be trying to shoehorn Daemons into an elite army but they forgot to give them elite stats.
There is so much I want to say but what is the point, the best I can sum up is look at Plaguebearers....
T5 2W 5+/4+ with 2 attacks hitting at S4 AP -2 (Really -1 since everything seems to have AoC) D1 tohit of 6 autowounds all wrapped up in a LD7 package...LD is going to be a killer for this army that is supposed to be about making everyones LD...as bad as theirs? Capped at squads of 10. Poor Bloodletters have it worse.
Squad sizes of 5-20 or even 5-15 would have been sufficient for the troops choices and would fit their updated profiles while giving some 'option' for the units.
The new codex books are moving away from extra stacking abilities, super doctrines, etc--which is good. The benefit of going mono-god is access to god-specific warp storm abilities.
Other than the poor unit sizes for troops, from what I've seen I think this codex looks far better than the previous two daemon books.
The newer books are getting away from stacking abilities and super doctrines? Really? I mean, it's not like we can just look back at the next most recent book release of CSM and see that is just not true. Before that it was chaos knights and imperial knights which are radically different armies from most every other army in the game so I don't really think they fit the mold. Before them was Tyranids which everyone is/was up in arms about how many layering buffs they could get.
This codex looking better than the previous two books means absolutely nothing. Consider that the previous two books could have been absolutely awful but just look at this book through the lens of 9th edition and it just doesn't stack up with them.
Getting access to three god specific warpstorm abilities is nothing compared to what other armies get for going mono-faction. The warpstorm abilities you get as god specific are generally +1 tohit, +1AP or d3/Up to 3 mortal wounds. Slaanesh are the only ones who get some actually decent warpstorm abilities and all it cost them is losing things that used to be standard for the army to become conditional abilities.
EDIT: Just look at the Great Unclean One now. What on earth makes it a daemon of nurgle? It has NO special abilities except for the standard core reroll 1's. The book just looks terribly uninteresting. I don't care much about how powerful it is in the meta but when I look and see there are no special abilities on a lot of units and no army wide special abilities I just feel like I am playing at index level of 8th edition.
What are the CSM super doctrines? The extra sub-faction abilities codex books were getting at the end of 8th. The equivalent of iron hands calculated fury or mephrit protocol of the vengeful stars? There aren't even custom traits in the CSM book.
It's more relevant to compare a book with its predecessor to see how the book has changed. Comparing a new book to other books in that edition is more useful for power comparisons, which is what you're doing. Not once did I mention how this book looks powerful in the meta either--again, something you seem to be most concerned with.
I think you're too familiar with ridiculous bloat that you've come to expect it layered in every datasheet and stacked with it in every book. I have a feeling that even if GUO still had feel no pain you'd still be claiming they were bland.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Damn, I was so excited for this book to come out. After seeing so many armies get so many cool and unique rules I thought that surely Daemons, an army of chaos and powerful warp abilities, was going to have some really interesting abilities! Wow was I wrong. The codex is so damn bland, there is no benefit to going mono-god and they seem to be trying to shoehorn Daemons into an elite army but they forgot to give them elite stats.
There is so much I want to say but what is the point, the best I can sum up is look at Plaguebearers....
T5 2W 5+/4+ with 2 attacks hitting at S4 AP -2 (Really -1 since everything seems to have AoC) D1 tohit of 6 autowounds all wrapped up in a LD7 package...LD is going to be a killer for this army that is supposed to be about making everyones LD...as bad as theirs? Capped at squads of 10. Poor Bloodletters have it worse.
Squad sizes of 5-20 or even 5-15 would have been sufficient for the troops choices and would fit their updated profiles while giving some 'option' for the units.
The new codex books are moving away from extra stacking abilities, super doctrines, etc--which is good. The benefit of going mono-god is access to god-specific warp storm abilities.
Other than the poor unit sizes for troops, from what I've seen I think this codex looks far better than the previous two daemon books.
The newer books are getting away from stacking abilities and super doctrines? Really? I mean, it's not like we can just look back at the next most recent book release of CSM and see that is just not true. Before that it was chaos knights and imperial knights which are radically different armies from most every other army in the game so I don't really think they fit the mold. Before them was Tyranids which everyone is/was up in arms about how many layering buffs they could get.
This codex looking better than the previous two books means absolutely nothing. Consider that the previous two books could have been absolutely awful but just look at this book through the lens of 9th edition and it just doesn't stack up with them.
Getting access to three god specific warpstorm abilities is nothing compared to what other armies get for going mono-faction. The warpstorm abilities you get as god specific are generally +1 tohit, +1AP or d3/Up to 3 mortal wounds. Slaanesh are the only ones who get some actually decent warpstorm abilities and all it cost them is losing things that used to be standard for the army to become conditional abilities.
EDIT: Just look at the Great Unclean One now. What on earth makes it a daemon of nurgle? It has NO special abilities except for the standard core reroll 1's. The book just looks terribly uninteresting. I don't care much about how powerful it is in the meta but when I look and see there are no special abilities on a lot of units and no army wide special abilities I just feel like I am playing at index level of 8th edition.
What are the CSM super doctrines? The extra sub-faction abilities codex books were getting at the end of 8th. The equivalent of iron hands calculated fury or mephrit protocol of the vengeful stars? There aren't even custom traits in the CSM book.
It's more relevant to compare a book with its predecessor to see how the book has changed. Comparing a new book to other books in that edition is more useful for power comparisons, which is what you're doing. Not once did I mention how this book looks powerful in the meta either--again, something you seem to be most concerned with.
I think you're too familiar with ridiculous bloat that you've come to expect it layered in every datasheet and stacked with it in every book. I have a feeling that even if GUO still had feel no pain you'd still be claiming they were bland.
What is Let the Galaxy Burn if not the closest thing to the original doctrines from Space Marines that we have to date? Wanton acts are turn dependent buffs that effect certain weapon types based on which act you are currently in. I can not imagine missing a more obvious parallel than Combat Doctrines and Let the Galaxy Burn. I am talking about this from the lens of comparing 9th books to 9th books in terms of content. You are right, CSM were lacking custom traits in their book and it was something that was largely derided as an unfortunate loss.
I am interested in the power level of the book in relation to the meta because I like to actually play games where the outcome isn't decided before I even set a model down on the table. This edition more than ever is so unbalanced when it comes to list building that it is often plain to see who will win before the game is played. Cutting edge competitive list against one another are actually the most balance they have ever been in the history of 40k, which is great...for competitive players. I like to just throw some dice with my friends and family, this leads to situations where one persons thematic fluffy list that doesn't exactly play to the strengths of 9th comes up against another thematic fluffy list that is extremely meta viable.
You last comment is so incredibly ridiculous I don't even know how to address it. GUO losing the one ability that it had is me expecting layers of bloat? I would be ecstatic if Nurgle daemons had kept some form of FNP but that is gone, in its place there is nothing. T9 is the privilege that a GUO gets which is pretty cool but very uninspiring and not very fun to play, it is a static bonus that boils down to essentially a -1 to wound that is strength dependent. Yes, I am peeved that Nurgles special ability was removed in favor of +1T. Mostly though I am annoyed that lesser daemons got reduced to max squad of 10 as if they are an elite unit but they have stats that still reflect a horde unit, with a LD 7 with out ways to manipulate morale test. Somehow warp born monsters are as susceptible to morale as Guardsmen.
I could go on and on with the problems I am seeing already but it doesn't matter, you don't seem to be interested in an actual conversation but just want to snipe at me for not being happy with what I am seeing. In my opinion the codex is unexciting which is probably the worst thing I can say about it. As a primarily chaos player for the past few editions I just don't feel that bit of excitement I got when I looked at the CSM codex or the Chaos Knight codex. I am totally apathetic towards it.
Let the Galaxy Burn is equivalent to Warp Storm. CSM lack the extra doctrine abilities that pre-CSM books have, such as those mentioned in my post above. I mistakenly called them super doctrines, but they're additional rules for the super doctrines. I'm not sure what is the generalist term for them.
What defines a Great Unclean One as not being 'bland' specifically, having feel no pain? Anything else?
In v3.5 nurgle daemons didn't have feel no pain, but they certainly had plenty of character. The Great Unclean One had nurgle's rot--wound nearby enemy on 6's (which is now a psychic power nurgle/GUO has access to) and nurgling infestation--extra d6 s3 attacks (which is now s2 malefic7 in the GUO profile).
None of the abilities daemons had in v3.5 were still around by 8th edition. They were either changed to update with the edition or removed. None of deities were defined specifically by one special rule, such as feel no pain throughout the entirety of 3rd edition (the big edition change in the late 90s) to 8th.
Daemon units with icons and instruments are ld8 and ignore combat attrition modifiers, the same as space marines. They also inherently take fewer morale checks on average compared to guardsmen because their stats are better.
I may disagree with some of your points, but I'm still willing to have a conversation.
I wanted to start daemons some timebago, but restricted myself untill the new codex came out
So i've got the book....
Mono god doesn't give you anything?
A god keyword doesn't give you a thing?
Just 3 warp storm stuff to choose from?
Undivided is only if you take more than 1 god?
Cant have the undivided and you god warpstormvstuff?
But you do have access to all stratas then?
So they are saying take all gods, doesnt matter if you khorne hq goes with daemonets, they just don't buff...
Must say i'm losing interest in daemons.
Also nothing new
I hoped a few new units
Krull wrote: I wanted to start daemons some timebago, but restricted myself untill the new codex came out
So i've got the book....
Mono god doesn't give you anything?
A god keyword doesn't give you a thing?
Just 3 warp storm stuff to choose from?
Undivided is only if you take more than 1 god?
Cant have the undivided and you god warpstormvstuff?
But you do have access to all stratas then?
So they are saying take all gods, doesnt matter if you khorne hq goes with daemonets, they just don't buff...
Must say i'm losing interest in daemons.
Also nothing new
I hoped a few new units
Chaos has gotten nothing decent from GW all year. It's been a pathetic set of releases all around.
Krull wrote: I wanted to start daemons some timebago, but restricted myself untill the new codex came out
So i've got the book....
Mono god doesn't give you anything?
A god keyword doesn't give you a thing?
Just 3 warp storm stuff to choose from?
Undivided is only if you take more than 1 god?
Cant have the undivided and you god warpstormvstuff?
But you do have access to all stratas then?
So they are saying take all gods, doesnt matter if you khorne hq goes with daemonets, they just don't buff...
Must say i'm losing interest in daemons.
Also nothing new
I hoped a few new units
Chaos has gotten nothing decent from GW all year. It's been a pathetic set of releases all around.
Being forced into mono god was bad, but having next to no benefits for going mono god is also bad. Moderation is key, and it is tough to strike a balance between those two extremes. The 40kdevs don't seem to have even tried, I think the nuance was lost and they thought this was what people wanted. Community feedback being so hyperbolized and one-dimensional doesn't help but they really should know better anyways.
Krull wrote: I wanted to start daemons some timebago, but restricted myself untill the new codex came out
So i've got the book....
Mono god doesn't give you anything?
A god keyword doesn't give you a thing?
Just 3 warp storm stuff to choose from?
Undivided is only if you take more than 1 god?
Cant have the undivided and you god warpstormvstuff?
But you do have access to all stratas then?
So they are saying take all gods, doesnt matter if you khorne hq goes with daemonets, they just don't buff...
Must say i'm losing interest in daemons.
Also nothing new
I hoped a few new units
Chaos has gotten nothing decent from GW all year. It's been a pathetic set of releases all around.
I dunno, I'm having a lot of fun with Chaos Knights, the Knight Abominant and new War Dogs are pretty fantastic, and all-around the codex is fairly solid, I would say upper mid-tier. Thousand Sons also got a pretty massive buff thanks to Armor of Contempt (and Death Guard to a lesser extent).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: Being forced into mono god was bad, but having next to no benefits for going mono god is also bad. Moderation is key, and it is tough to strike a balance between those two extremes. The 40kdevs don't seem to have even tried, I think the nuance was lost and they thought this was what people wanted. Community feedback being so hyperbolized and one-dimensional doesn't help but they really should know better anyways.
GW gets what they pay for I guess.
Its ironic - I started in the "mixed god" era, but I actually wanted to play mono-god but with the lack of options recognized that wasn't really feasible because you couldn't really play competitively without mixing.
Then GW forced us into the mono-god era and I absolutely hated it, arguably because they still hadn't really given mono-god lists all the tools they needed to successfully do it.
Now, they have eliminated mono-god again and basically encourage mixed-God play... and I still hate it because I want mono-god to work.
I/GW just can't win lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/03 19:48:13
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
They CAN win--the approach used in AoS has been both popular and successful. The most recent Nurgle book, in particular, does an absolutely outstanding job of selling the narrative of a Nurgle force with its mechanics. That's the thing; you can run Nurgle mortals, Nurgle daemons, or mixed with that book and they all work because there is just the right amount of synergy between mortals to support that side on it's own, synergy between daemons to support that side on it's own, and unit diversity to make mixing them worthwhile.
Mixed daemons, on the other hand, are a completely different set of army abilities which are designed specifically to do mixed daemons with, rather than trying to mash five army identities into one book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/03 22:14:35
Krull wrote: I wanted to start daemons some timebago, but restricted myself untill the new codex came out
So i've got the book....
Mono god doesn't give you anything?
A god keyword doesn't give you a thing?
Just 3 warp storm stuff to choose from?
Undivided is only if you take more than 1 god?
Cant have the undivided and you god warpstormvstuff?
But you do have access to all stratas then?
So they are saying take all gods, doesnt matter if you khorne hq goes with daemonets, they just don't buff...
Must say i'm losing interest in daemons.
Also nothing new
I hoped a few new units
Where does it say you loose the undivided warpstorm abilities if you go mono-god? All I see is rules about gaining the extra three for your chosen god.
NinthMusketeer wrote: They CAN win--the approach used in AoS has been both popular and successful. The most recent Nurgle book, in particular, does an absolutely outstanding job of selling the narrative of a Nurgle force with its mechanics. That's the thing; you can run Nurgle mortals, Nurgle daemons, or mixed with that book and they all work because there is just the right amount of synergy between mortals to support that side on it's own, synergy between daemons to support that side on it's own, and unit diversity to make mixing them worthwhile.
Mixed daemons, on the other hand, are a completely different set of army abilities which are designed specifically to do mixed daemons with, rather than trying to mash five army identities into one book.
Oh yeah, absolutely - but for whatever reason GW doesn't want to do that with 40k
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
NinthMusketeer wrote: They CAN win--the approach used in AoS has been both popular and successful. The most recent Nurgle book, in particular, does an absolutely outstanding job of selling the narrative of a Nurgle force with its mechanics. That's the thing; you can run Nurgle mortals, Nurgle daemons, or mixed with that book and they all work because there is just the right amount of synergy between mortals to support that side on it's own, synergy between daemons to support that side on it's own, and unit diversity to make mixing them worthwhile.
Mixed daemons, on the other hand, are a completely different set of army abilities which are designed specifically to do mixed daemons with, rather than trying to mash five army identities into one book.
Oh yeah, absolutely - but for whatever reason GW doesn't want to do that with 40k
Because the rules writers they hired for 40k suck. That's really it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: They CAN win--the approach used in AoS has been both popular and successful. The most recent Nurgle book, in particular, does an absolutely outstanding job of selling the narrative of a Nurgle force with its mechanics. That's the thing; you can run Nurgle mortals, Nurgle daemons, or mixed with that book and they all work because there is just the right amount of synergy between mortals to support that side on it's own, synergy between daemons to support that side on it's own, and unit diversity to make mixing them worthwhile.
Mixed daemons, on the other hand, are a completely different set of army abilities which are designed specifically to do mixed daemons with, rather than trying to mash five army identities into one book.
Oh yeah, absolutely - but for whatever reason GW doesn't want to do that with 40k
Because the rules writers they hired for 40k suck. That's really it.
On one hand I have a learned reflex for suspicion toward explanations which lack nuance, but I need both hands to dual-wield Occam's and Hanlon's razors.
The book is bland. Warpstorm is where all your flavor is and its an OK mechanic at best. On average you will get 4 Warpstorm points for a whole game turn. None of the abilities feel over the top, which is good. The book pushes you to use at least 2 gods as there is no real incentive to play mono-god. The problem here is you need to pay for Detachments of gods. You can, of course, play Disciples of Be'lakor but that comes with its own set of issues.
What I haven't seen anyone mention is that this is the only codex with no faction secondary objectives.
It feels more like "Here's an ally codex for CSM. Have fun." It just feels...meh.
I will say the book layout is fantastic though. Crusade AFTER all the unit entries and each god getting their own section was a wonderful idea.
