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I'm sure their very weary of Siocast being a proprietary machine. Pivoting to a strategy reliant on one specific company is what burned them in the first place, even if at the moment it seems like a really great solution.

 Overread wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I figure its the upfront costs and being burned in the past by factories in China/overseas. They don't want to revisit a plan that failed in the past and they perhaps don't have the money to hand to invest into Siocast machines off the back of current Warmachine sales.

Certainly that plays a part.

We've seen lot of Kickstarters that produced goods in China are asking (or demanding) more money from their backers AND taking huge losses because the prices both for transport and for production have skyrocketed. That cuts a massive hole in Privateer Press' plastic strategy.

3D printing has some real advantages- especially in smaller volume.

In fairness for the KS that's because many of them started before/at the start of the Pandemic and since then the prices skyrocketed. When you consider that a lot of KS often run very tight margins to get a low price to get loads of customers; its understandable that many are suddenly having to ask for more or cut features or the estimated shipping is way higher than advertised. I honestly don't blame them, its really something they couldn't predict nor control and its hitting pretty much everyone. Even big names like GW are having issues getting stock moved around and that's for a big name doing regular releases on a weekly setup.

but yep I can 100% see why a firm which has had issues in the past; has a current franchise that's pretty big and doesn't appear to have lots of resources; would want to avoid the nightmare of international shipping as much as they can.

I don't blame the Kickstarter companies for asking for more money (though some have done this far better than others). I just think it is indicative that business expenses for making games is going up.

Retail games also run on super thin margins, so we should be expecting price increases (or value decreases) all around.

They really need this reboot to have good initial reception though, cheaping out and producing models that get broken en route to being delivered to your house would not bode well for them... especially with how quick negative reviews spread online nowadays.

They NEED to have a really strong rollout on this.

If the new material is crap and stuff is broken all to hell- if it goes like Games Workshop's Finecast rollout- then Privateer Press is finished.

Really though, my prediction was that PP would team up with Mythic like they did for Mon Poc, which turned out to be a huge success. Using Mythics contacts to get everything made in china and also take advantage of Mythics marketing abilities, as well as Kickstarter, to launch a new edition and get a lot of new eyes on the product. I Honestly think that could have worked out well for them, even with splitting the profits. Though, this is Matt Wilson's baby, you can see the passion/emotion entwined in his writing in that article, its obvious that he still cares dearly for this game, perhaps he didn't want to share the responsibility of its success or failure with another entity , which is understandable.

I wonder if that's still going well behind the scenes. PP moved to plastic because the prices of tin fluctuated- right now the prices on Chinese plastic manufacturing are fluctuating unreliably as well.

I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.

I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!

This all makes sense given their strategic footing. It's a poorly capitalized company facing threats from above in the form of much larger organizations and below with an increasing proliferation of more nimble competitors.

I wish them luck, but I thought the shot at GW was kind of gross. GW has advantages to be sure, but they also made wise investments. They moved to digital design workflows early on, and invested in their own manufacturing capabilities which has given them more control, better margins, and a superior product.

At the height of its popularity PP was trying to make a AAA-quality game and the founder was in LA trying to make movies. They took their eye off the ball and invested poorly.

Psychopomp wrote:I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.

I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!

Which is why it's important to keep in mind this following quote :

LunarSol wrote:I think some of the confusion is that people see 3D printing and assume we're talking about selling STL files and making people print them themselves. That's not at all what's happening here.

Because that's the point : it's not "3D printing community friendly", it's all about minimizing their costs at their level and putting it all on others - the hypothetical fools who would want to invest in this new "3d printing distribution service".

I think the most blatant weak point in this "new strategy" is the following key question : who would like to still invest in distributing PP products that way, given all their spectacular failures in the past AND the current conjuncture ? That's NFT crypto bro level of belief, here.

Hard pass for me. It really looks like there's only a skeleton left of Privateer Press and it's just trying to milk a thin cow with only bones under the skin to see how much milk they can get before it finally dies. I know I'm really harsh here, but honestly I can't see it otherwise.

Thing is who has to invest into it? Chances are PP will contract with people who are already running 3D printing firms. All PP has to do is ensure those firms can get printed material for packaging.
After that the game elements are either your standard dice, terrain and rulers and such (sold everywhere); the app for all the rules.


So in theory this is really low investment. By using local hubs PP can sell things potentially directly through their website via the local hubs or those local hubs can sell direct through their own channels. PP can cut out the retailers and sell direct; then they can also use what relationships they do still have - eg in the UK they still have places like Wayland and Firestorm - both of which are big and far reaching - to keep products on the shelf.


Yes they most likely do have to rebuild bridges and relationships; but if they can already move manufacture around they might be able to supply stores direct without having to go through a distributor. Because now the product is being made in the same country rather than half a world away and such.

There is great potential here IF they can manage it right .

 Overread wrote:
Thing is who has to invest into it? Chances are PP will contract with people who are already running 3D printing firms.

Yeah, and why would these people have to bother with Privateer Press at all ? Paying for a brand that's worth nothing nowadays ?

Heh, better to keep using .stl files from patreons and the likes, thanks. It's certainly much cheaper and less bothersome that way to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

There is great potential here IF they can manage it right .

Thing is, when you keep the same head at the top, it won't suddenly change its way because you hope it will manage it right.

It just won't happen. They're the same who did all the failures of the past. Why would you think they'll do great in the future ? And most importantly : why would anyone having experienced these failures want to give them a second chance at all ? Especially when the community left is so small and meaningless on the miniature wargame market now...

 Psychopomp wrote:
I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.

I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!

So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.

Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Psychopomp wrote:
I think the switch to 3D print production is a good idea, except for one issue.

I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand. That's why I bought a 3D printer in the first place!

So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.

Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?

And that's why this new strategy will fail miserably.

Because whatever price they will ask for the "right to print their premium branded miniature", it will be way too much for what it's worth.

People don't seem to understand just how massive the competition is on the market of 3D printing files nowadays.

What new strategy? Making miniatures and selling them? You know that it's the production method and not the distribution methods that's changing?

 Azreal13 wrote:
What new strategy? Making miniatures and selling them? You know that it's the production method and not the distribution methods that's changing?

Yes, exactly, that's the point. Why do you think GW did not it before, like many others ?

Because they know that that way, the brand loses value.

That's the price of making others produce for you "to reduce costs". You lose control. Not even talking about the massive repercussions when lower quality is produced by these new distributions...you think PP will have the ressources to control quality on every of them ? Hah ! Fat chance.

Well my impression was that they're setting up their own facilities, so, if that's the case, yes I do.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well my impression was that they're setting up their own facilities, so, if that's the case, yes I do.

Then you didn't know Spartan Games when they were around.

Anyway, so far, it's just thin air. If you think it's enough to invest in it for the future...well, good luck to you, that's all I can say.

Oh, are we allowed to use completely unrelated things to support our argument?

Pineapple, bus, cat flap.

I win!

Frankly I think if they have so few customers they decided to rely on 3D-printing, then their days are seriously numbered.

Sarouan wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well my impression was that they're setting up their own facilities, so, if that's the case, yes I do.

Then you didn't know Spartan Games when they were around.

Anyway, so far, it's just thin air. If you think it's enough to invest in it for the future...well, good luck to you, that's all I can say.

Yes, it's "thin air"...because it's an announcement of intentions.

There is one more aspect to 3D printing production that bears mentioning: we will have the ability to replicate our production capabilities locally in overseas markets, solving the current issues around the accessibility of WARMACHINE products internationally. We are currently exploring several options that will allow us to create a facility in Europe, for instance, that will supply the miniatures within the EU, avoiding costly shipping expenses and tariffs, and ensuring quick and reliable access to the products. And in theory, we can do this everywhere.

So it doesn't look like they want to just contract it out. They want to establish their own facilities.

It's a little more than intentions given they're having product available at GenCon with a full launch in a couple months. They've obviously got something going already, though they're also clearly broadcasting some hopeful growth strategies.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, are we allowed to use completely unrelated things to support our argument?

Pineapple, bus, cat flap.

I win!

Heh, fair enough !

But seriously, honestly...why would you trust a company that failed so much with their previous edition and yet kept doubling down on it as it kept sinking, when they come back with this "new edition" out of their hat like nothing happened ?

That's really the key problem here. All retailers selling Warmachine / Horde have been quite hurt because of that, but now it's okay, everything will be fine with this whole new game with new production methods ? No, honestly, I just can't see it. I can't see them trusting PP on this one and help them selling.

But maybe that's because I'm a very old player who have known Warmachine / Horde in its golden age and was badly hurt when it fell so hard. Maybe new players who never knew that will be okay and they'll have a whole wave of new retailers happy to do business with them for the first time.

In some ways, I wish they hadn't mentioned 3d printing at all. They could've just said "new resin production methods" and still done what they plan on doing, and there wouldn't be as much misinformed reaction to it. As has been stated by them, and in this thread over and over again, they are not distributing digital files to be printed by end consumers. They are not doing the Patreon-style or MyMiniFactory thing. They're just replacing their traditional resin casting with direct 3d printing. I wouldn't be surprised that had they not said anything about it, when the final products got out people for the most part wouldn't have known the difference.

I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.

I was just on the verge of starting Trollbloods, so I've kinda got a forced wait and see period regardless.

I'll probably still go ahead and fill out a (current edition) 25pt force to give me something to muck about with, mostly for weeks when there's an odd number of a preferred game and I can flex into playing something else, but I'll be cautious about expansion. Not because I'm in the least bothered about playing a dead game (Guild Ball is still my game of choice) but I won't be buying existing models until I know they're useful.

 Valander wrote:


I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.

Hmmm...well, if PP aknowledge that they're not a major player in miniature wargames like they were in the past and they're "just" another small company, I recognize that yes, they can.

But I really don't think they are that humbled by their previous experience and still believe their brand is so popular they can still sell it the same price GW charges their customers.

Sarouan wrote:

 Valander wrote:


I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.

Hmmm...well, if PP aknowledge that they're not a major player in miniature wargames like they were in the past and they're "just" another small company, I recognize that yes, they can.

But I really don't think they are that humbled by their previous experience and still believe their brand is so popular they can still sell it the same price GW charges their customers.

I'm not gonna disagree with you on the ego problem that you highlight. Having known several folks who worked there and heard stories about upper management, there definitely seemed to be a "we can do no wrong" kind of attitude. Of course, since then, the company's been chopped down to like 1/3 the size it was, so maybe they have learned something, maybe not. I guess time will tell.

 Azreal13 wrote:


So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.

Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?

Yes, that is what I want, and I acknowledge that. That is why I've switched over to miniature-agnostic rulesets and most of my hobby spending (though not all) is via Patreon and MyMiniFactory (and Cults3D, CGTrade, etc, etc) these days.

My point is, with a digital only rules release and 3D print production...they're not offering me anything over the systems I'm spending money on these days other than the inconvenience of buying THEIR prints, one at a time, at a significant premium compared to other small-shop manufacturers working in other mediums. As such, I'm very unlikely to come back to Warmahordes unless there's also the option to purchase STLs, because I've already got more systems than I can get to these days that offer that convenience.

I'm pointing out a possible challenge with this new setup, and acknowledging that I don't have an answer for it. I don't think they could maintain the overhead required to remain a physical production company and sell the STLs for my use. However, the solution isn't going to be to try and sell me a starter army that they printed for approximately 2 1/2 months of my Patreon fees, because I'm not interested. I can do 3D printed miniature gaming better with other systems already.

Sarouan wrote:

 Valander wrote:


I think it's an interesting strategy, and time will tell whether PP can pull it off. I think there's potential for it to be successful. But at the same time, I also recognize that PP has, in the past, made some other missteps and so whether or not they can pull this off is an open question for sure. There are other smaller companies (and even some semi-medium ones) that already do this, and fairly successfully, so it's not as big a "shot in the dark" as it may seem.

Hmmm...well, if PP aknowledge that they're not a major player in miniature wargames like they were in the past and they're "just" another small company, I recognize that yes, they can.

But I really don't think they are that humbled by their previous experience and still believe their brand is so popular they can still sell it the same price GW charges their customers.

Frankly I doubt they're even a "small" company by now, they seem to have basically no customers.

Rules drop imminent... could we see alternate activations for the first time in WM?

Also, just confirmed by the dev of the app, that there will be a function to print the stats cards out for those who are opposed to app use in their wargames.

 Overread wrote:

Yep but even resin casting is faster than 3D printing. A single build plate for something like a tank, titan or dragon could take 24 hours or longer with 3D printing and it gives you 1 product per 1 machine. A bigger machine might let you get two or three off (depending on sizes). Again for smaller scale production 3D printing works great; but when you scale things up casting generally comes out on top for volume.

True, though 3d printing would help with some of Forgeworld's infamous problems such as worn-out molds, broken or lost masters, mold slips and warps making castings unusable, and so on. And it would allow certain components to be produced with more undercuts or three-dimensional structure since there's no requirement for the piece to be removable from a silicone mold. I would love to know if a large-format 3D printer could print a titan in a comparable time to how they're currently cast by hand (which is in itself a process with an enormous amount of downtime and fiddly bits), but FW doesn't share the kind of data about their production process that would make the comparison possible to calculate.

I don't believe FW would ever do it, of course.

 Psychopomp wrote:


I own a 3D printer. I don't want to buy a box of 3D printed parts, I want to buy an STL - perhaps even at a premium, given its multiple use - and handle my own production to my own demand.

Realistically, the only STLs you'll ever get are going to come from people with absolutely no means of exploiting them, or from charity. No one else will ever sell you the hen.

 anab0lic wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 anab0lic wrote:
RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.

Which brings another concern. Looking at PP past they seem to favour errr dubious quality casting materials.
A company in this position of cutting costs, deleting Production and poor quality control track record does raise many concerns about the quality you will probably get. Mind we know prices will remain high though.


For me the biggest blow is the current model range being abandoned, thats never good IMO.

Not entirely sure what the price difference is between default resin and the more durable stuff... perhaps someone could shed some light on this. They really need this reboot to have good initial reception though, cheaping out and producing models that get broken en route to being delivered to your house would not bode well for them... especially with how quick negative reviews spread online nowadays.

About twice as much in the consumer market. $40/Liter for regular stuff that you'd use for high detail then $60-$100 for the more durable depending on what you want. The most expensive on that list can survive vulcanization but it's probably not what you'd use for wargaming, but I've not tried it as I've never had a need.

PP are where they are due to their past mistakes. With that in mind I’m not sure what else they could have done other than this, but so much needs to go right with this plan in order for it to be a success. The odds of it all coming together are hugely slim.

Getting the app to work smoothly for everything they want to do with it is an endeavour in itself that cannot be underestimated. It’s a big step beyond what they’ve done up until now, and as there’s no printed media, it is absolutely critical. Even a delayed release (which is pretty normal for even simple apps) will kill them.

Full manufacturing via 3d printing. I’m not seeing it being capable of doing the volume needed IF they are successful. If the game is great and inspiring and again they can’t get product onto shelves quickly enough then they’re screwed. I mean they’re releasing in a few months and they’re “currently exploring options a create a facility in Europe”. Those 3D printers should be going Brrrr right now, not being explored for some indeterminate time in the future.

That combination of "3d printed Miniatures" and "Rules digital only" smells like a cheap "we don't want to do much or maintain a tabletop game" move.

I doubt they will successfull with that concept.

Why mess arround with miniatures, just turm WM MkIV in a complete digital game without miniatures.